wing chun vs muai thai

[ShotoNoob]

Your analysis is correct about the countering the 2nd exchange. That's pretty much what I did. I would have create another thread in order to show that. I don't want to take this topic off too far off course. This is the end result of the technique I was working on that day. It looks like it's just a hook, but it's not. The technique is what got me there. Also take notice of the placement of the hook. This is why I don't blast people in sparring. I've been hit with the same technique before and I'm not ashamed to admit that I was happy that my partner didn't put power into the punch. I kept using the same technique on everyone because I wanted them to catch on and to be able to defend against it. This means that I have to be able to alter a technique slightly in order to keep it effective. It's one of those techniques that you can block one way and feel safe, only to have it hit you in the same place by slightly altering it.

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I see how you are using the sparring to define & refine technique. I do that before I even think of sparring... Your approach is the much more common approach, though I don't endorse or follow such. You do clearly show how active sparring can be used to develop & up one's skills. The Jai Harman vids don't show the intelligence of your training approach @ all.... pretty much degenerating & deteriorating into your post & comment below, TMA wise that is...

Even though I let my mental guard down, I can't deny that she took advantage of that and did a good job at it. I have to be humble enough to acknowledge that as well as accept that I failed myself when I let my guard down mentally. It was a good learning experience so in that light the sparring match was a good one. I got about a year's worth of improvement with that technique by sparring with them.

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As a strict traditionalist, the mental dimension is dominant &overriding.... This is one of the lessons in my much earlier posts on other MT threads regarding the opening step(s) of traditional karate kata.... which kung fu forms have a similar but more involved openings, TMU. No one here has grasped that lesson.... Hence, the mental focus is missing and the traditional forms movements become hollow & false in their effect & intent... Same goes for basics & fighting drills such as 1-steps.... Mental discipline in TMA is paramount and this maxim can never be violated.... The reality of TMA is that your mind had better be working in a disciplined manner.... there's your TMA reality test...

The difference between Jai Harman and the woman I sparred with, is that his attitude is all about winning even when his skill level is higher than his opponent. It shows in the way he spars and the type of videos he posts. Both of our schools were there to improve our skills. It never ever become about winning. So in that light I can appreciate someone using a technique on me and being successful with it.

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Always good to have goal posts and reality testing. I believe in the traditional preparation as paramount: kihon, kata, kumite centered on 1-steps and the like.... I appreciate those higher skilled than myself, which I divide into 2 camps: better natural abilities (plenty) and better TMA (far fewer). On that kung fu instructor I spoke about, I gave myself 3 years (at that time) until I could match him.... on a probable basis.... still wide open question.... And that would assume a higher than average intensity of training.... I would definitely be pushed to my limits. Remember... he was a solid forms (not sparring) proponent.... In TMA, it tends to be the really solid kung fu stylists in my area that I can see I can't handle.... most karate guys I can beat or match....

Jai Harman only cares about winning so me sparring against him would be more aggressive and I wouldn't care if he learned anything from the experience or not. This is attitude is good for competition or actual fighting but not good for skill development.

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Yeah, the woman student the head instructor asked me to help prepare for her belt test, turned the match into a tournament.... karate skill development (& and my unguarded attitude) were thrown out the window. YOu hit the nail on the head, TMA wise or even good sport training wise... too much stress and the mind cannot learn effectively.... let alone integrate with the body functioning....

I wouldn't have any problem with telling the guys I spar with how I was exploiting their openings, but I wouldn't do the same with Jai. He doesn't have that type of respect from me, based on what I see in the video. It's his right to be that way so I'm not saying he's wrong for being that way. It's just that it's not a good learning method for me.

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Well, I don;t train with guys like Jai... 'cause it just degenerates into a contest..... then I am forced to literally destroy the opponent rather than let them use me as a punching bag...plus always risk of injury when things escalate. In fact, I try to avoid free sparring most of the time.... reserving it for belt tests alone is my preference.... or occasional reality testing.... Guys like Jai do make an excellent reality test for mentally disciplined TMA, when that is appropriate... Other than that, I could care less about getting in the ring and showing I can slug it out or not.... I walk away from the Jai-like guys unless it's formal testing.... then I take 'em out.... pissing some off to no end....
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What I'd like to see is that kung fu instructor I mentioned earlier who challenged me (inappropriately) take out some of his frustration and need to demonstrate, do so against a Jai Harman.... I have no doubt that kung fu instructor could flatten many an opponent having Jai Harman skill sets.... Put these two together who feel the need to prove to others they can fight. I know that kung fu instructor is for real, I don't need to test it.... what i do need to do is train it.... that's why I was in his kung fu class...

 

[ShotoNoob]

Out of that entire video this is what I noticed the most. Jai clearly had more skills to the point where he could have easily demonstrated good Wing Chun or good Muay Thai, or good Kickboxing skills and technique, but he didn't do it. Instead he just freestyle attacked the guy. He did a little bit of boxing, a little bit of Muay Thai, a little bit of show boating and none of it really showing an ability of technique. Things like punching with elbows out and only generating power with the arms really stood out to me.

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Here's my kumite training approach illustrated by an instructor who has my personality and appearance... though formally he is much more impressive...

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The point is not the hard physical form we see outwardly in Shotokan. The point is the mental discipline it takes to execute these tactics in real time.... developed through the 1-step process.... Once the mental facilities are developed to a high level... then the minor adjustments you speak of in your sparring training, can be made instantaneously & precisely to meet any adaptation or adjustment of the technique by the opponent...
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Of course the smart aleck answers to my posts apparent by some above indicate those like minded will never acquire the mental discipline to become accomplished at TMA. They belong with Jai & Co., duk-ing it out.... and no amount of belts or supposed training of different fighting styles will ever overcome their fundamental lack of mental discipline.
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Jai boys, good luck with that....
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EDIT: Note that the instructor employs a karate guard which transitions into technique for both defense & offense. Note that the instructor moves in response to the action of the opponent, transitions into stances which tactically change his location. Note that the techniques serve a tactical purpose and work together.... Note that the instructor expects you to listen & think about what the 1-step is accomplishing, instead of the kind of responses I just received above which are just rhetoric and don't address the principles this instructor is attempting to convey.... The Jai kind of martial artist is going to be drawn to rhetoric and the kind of training exhibited in his vids, and he is going to have loads of company..... but it is not TMA which is truly represented by the Shotokan instructor in my YT vid.

 

[ShotoNoob]

Out of that entire video this is what I noticed the most. Jai clearly had more skills to the point where he could have easily demonstrated good Wing Chun or good Muay Thai, or good Kickboxing skills and technique, but he didn't do it. Instead he just freestyle attacked the guy. He did a little bit of boxing, a little bit of Muay Thai, a little bit of show boating and none of it really showing an ability of technique. Things like punching with elbows out and only generating power with the arms really stood out to me.

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Ya know I can readily point how how karate fighters in MMA make the same kind of mistakes.... Wonderboy, who is pretty much tearing up the MMA competition, makes major traditional karate mistakes all the time.... there's a couple of great highlight YT vids out on Wonderboy. His only MMA loss is to Matt Brown, not unsurprisingly to me, a Muay Thai stylist....
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When Matt Brown really comes on strong, you can see Wonderboy at a loss with his sport karate with what to do... and starts head movement, ducking, backing up, etc. Is that what the Shotokan instructor does in my Shotokan 1-step video from YT? hell no! The difference is having the mental discipline to stand & fight with that mental discipline in a deliberate & precise manner, defending, hitting strong & hitting hard at an earmarked target. Wonderboy's sport karate is lacking in mental discipline, evident against Matt Brown. That is the big lesson in the Shotokan karate style (super - over- emphasized), for all it's faults and unattractive qualities.... Get that big lesson correct, and Matt Brown will be stopped in his tracks.... the fact that Shotokan is far from perfect in many regards won't really matter.
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A truly good Shotokan karateka traditionalist will knock the Jai Harman's of the world right out of the ring....IMO The trick is to become a truly mentally disciplined karate fighter... or CMA, etc... Putting that Shotokan instructor's lesson into action can't be done by physical training; it's only done by concerted mental training.... led by angels like me...
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Hasty Edit: Strike "me" and replace with "the YT Vid Shotokan karate instructor."

 

[ShotoNoob]

Out of that entire video this is what I noticed the most. Jai clearly had more skills to the point where he could have easily demonstrated good Wing Chun or good Muay Thai, or good Kickboxing skills and technique, but he didn't do it. Instead he just freestyle attacked the guy. He did a little bit of boxing, a little bit of Muay Thai, a little bit of show boating and none of it really showing an ability of technique. Things like punching with elbows out and only generating power with the arms really stood out to me.

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If i look at your counter... a hook-like punch from the outside... it's more akin to boxing, or kenpo tactics... which kempo to me is applied kung fu. What I propose is more straightforward... akin to what the Shotokan Instructor shows in his 2nd embedded 1-step Video selection within the YT video.
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The relevance to Wing Chun, is if the Jai Harman's can't begin to exhibit the discipline of Shotokan karate done well.... then how in the world can those in his shoes hope to accomplish something as sophisticated as Wing Chun kung fu which to me is Shotokan karate discipline x 50? It's no wonder we don't see competent WC or WC succeed in MMA, cause it's just to hard for Mr. Sporting Competitor to fathom, let alone muster the mental training to accomplish traditional WC kung fu. It's no wonder we see those who have claimed to have skill in WC actually end up exhibiting what we see Jai Harman do in his YT vid.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I have no doubt that kung fu instructor could flatten many an opponent having Jai Harman skill sets

No instructor needed. I don't see why a kung fu student that knows how to apply their technique would have a problem sparring against him.

I also understand what you are saying about the mental training. My school has a training session where we one student attacks with a '10 hit combo" while the other student is there defending or taking cover in a guard. The purpose of the 10 hit combo isn't to hurt so there is no danger of injury. The purpose of the 10 hit combo is to be a distraction to focus. We use this drill to train focus, get rid of the fear of being hit, and train the ability to see through "flying fists".

In the video from the Original post you can see where the fighter mentally falls apart where the combos start coming in. He goes from thinking about fighting to trying not to get hit. He was beaten so mentally that he was still covering as if he was being hit even though Jai had stopped punching.

If i look at your counter... a hook-like punch from the outside... it's more akin to boxing

yes it definitely does look that way but there's a difference in how we throw it and the parts of the fist that we use. Other than that the only two people that would notice the difference is the one throwing it and the one receiving it. Even to me looking at the images it looks like a boxer's hook. People probably wouldn't recognize it if they saw it used in a form.

 

[guy b.]

The relevance to Wing Chun, is if the Jai Harman's can't begin to exhibit the discipline of Shotokan karate done well.... then how in the world can those in his shoes hope to accomplish something as sophisticated as Wing Chun kung fu which to me is Shotokan karate discipline x 50? It's no wonder we don't see competent WC or WC succeed in MMA, cause it's just to hard for Mr. Sporting Competitor to fathom, let alone muster the mental training to accomplish traditional WC kung fu. It's no wonder we see those who have claimed to have skill in WC actually end up exhibiting what we see Jai Harman do in his YT vid.

I think Jai Harman probably does have skill in wing chun.

Wing chun training is not at all like one step karate sparring. There is a metal method but I wouldn't say it is 50 times more difficult than karate's method to internalise. In fact, since it actually works, I would say that it is easier. Wing chun is quite simple to understand. More difficult to do it well. A matter of practise more than anything else.

 

[ShotoNoob]

No instructor needed. I don't see why a kung fu student that knows how to apply their technique would have a problem sparring against him.

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By your philosophy, you are perfectly correct. The premise, however, is your philosophy. I tried to state that I recognize your philosophy and approach to sparring in my posts... probably got lost in my long-winded prose.... So by your perspective, by all means proceeds that way....

I also understand what you are saying about the mental training. My school has a training session where we one student attacks with a '10 hit combo" while the other student is there defending or taking cover in a guard. The purpose of the 10 hit combo isn't to hurt so there is no danger of injury. The purpose of the 10 hit combo is to be a distraction to focus. We use this drill to train focus, get rid of the fear of being hit, and train the ability to see through "flying fists".

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Well it's nice to see a formal recognition of the issue, the mental dimension. I differ in that yours is a pressure testing scenario, controlled tightly of course. I've never really engaged in such mental conditioning exercises as you describe. I built my mental discipline without pressure testing and it's become very, very strong. I use the approach described by the Shotokan master instructor in my YT vid on Shotokan 1-steps, and the additional embedded Shotokan vids in that vid, if you want more material, examples....
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This is of course problematic, if not impossible to convey over the internet.... what I am saying can only point to the concept. The mental discipline strength that I am talking about is wholly internally generated... no outside influence is necessary.... Hence, this is why I can agree in principle with the kung fu instructor, that the gentleman who really mastered 1 kungfu form becomes unbeatable by those who haven't mastered the same level of mental discipline it took to actually master that form.... and kung fu forms are chocked with substance about building mental discipline... A major by-product of that strong mental discipline is KIME,or focus, or even a broader interpretation.... which is what you are also after in your 'pressure testing' exercise I've quoted above...

In the video from the Original post you can see where the fighter mentally falls apart where the combos start coming in. He goes from thinking about fighting to trying not to get hit. He was beaten so mentally that he was still covering as if he was being hit even though Jai had stopped punching.

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EXCELLENT interpretation of the problem statement. The mental collapse you speak of is actually on several fronts.... including on not having clue how to fight.... he's basically a victim in my book.... traditional karate prepares winners, not victims... by an arduous and long-term training regimen. of which free sparring is minor portion.... Here, Jai's opponent is forced back into the animal-like protective state.... the reverse end of the spectrum by TMA training theory....
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Check out a Wonderboy (kenpo karate base) vs. Matt Brown (Muay Thai, BJJ base) UFC highlight... you're the sparring aficionado....Wonderboy for all his experience sparring and actually competing (>100 tournament matches), for all his Kenpo black-belt karate training by his dad,,,, ends up many-a-time looking just like Jai's befuddled opponent.... at a loss, on the run, getting his head pounded in, knocked to the ground.... all in the face of Matt Brown's aggressive Muay Thai... Same problem, not enough mental discipline.... Nothing wrong with Wonderboy's ability (as a general proposition) to kick and punch. But against a truly tough opponent who can stand & bang, personified by Matt Brown.... Wonderboy is time & again mentally on the losing end through out that fight....
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Now kenpo karate IMO is much more sophisticated than the Shotokan karate I posted in the Instructor-led 1-step vid. Caveat is, it also takes then more mental discipline to effect. The lesson of the Shotokan 1-step vid is that it is more effective to do a simple defense & linear strike or two with strong mental disciple in the face of Matt Brown than just rely on physicality & good tactical gambits (Wonderboy) that Brown is strong enough to stand up to and come again onto you. Wonderboy's athletics & mental capability has worked superbly against his other MMA competiton to date... but they are the pretty standard MMA quality which means comparatively weak striking & definitely weak mental discipline....
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The Wonderboy / Matt Brown UFC fight makes a great sparring / reality testing case study....

yes it definitely does look that way but there's a difference in how we throw it and the parts of the fist that we use. Other than that the only two people that would notice the difference is the one throwing it and the one receiving it. Even to me looking at the images it looks like a boxer's hook. People probably wouldn't recognize it if they saw it used in a form.

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Well, I'm not an expert on your style... but I'm aware of such nuances.... The greater lesson I take from your illustration of that counter is that your opponents are too into landing a scoring blow,,, and not much else... The Shotokan Instructor in his series on the 1-steps specifically addresses this issue, as does all the karate kata, kihon technique exercises,strictly speaking.... Most students at my dojo, and instructors too can't really apply the 1-step principles well.... it's a mental process & they are too physical.... Hence, we have the shift to your approach of learning in actual sparring....

 

[ShotoNoob]

I think Jai Harman probably does have skill in wing chun.

Wing chun training is not at all like one step karate sparring. There is a metal method but I wouldn't say it is 50 times more difficult than karate's method to internalise. In fact, since it actually works, I would say that it is easier. Wing chun is quite simple to understand. More difficult to do it well. A matter of practise more than anything else.

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A new poster. Hmmm. Jai may well have experience with the WC style. I would say WC is way, way, way more mentally dependent than the japanese-like karates..... and that's why in my book,,, WC we see applied publicly is typically a massive fail 'cause the practitioner like Jai can't really do it to CMA standards.... We see alot of cut & paste of physical WC form which is pretty much vulnerable to the boxer or street fighter....not CMA WC....
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And I don't believe wing chun is simple to understand.... it's a specialized style of kung fu, and kung is very very sophisticated and complex in the mental dimension.... karate doesn't really measure up to kung fu mentally... though it can approach....
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Obviously WC can be practical.... and one can develop a practical WC form on athletics alone.... but it's not TMA, let alone WC.
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Unless you are wiling to become a disciple of an Ip Man-type master and complete the regimen to that standard.... WC is not for MMA or even a realistic alternative to traditional karate...IMHO.

 

[guy b.]

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A new poster. Hmmm. Jai may well have experience with the WC style. I would say WC is way, way, way more mentally dependent than the japanese-like karates..... and that's why in my book,,, WC we see applied publicly is typically a massive fail 'cause the practitioner like Jai can't really do it to CMA standards.... We see alot of cut & paste of physical WC form which is pretty much vulnerable to the boxer or street fighter....not CMA WC....
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And I don't believe wing chun is simple to understand.... it's a specialized style of kung fu, and kung is very very sophisticated and complex in the mental dimension.... karate doesn't really measure up to kung fu mentally... though it can approach....
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Obviously WC can be practical.... and one can develop a practical WC form on athletics alone.... but it's not TMA, let alone WC.
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Unless you are wiling to become a disciple of an Ip Man-type master and complete the regimen to that standard.... WC is not for MMA or even a realistic alternative to traditional karate...IMHO.

I'm not a new poster.

What do you know about wing chun? I don't see the relevance of karate anecdotes.

Wing chun is extremely simple to understand, there is no mystery. It just takes a lot of work to translate into reality

 

[ShotoNoob]

HERE'S CMA WING CHUN (SUPER NIFTY UNIFORMS)DRILLING:
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NOW IMAGE USING THIS AGAINST JAI HARMAN'S KICKBOXING....

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Here's my points:
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1. This is way more sophisticated and potentially effective compared to the rigid strength-based Shotokan 1Step YT Vid I posted.
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2. The mental discipline to muster this kind of skill for combat, what's required if off the charts compared to the simple block/ strike of karate... Do we Jai looking like this in the ring.... wonder why... pause for thought....
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3. JA gOW, we don't see all the head movement, body twisting, applied parrying typical in your form. That's because the mental discipline of the mind once WC strong.... can perform these drills in real combat.... .good luck on getting your mind strong enough to actualize these WC techniques....
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4. The design of these WC techniques & tactics will wipe out Jai Harman kickboxer. So why doesn't this happen.... Because developing the true WC base is a humongous task compared to Jai Harman's good kickboxing.... Could either of the demo people in this WC vid actively compete against Jai Harman.... we just don't see it happening.... what we see is Jai Harmon like kickboxers competing against Jai Harmon-like kickboxers.... 'cause it's so much more readily done....

 

[ShotoNoob]

I'm not a new poster.

What do you know about wing chun? I don't see the relevance of karate anecdotes.

Wing chun is extremely simple to understand, there is no mystery. It just takes a lot of work to translate into reality

I'm not a new poster.

What do you know about wing chun? I don't see the relevance of karate anecdotes.

Wing chun is extremely simple to understand, there is no mystery. It just takes a lot of work to translate into reality

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Well ok then... you and Jai take it away....

 

[guy b.]

HERE'S CMA WING CHUN (SUPER NIFTY UNIFORMS)DRILLING:
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NOW IMAGE USING THIS AGAINST JAI HARMAN'S KICKBOXING....

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Here's my points:
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1. This is way more sophisticated and potentially effective compared to the rigid strength-based Shotokan 1Step YT Vid I posted.

This is your example of good wing chun?!?

2. The mental discipline to muster this kind of skill for combat, what's required if off the charts compared to the simple block/ strike of karate... Do we Jai looking like this in the ring.... wonder why... pause for thought....

This won't work anywhere ever

3. JA gOW, we don't see all the head movement, body twisting, applied parrying typical in your form. That's because the mental discipline of the mind once WC strong.... can perform these drills in real combat.... .good luck on getting your mind strong enough to actualize these WC techniques....

What's "your form"?

4. The design of these WC techniques & tactics will wipe out Jai Harman kickboxer. So why doesn't this happen.... Because developing the true WC base is a humongous task compared to Jai Harman's good kickboxing.... Could either of the demo people in this WC vid actively compete against Jai Harman.... we just don't see it happening.... what we see is Jai Harmon like kickboxers competing against Jai Harmon-like kickboxers.... 'cause it's so much more readily done....

Jai Harman is not a kickboxer.

 

[guy b.]

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Well ok then... you and Jai take it away....

You don't seem to know much about wing chun?

 

[JowGaWolf]

By your philosophy, you are perfectly correct. The premise, however, is your philosophy. I tried to state that I recognize your philosophy and approach to sparring in my posts... probably got lost in my long-winded prose.... So by your perspective, by all means proceeds that way

yep there's some misunderstanding. I was just pretty much saying that an instructor wouldn't have any trouble with Jai. If I was going to match him with someone it would be an intermediate or skill level person. My comment about "No Instructor needed" wasn't referring to the philosophy. Just pointing out Jai skills (that he showed) would be barely considered intermediate in some fighting systems.

 

[guy b.]

yep there's some misunderstanding. I was just pretty much saying that an instructor wouldn't have any trouble with Jai. If I was going to match him with someone it would be an intermediate or skill level person. My comment about "No Instructor needed" wasn't referring to the philosophy. Just pointing out Jai skills (that he showed) would be barely considered intermediate in some fighting systems.

Any intructor would have no trouble fighting Jai Harman? Have I strayed into the twilight zone?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Check out a Wonderboy (kenpo karate base) vs. Matt Brown (Muay Thai, BJJ base) UFC highlight.

Seems like a good fight form what I saw. They're both excellent fighters, but they both threw away a lot of fundamentals and paid dearly for it. Hopefully I'll be able to find the full fight video of it.

Well, I'm not an expert on your style... but I'm aware of such nuances.... The greater lesson I take from your illustration of that counter is that your opponents are too into landing a scoring blow,,, and not much else

Correct. My rule is to fight my opponent where he isn't. This is both physically and mentally.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Any intructor would have no trouble fighting Jai Harman? Have I strayed into the twilight zone?

I didn't say any instructor. Reread my comment, that you quoted.
My comments about Jai are based on his sparring videos that he posted on Youtube. That's all that I have to go on and from what I see, there's nothing that I would be overly concerned with, based on how I have seen other people fight. As for instructors of schools that train to fight, they are usually very skilled with their techniques so I don't see how my comment would be "twilight zone" material. If you know something about Jai that would prove otherwise then feel free to inform us. But based on the videos that I saw his stance is weak and he over commits on his punches and movement.

 

[ShotoNoob]

yep there's some misunderstanding. I was just pretty much saying that an instructor wouldn't have any trouble with Jai. If I was going to match him with someone it would be an intermediate or skill level person. My comment about "No Instructor needed" wasn't referring to the philosophy. Just pointing out Jai skills (that he showed) would be barely considered intermediate in some fighting systems.

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Yes, I concur completely given the video samples of his competition style...

 

[ShotoNoob]

Seems like a good fight form what I saw. They're both excellent fighters, but they both threw away a lot of fundamentals and paid dearly for it. Hopefully I'll be able to find the full fight video of it.

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Correct. My rule is to fight my opponent where he isn't. This is both physically and mentally.

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That statement I can't handle...

 

[ShotoNoob]

ON Thompson vs. Brown Highlight.... weLL?