Wing Chun vs. Aikido

[K-man]

I would defiantely say that most arts are harder to pick up than wing chun
There are some arts like boxing and MT which have very simple techniques, and it is more about how you apply it (ie positioning)

Many other arts such as BJJ, aikido, ninjitsu, wushu etc have extremely complex moves which require you to 'prepare' your opponent
(ie you need to get into a certain position to pull off an armbar)

In wing chun you can attack from any position using pretty much the same moves. Same with boxing

Aikido relies a lot on your opponents doing certain attacks and then the defence is usually overcomplicated

Sorry to disagree. My Aikido class is small (8 students max) and consists of 2 nidan aikido and 6 karateka shodan to hachidan, some with other black belt gradings as well. No matter what attack you try, and as fast as you like, we cannot lay a hand on our teacher. He is an exceptional practitioner and that is why we train under him. None of his responses are complicated and the outcome is always the same. If he chose to add atemi to his defence we would literally be dead. :asian:

 

[KamonGuy2]

Sorry to disagree. My Aikido class is small (8 students max) and consists of 2 nidan aikido and 6 karateka shodan to hachidan, some with other black belt gradings as well. No matter what attack you try, and as fast as you like, we cannot lay a hand on our teacher. He is an exceptional practitioner and that is why we train under him. None of his responses are complicated and the outcome is always the same. If he chose to add atemi to his defence we would literally be dead. :asian:

With all due respect, are any of your students good boxers, kickboxers or practitioners of Westrn arts?

I trained CKD with a 5th dan karate black belt who was dreadful. Sure if you stood still and asked him to hit you, he would put a hole in your chest, but his general martial arts was terrible. Therefore, just saying we have 6 karateka shodan is not very helpful. How long have they trained? Are they really going for it when they go in at your teacher? Really?

Of course there are always exceptions to the rule, but I have visited quite a few Aikido dojos in my time and train alongside three aikido practitioners who have been training over 20 years each. They are good when it is a set situation but against resistance training they aren't up to much

I think your statement about adding atemi is a bit stupid
It is very rare for any martial artist to kill someone in a fight, even using throat strikes and spine attacks. For example there has never been any deaths in the UFC

In streetfights people can die from lucky hits and usually it is the impact when they hit the ground that does the most damage

It is very silly to say that you will certainly die from his aikido if he tried

My Sifu is a hard guy and I know that he would probably put me on my butt if I went in to attack him, but it is not a certainty that he would kill me or even hurt me badly

 

[futsaowingchun]

Sorry to disagree. My Aikido class is small (8 students max) and consists of 2 nidan aikido and 6 karateka shodan to hachidan, some with other black belt gradings as well. No matter what attack you try, and as fast as you like, we cannot lay a hand on our teacher. He is an exceptional practitioner and that is why we train under him. None of his responses are complicated and the outcome is always the same. If he chose to add atemi to his defence we would literally be dead. :asian:

Yes,I'm sure he very good,but the key word is the students always attack first..That is why he can do what he does.You give him the energy( commit) and he is able to use that agaisnt you.If you don't commit to the attack he has no move.

 

[geezer]

Yes,I'm sure he very good,but the key word is the students always attack first..That is why he can do what he does.You give him the energy( commit) and he is able to use that agaisnt you.If you don't commit to the attack he has no move.

Futsao, if I may take this a bit further, one quality of the WT I train is that we maintain our balance and don't commit our body in our attacks. If an attack is deflected or grappled, we flow with the energy, turning it to our advantage. If someone tries to move you around in a circle, we go straight through the center (ie from the perimeter of a wheel to the axle). It is an approach that may not nullify all of what Aikido does, but it certainly doesn't give them much. I had the opportunity to watch Leung Ting make a very high ranking master of Aiki-jujutsu apear very foolish demonstrating this. Now, I can not duplicate what GM Leung does... but that's an example of what I'm talking about. I'm guessing that Futsao has a similar approach?

 

[K-man]

With all due respect, are any of your students good boxers, kickboxers or practitioners of Westrn arts?

I trained CKD with a 5th dan karate black belt who was dreadful. Sure if you stood still and asked him to hit you, he would put a hole in your chest, but his general martial arts was terrible. Therefore, just saying we have 6 karateka shodan is not very helpful. How long have they trained? Are they really going for it when they go in at your teacher? Really?

Of course there are always exceptions to the rule, but I have visited quite a few Aikido dojos in my time and train alongside three aikido practitioners who have been training over 20 years each. They are good when it is a set situation but against resistance training they aren't up to much

I think your statement about adding atemi is a bit stupid
It is very rare for any martial artist to kill someone in a fight, even using throat strikes and spine attacks. For example there has never been any deaths in the UFC

In streetfights people can die from lucky hits and usually it is the impact when they hit the ground that does the most damage

It is very silly to say that you will certainly die from his aikido if he tried

My Sifu is a hard guy and I know that he would probably put me on my butt if I went in to attack him, but it is not a certainty that he would kill me or even hurt me badly

With all due respect, are any of your students good boxers, kickboxers or practitioners of Westrn arts?

The most senior karateka in his early 50's now also teaches kick boxing and has high ranking in BJJ. Also spent a lot of time as a bodyguard. Another guy spent his working life on the docks and spent many hours training boxers. No stranger to real street violence. Three others are into BJJ. Ave training for the karate guys, about 30 years.

Are they really going for it when they go in at your teacher? Really?

When asked to, yes.

They are good when it is a set situation but against resistance training they aren't up to much.

Agree totally which is why all our training is against resistance and why we train with this particular teacher.

I think your statement about adding atemi is a bit stupid
It is very rare for any martial artist to kill someone in a fight, even using throat strikes and spine attacks. For example there has never been any deaths in the UFC

In streetfights people can die from lucky hits and usually it is the impact when they hit the ground that does the most damage

It is very silly to say that you will certainly die from his aikido if he tried

Sorry, slight exageration. But, when he hits with soft atemi you don't bounce back up! This man is not aggressive but I feel he could really cause damage if he chose to.

from futsaowingchun

Yes,I'm sure he very good,but the key word is the students always attack first..That is why he can do what he does.You give him the energy( commit) and he is able to use that agaisnt you. If you don't commit to the attack he has no move.

Not the case here. He can certainly make the first move.

I am the first to admit that a lot of Aikido (read most) just doesn't impress. However, what our group has discovered with this teacher is that there can be much more to Aikido than we realised, and what we have learned fits perfectly with Goju karate.

 

[CuongNhuka]

Yes,I'm sure he very good,but the key word is the students always attack first..That is why he can do what he does.You give him the energy( commit) and he is able to use that agaisnt you.If you don't commit to the attack he has no move.

But, if you don't give him anything to work with, then there is no attack, and thus no need to do anything. Also, I've been put in wrist locks from guard (western Boxing an Man Sao Wu Sao)

I had the opportunity to watch Leung Ting make a very high ranking master of Aiki-jujutsu apear very foolish demonstrating this.

There's a differnce between Aikido and Aiki jujutsu. It's kinda like comparing Yip Man Wing Chun and Snake Style Wing Chun. You're dealing with 2 different animals, that just happen to be closely related. Aikido was developed (mostly) from Aiki jujutsu, but O'Sensei took the techniques he felt were the most adaptable to different situations.
I've been put into different Aikido locks from all kinds of attacks (different grabbs, different punches, guard, and while throwing ELBOWS in Chi Sao).

 

[geezer]

...I've been put into different Aikido locks from all kinds of attacks (different grabbs, different punches, guard, and while throwing ELBOWS in Chi Sao).

Unlucky you. Them things really hurt! ...But then so do elbow strikes. If I were richer, smarter, and had more time, I'd want to learn it all.

 

[futsaowingchun]

Futsao, if I may take this a bit further, one quality of the WT I train is that we maintain our balance and don't commit our body in our attacks. If an attack is deflected or grappled, we flow with the energy, turning it to our advantage. If someone tries to move you around in a circle, we go straight through the center (ie from the perimeter of a wheel to the axle). It is an approach that may not nullify all of what Aikido does, but it certainly doesn't give them much. I had the opportunity to watch Leung Ting make a very high ranking master of Aiki-jujutsu apear very foolish demonstrating this. Now, I can not duplicate what GM Leung does... but that's an example of what I'm talking about. I'm guessing that Futsao has a similar approach?

yes similar.

 

[CuongNhuka]

Unlucky you. Them things really hurt! ...But then so do elbow strikes. If I were richer, smarter, and had more time, I'd want to learn it all.

Who says Aikido is too complex and requires your opponent to be in a specific position? No one who knows what they're talking about, that who!

 

[futsaowingchun]

quote=CuongNhuka;1157023]But, if you don't give him anything to work with, then there is no attack, and thus no need to do anything. Also, I've been put in wrist locks from guard (western Boxing an Man Sao Wu Sao)

In Fut Sao Wing Chun there is a thing called false energy.It feels and looks like a commited real attack but it's not.We let our opponent react to the false attack and use that energy agaist them.I never seen Akido do this they always let the student make the first move and need that to work off of.Perhaps in the highests levels they do this but so far I have not seen it.

 

[CuongNhuka]

In Fut Sao Wing Chun there is a thing called false energy.It feels and looks like a commited real attack but it's not.We let our opponent react to the false attack and use that energy agaist them.I never seen Akido do this they always let the student make the first move and need that to work off of.Perhaps in the highests levels they do this but so far I have not seen it.

Highest levels my butt! This is stuff a student could be thinking of shortly into there training. As I said earlier, Aikido was designed to be adaptable to any situation. To think that you can only do Kote Gaeishi against a wrist grab because thats the way it is taught shows that either you are a bad student, or you had a terrible teacher. To think that you cann't grab someones wrist and turn it into a four directions throw shows you know nothing about Aikido.

 

[geezer]

Highest levels my butt! This is stuff a student could be thinking of shortly into there training...

People say the same thing about Tai Chi. Then there was this Chinese guy that used to teach "fighting tai chi" in the back parking lot, next to the dumpster behind his restaurant after closing time. I got to know him through a Chinese buddy back in the early 80s. His students started using tai chi concepts in fighting right away. I don't know if their tai chi was any good, but they could fight! And, the guy always let us eat all the left over food from the buffet for free.

Anyway, Cuong, do you guys train Aikido along with Cuong Nhu and WC in your school? How did you happen to be mixing it in when doing chi-sau?

 

[Jenna]

Scuse me for butting in and but from my earliest days in Aikido we have practiced chi sau equivalents A feel for the opponent is a core tech in most arts, right?

I do not in any way fault the OP here for posing the initial "versus" question. When it comes to a which-art-is-better debate the arguments fall down and all bets are off and but well done to you guys on this thread for not letting it. Well done

For me as an aikidoka who has spent quite a few loose evenings messing around in her dad's boxing gym, I can say that the apparent mismatch of styles between Aikido and the pugilistic arts such as boxing (I also spar with a group of northern longfist KF friends) is certainly an interesting experiment and one from which I think everyone can learn provided it is done in that spirit and not as a which-is-better.

I do not want to add any technical gumpf to the debate and but I just want to echo what has been said - if you want to test out your WC, there is no substitute for grabbing hold of an Aikido guy (no not literally - we do not react well to that, ha!) and give it a over a number of sessions. Even if you find Youtube vids they will give no great indication of how YOU yourself would perform and that is what I think we all want to know, right?

I find sparring with an artist from another discipline takes at least a few hours to get to the point at which you are both neither tripping each other up with your own awkwardness nor pulling punches. I think if any aikidoka or any artist from any discipline for that matter is reticent about trying her or his art against yours then they are limiting their own education

Good luck and good thread
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

 

[CuongNhuka]

People say the same thing about Tai Chi. Then there was this Chinese guy that used to teach "fighting tai chi" in the back parking lot, next to the dumpster behind his restaurant after closing time. I got to know him through a Chinese buddy back in the early 80s. His students started using tai chi concepts in fighting right away. I don't know if their tai chi was any good, but they could fight! And, the guy always let us eat all the left over food from the buffet for free.

Anyway, Cuong, do you guys train Aikido along with Cuong Nhu and WC in your school? How did you happen to be mixing it in when doing chi-sau?

Yes and no. Let me give you a little back round into Cuong Nhu, and my school.
Cuong Nhu is a modern ecletic art from Vietnam (though, there are no schools in Vietnam anymore). Cuong Nhu includes Shotokan, Judo, Aikido, Wing Chun, Tai Chi, Western Boxing, And Vovinam. Elements of other styles have worked there way in over time (many Cuong Nhu students have training in something else, and they show it to there Cuong Nhu Sensei, and it works it way up the ladder). So, there are elements of both styles in Cuong Nhu as it is. In the Pre-Black level you learn concepts from Aikido, and a handful of techniques, and a few Wing Chun concepts. The technique doesn't come until Post-Black Belt (I think Sui Nim Tao is a requirement at Shodan). For more on Cuong Nhu please visit the site (www.cuongnhu.com).
As for my school, there are 5 active students, and my Sensei. The other students include a TKD Black Belt with 6 years of exeprience, a Kung Fu Sifu (I cann't remember the style, and I have no idea how long he has been training, but has been teaching for atleast 7 years). Me, (I have some boxing training and MCMAP training), and two students with no other training.
My Sensei did TKD for a few years as a Teen, was a Soldier (who did Army Combatives), did Aikido for 12 years (I think), and has been doing Cuong Nhu for 15 years. He did Wing Chun for about fours (until a year ago). Normally we do a 'normal' 1 hour long class, and then me and the TKD Black Belt stay and do some Wing Chun training, under our Sensei who then doubles as Sifu. The story with the Kung Fu Sifu is comlpex.

As for how we pull off Aikido techniques in Chi Sau, it is simple. Someone punches, someone else grabs a wrist (this would lead into a trap attempt in a 'normal' Wing Chun School), and someone tries a wrist lock ('Bent Wrist' and the reverse are the most common attempted, and the first taught in Cuong Nhu). It was so common, I didn't think much of it, until our Sensei tould us that we were going to do Chi Sau with no lock attempts, so we try more traps. We have more practice at doing locks, so it comes out more in Chi Sau, and regular sparring.

Also, Aikido has it's own version of free style (thank you Jenna for reminding me of this), called Randori. My school doesn't do Randori (though i suddenly want to), but if I understand the rules correctly it goes like this:
using three or more attackers (called Uke) who come forward, and do a random attack (it could be pretty much anything from a grab to a strike), and the defender (Tori) responds how he feels.
I cann't give you an idea of when you start doing Randori, but it is done in Aikido schools, and full speed/full force after you get there. Aikido techniques are taught progressivly increasing speed/force.

 

[KamonGuy2]

It sounds like some people are mixing up arts and getting confused because of it

When people fight using tai chi, they are not using tai chi anymore, even though they claim to
Tai chi is an internal art. Sure it can be changed and built upon to incorperate fighting moves and street applicable techniques, but these usually are outside the tai chi system

I hate guys who try to encompass everything in their art. It is like wing chun trying to be used for sport (which is always a main argument on forums). If you want to fight in the sport arena, go find a sport art (unless you are genuinely trying to 'test' your system)

If you want to fight, go and learn an art that deals with that. Don't do tai chi for 20 years and then claim you can fight using that art. That just irritates me

I love my karate school because they clarify what is a sport technique and what is a fighting technique etc (ie what works and what doesn't)
Whereas in many systems, you will find instructors who believe that a technique that takes twenty minutes to pull off, is a good one

Aikido is a fun art but from what I have seen it is not great pratically for the reasons that many people have already mentioned
Sure there will be exceptions, and it doesn't make it a BAD art (ie you have arts that aren't street applicable but are still useful)

 

[kaizasosei]

hmmmn...tough call. I am have practiced more aikido than wingchung but have been practicing wingchung to some degree for a while too.
What i think however is that both martial arts or the typical coolaid drinkers are quite vain and snotty so both deserve to get their asses beat.

On average i think that a normal wingchung practitioner will defeat the average aikido practitioner, because the soft stuff of aikido will not work well on the wingchun style. And the sticky hands and hysterical chain punches would be hard for the aikido man/woman to handle or 'adjust to'-leaving the aikido practitioner in a position of relative helplessness

j

 

[blindsage]

It sounds like some people are mixing up arts and getting confused because of it

When people fight using tai chi, they are not using tai chi anymore, even though they claim to
Tai chi is an internal art. Sure it can be changed and built upon to incorperate fighting moves and street applicable techniques, but these usually are outside the tai chi system

I hate guys who try to encompass everything in their art. It is like wing chun trying to be used for sport (which is always a main argument on forums). If you want to fight in the sport arena, go find a sport art (unless you are genuinely trying to 'test' your system)

If you want to fight, go and learn an art that deals with that. Don't do tai chi for 20 years and then claim you can fight using that art. That just irritates me

You don't know much about Tai Chi or internal arts it seems. Tai Chi is, at it's base, a fighting art, period. Most people in the U.S., and China even I believe, don't learn the fighting components, but they are most definitely there. It requires an instructor knowledgable in the fighting applications to teach them properly. You need to do more research.

Here's a couple videos of a famous Chen Tai Chi instructor. These are from a seminar, they are not imported moves, this is what some Tai Chi applications look like.

Chen Bing

Chen Bing 2

Maybe your perspective of Aikido is just as flawed.

 

[CuongNhuka]

You don't know much about Tai Chi or internal arts it seems. Tai Chi is, at it's base, a fighting art, period. Most people in the U.S., and China even I believe, don't learn the fighting components, but they are most definitely there. It requires an instructor knowledgable in the fighting applications to teach them properly. You need to do more research.

Here's a couple videos of a famous Chen Tai Chi instructor. These are from a seminar, they are not imported moves, this is what some Tai Chi applications look like.

Chen Bing

Chen Bing 2

Maybe your perspective of Aikido is just as flawed.

Tai Chi also has it's own version of Chi Sao, called 'Push Hands'. And it is

 

[K-man]

It sounds like some people are mixing up arts and getting confused because of it

When people fight using tai chi, they are not using tai chi anymore, even though they claim to
Tai chi is an internal art. Sure it can be changed and built upon to incorperate fighting moves and street applicable techniques, but these usually are outside the tai chi system

I hate guys who try to encompass everything in their art. It is like wing chun trying to be used for sport (which is always a main argument on forums). If you want to fight in the sport arena, go find a sport art (unless you are genuinely trying to 'test' your system)

If you want to fight, go and learn an art that deals with that. Don't do tai chi for 20 years and then claim you can fight using that art. That just irritates me

I love my karate school because they clarify what is a sport technique and what is a fighting technique etc (ie what works and what doesn't)
Whereas in many systems, you will find instructors who believe that a technique that takes twenty minutes to pull off, is a good one

Aikido is a fun art but from what I have seen it is not great pratically for the reasons that many people have already mentioned
Sure there will be exceptions, and it doesn't make it a BAD art (ie you have arts that aren't street applicable but are still useful)

If, for the moment we ignore 'sport MA', I suspect that in a serious fighting situation with adrenalin dump and the diminution of fine motor skills, practitioners from almost all martial art backgrounds will be reduced to a similar level. Complex techniques will be out the window as survival mode kicks in. Where good training comes to the fore is when in the flurry of fists and feet, arms and legs an opening occurs for a punch, kick or joint breaking technique and that move is basically reflex action due to the muscle memory of regular training. My aikido teacher says that the more advanced you become the less technique you use, and I can see the same thing within karate. I believe that there are many great MAs suitable for RBSD and I don't believe there is one of them that cannot be augmented by another.

I love my karate school because they clarify what is a sport technique and what is a fighting technique etc (ie what works and what doesn't)

I'm a bit lost here! Traditional MAs have no 'sport technique'. They have some techniques which may be applicable to sports. As to techniques in traditional MAs that 'don't work' I would suggest you get a second opinion. Maybe your instructor doesn't understand the application. :asian:

 

[KamonGuy2]

If, for the moment we ignore 'sport MA', I suspect that in a serious fighting situation with adrenalin dump and the diminution of fine motor skills, practitioners from almost all martial art backgrounds will be reduced to a similar level. Complex techniques will be out the window as survival mode kicks in. Where good training comes to the fore is when in the flurry of fists and feet, arms and legs an opening occurs for a punch, kick or joint breaking technique and that move is basically reflex action due to the muscle memory of regular training. My aikido teacher says that the more advanced you become the less technique you use, and I can see the same thing within karate. I believe that there are many great MAs suitable for RBSD and I don't believe there is one of them that cannot be augmented by another.
I'm a bit lost here! Traditional MAs have no 'sport technique'. They have some techniques which may be applicable to sports. As to techniques in traditional MAs that 'don't work' I would suggest you get a second opinion. Maybe your instructor doesn't understand the application. :asian:

Just to clarify, I have been working on the martial arts for 25 years and yeah of course I don't know everything, but I certainly know enough to see what works and what doesn't. Tai chi is not a fighting art, and people who say that it is are just wannabes. Saying that tai chi is a fighting art at its core is worse than a chunner saying wing chun is too deadly for the cage. Its a cardinal sin

Tai chi is not a fighting art. In some situations the movements can be adapted to form a weak fighting art. I can't get into the videos you've posted but I've probably seen them before (some guy floating around doing big movements to block a small attack)

Like I said, it doesn't make tai chi a bad art (I've done it myself fairly extensively), but what I am trying to say is don't make your art try and fit a criteria just for the sake of it

If someone said to me, you have to get in the cage in 5 months time, I'm not going to start training wing chun. I'll go to a boxing academy and work my *** off

If someone says you are entering a point scoring competition, I'll go and train TKD

If someone says that I have to defend myself in a street scenario I'lll learn wing chun or karate.

I won't do one art and then try to make it fit everything. People like that make me angry. Of course they are passionate about their art and think of it as 'the best', but at the end of the day different arts do different jobs

Traditional MA's have no sport technique? Are you joking? Karate has been doing competitions for hundreds of years. The same with TKD and Judo and many others

A thigh kick is not a street technique. When I do knockdowns (sport tournaments), thigh kicks bounce off and they are only there to weaken your opponent over time
Whereas a kingeri kick would pretty much put me down if a person gets it right

I think you need to look deeper into the history of your arts - you might be surprised