wing chun vs muai thai

[Jens]

 

[Danny T]

This was not wing chun vs muay thai.This is a very inexperienced someone who may be a muay thai practitioner vs some who has a lot more experience; 20 years of TKD, Wing Chun, Ninjutsu, and Boxing.

 

[KPM]

That! ^^^^^ I don't know anyone that would consider that video any kind of representation of Muay Thai.

 

[Steve]

Proof that Muay Thai doesn't work in the ring.

 

[JowGaWolf]

This is just a simple case of one person knowing how to fight and the other not knowing. It's clear that one person has more experience which is why the title of the video is "Jai Harman vs Muay Thai" and not "Wing Chun vs Muay Thai." It's only "Wing Chun vs Muay Thai" when wing chun is actually being used.

Everything about the guy who was losing screams BEGINNER. For me personally I wouldn't have done that to someone who was clearly not at my level unless the person said something to deserve it. If it was just a friendly match then I would have just saved my "awesome skills" and use the match as a skills practice for me. Like maybe baiting the guy so that I can work on my counter attacks or allowing the guy to attack so I can work on my defense.

I watched a couple of videos that Jai Harman put on youtube and he always seems to be sparring with people who are at a low skill level for fighting. I'm not saying that he isn't good. For me, the better my opponent is, the more I can let loose with my technique without being worried that I may hurt the other guy, and the better I'll get using my fighting style.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Why does WC always has to be "vs." some styles? We don't see:

- boxing vs. ...
- wrestling vs. ...
- Judo vs. ...
- long fist vs. ...
- praying mantis vs. ...
- ...

 

[Dirty Dog]

Yes, we do, actually. YouBoob is drowning in "vs" videos, which are pretty much all crap.

 

[Danny T]

The so called muay thai person wasn't ready and his coach should have never allowed him to be in such a position at this point in his training. It is bad enough he was outclassed skill wise but he didn't know what to do or how to handle being hit. He should not have been in a competition, smoker, or sparring match like this to begin with. Terrible example of developing a student. (and quite honestly for someone with 20 years of training Harman's fundamentals, in this video, leave a lot to be desired)

 

[JowGaWolf]

Yes, we do, actually. YouBoob is drowning in "vs" videos, which are pretty much all crap.

The "fighting style vs fighting style" videos are is usually 1 good fighting vs a fighter that isn't good or a fighting system vs another fighting system and you really can't tell the actual techniques being done. But there are some good videos showing good practitioners going against each other; you just have to swim through the crap to see good ones.
Taekwondo vs Muay Thai has some good videos that represent both fighting systems really well.
Kung fu vs any fighting system is 99% really horrible. The only thing were you'll see really kung fu techniques used against another style is from Yi long. You'll have to watch his earlier matches in other to see the stuff that non-kung fu practitioners would consider "kung fu."
Capoeira has good ones. You can see their opponents faces freak out when they deal with these guys. The movement isn't the normal "mma / boxing / kickboxing" movement so you'll see clearly that they don't know how to deal with capoeira.

I blame modern day kung fu martial arts tournaments for trying to make Kung Fu safe. Which results in crap like this. This stuff is training for how to get knocked out. Stuff like this is one step away from turning into an anime nerd convention full of make believe. Tru2Form Kung Fu is the worse idea ever.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The so called muay thai person wasn't ready and his coach should have never allowed him to be in such a position at this point in his training. It is bad enough he was outclassed skill wise but he didn't know what to do or how to handle being hit. He should not have been in a competition, smoker, or sparring match like this to begin with. Terrible example of developing a student. (and quite honestly for someone with 20 years of training Harman's fundamentals, in this video, leave a lot to be desired)

I don't know the context of why the beginner was in the ring fighting, but his ego probably took a bigger hit that day. lol. For all we know he could have had an ego problem and his coach decided to bring him back into reality.

I've sparred against people who were no where near my skill level and I went easy on them. I gave them just enough so that they could fight back and be challenged at the same time. I also benefited from this because it allowed me to work on new techniques without the fear of being knocked out from trying it.

There have been cases where I lowered my output level too low and got rocked, when I went easy on a female fighter. I quickly made adjustments to the level where I wasn't dominating the fight but I wasn't getting rocked like before. Doing this allowed me to gain a better understanding on one of the techniques I knew. That day I learned 4 new applications of the same technique thanks to this lady.
Video of me getting rocked from a punch. She was faster and hit harder than I initially thought she was able to. I quickly had to raise my skill level higher but not so high where I was dominating the fight. Out of all of the people I sparred with that day she is the one that I talked the most about. She definitely earned my respect. The rules stated that we had to match our intensity to the level of our opponent.

 

[Dinkydoo]

No head movement, hands coming to meet strikes, hands dangerously low for no reason most of the time, no attempt to move around the opponent:

1. This guy doesn't have the basics of any kind of kickboxing down very well.

2. Why did his instructor allow him to be in that fight

3. Well done to him for being brave enough to get in there.

Hopefully he leaves it a couple of months before fighting/sparring like this again, you can have any confidence you had in your training broken pretty easy by continuously putting yourself in that kind of position before you're ready. It'll do more damage than good imo.

 

[drop bear]

No head movement, hands coming to meet strikes, hands dangerously low for no reason most of the time, no attempt to move around the opponent:

1. This guy doesn't have the basics of any kind of kickboxing down very well.

2. Why did his instructor allow him to be in that fight

3. Well done to him for being brave enough to get in there.

Hopefully he leaves it a couple of months before fighting/sparring like this again, you can have any confidence you had in your training broken pretty easy by continuously putting yourself in that kind of position before you're ready. It'll do more damage than good imo.

Possibly the most interesting idea so far. Do you or don't you put your new student in a situation where he will loose?

For me probably sometimes? It can get you over the brink and turn you in to a fighter. But it is an unpleasant way to do it.

I mean that is how I learned to fight and just kept doing it until I didn't care anymore. From there I was able to work on technique regardless as to what they did.

 

[LFJ]

(and quite honestly for someone with 20 years of training Harman's fundamentals, in this video, leave a lot to be desired)

Fundamentals of what? Do you think he was trying to use VT there?

What specifically for example would you have desired with regard to his fundamentals?

 

[Dinkydoo]

Possibly the most interesting idea so far. Do you or don't you put your new student in a situation where he will loose?

For me probably sometimes? It can get you over the brink and turn you in to a fighter. But it is an unpleasant way to do it.

I mean that is how I learned to fight and just kept doing it until I didn't care anymore. From there I was able to work on technique regardless as to what they did.

I think putting students in controlled environments where they should lose, like sparring against a better person, is good for their development at any stage of their training - beginner to expert. In the beginning I think it's important that they don't get roughed up too badly too often though; I went through a period of getting my *** handed to me frequently when first starting kickboxing and it wasn't pleasant - and I think there definitely was a limit as to how much I could have learned from the process, before more padwork and drills became the answer.

For me it is an iterative process: padwork/drills > sparring > lessons learned > work on these in padwork/drills > apply to light sparring until comfortable ... and so on.

From the video, it didnt look like that guy had done much of the "apply to light sparring" before jumping into medium/heavy contact. Hopefully he gets a bit of practice in before his next fight

 

[Danny T]

Fundamentals of what? Do you think he was trying to use VT there?

What specifically for example would you have desired with regard to his fundamentals?

Fundamentals of body unity and mechanics for empty hand fighting in a stand up striking event. Lack of protecting the jaw and head when punching. Numerous examples of wide open punching even opening up the arms in an attempt to punch with more power because his body mechanics are so poor. The only reason he did as well as he did against that particular person was the other person was so much worse. What he showed within this video was more boxing and kickboxing vs a wing chun stylist though several punches were straight down the center. Elbows were out a lot more than in and he telegraphed many of his wide swinging hook punches. Not a very good example of a seasoned 20 year practitioner he is purported to be. I already stated this wasn't wing chun vs muay thai.

 

[LFJ]

@Danny T

I don't look at it that way. You're perhaps thinking you'd do such and such if he did that, but there's nothing to say he'd fight like that against you. There's no need for him to tighten up against someone of obviously lesser skill. Like a cat toying with a mouse, nothing wrong with a loose freestyle. If the opponent can't deal with it, that's not Jai's problem.

 

[drop bear]

I think putting students in controlled environments where they should lose, like sparring against a better person, is good for their development at any stage of their training - beginner to expert. In the beginning I think it's important that they don't get roughed up too badly too often though; I went through a period of getting my *** handed to me frequently when first starting kickboxing and it wasn't pleasant - and I think there definitely was a limit as to how much I could have learned from the process, before more padwork and drills became the answer.

For me it is an iterative process: padwork/drills > sparring > lessons learned > work on these in padwork/drills > apply to light sparring until comfortable ... and so on.

From the video, it didnt look like that guy had done much of the "apply to light sparring" before jumping into medium/heavy contact. Hopefully he gets a bit of practice in before his next fight

Yeah I say tentatively. He had spazed out by the end. So he might have been better than he was showing at that time.

I see people people fight my Coach like that because he is unconventional and just awkward to fight. They start second guessing and punching short. Put them with a less skilled guy and they take more advantage of openings.

 

[JPinAZ]

@Danny T

I don't look at it that way. You're perhaps thinking you'd do such and such if he did that, but there's nothing to say he'd fight like that against you. There's no need for him to tighten up against someone of obviously lesser skill. Like a cat toying with a mouse, nothing wrong with a loose freestyle. If the opponent can't deal with it, that's not Jai's problem.

I agree with this for the most part. When going against someone of obviously less skill, you can indulge in letting yourself loosen up a bit, but it's not necessary and could be a bad habit to get into and cause you to get caught with a wild lucky swing (but still fun I guess if you're feeling risky).
That aside, for 20 years experience and going against someone of obviously lesser skill, he did look a bit sloppy to me over all (looser guard or not).

 

[drop bear]

By the way if I box someone I am better than I tend to go very authodox light power but high pressure. So they don't get into this idea that running gives them safety or collapsing gives them safety.

 

[Danny T]

@Danny T
You're perhaps thinking you'd do such and such if he did that, but there's nothing to say he'd fight like that against you. There's no need for him to tighten up against someone of obviously lesser skill. Like a cat toying with a mouse, nothing wrong with a loose freestyle. If the opponent can't deal with it, that's not Jai's problem.

No actually I wasn't. I was looking at what he was doing based upon someone who has 20+ years of training and look at his fundamentals. (as you asked). I didn't say anything about Jai having a problem because of being far better skilled than his opponent. What I did say was his fundamentals 'in that video' left a lot to be desired. The video was displayed as an example of what the OP titled as "wing chun vs muay thai". My comments are based upon wing chun vs muay thai. Harman has a lot of training in several fighting systems and relaxed or not the fundamentals displayed by him 'in this video' were lacking.