Wing Chun vs MMA

[Danny T]

Define sparring hard...

I wouldn't consider this sparring hard;

Now this is funny Hanzou.
It says "Level 1 Sparring"
I would call it play which could well be level 1 sparring for them. I don't and most don't just throw people into a sparring program or class without building up some skills and easing them in.

The description even states it is beginners and others who don't attend their 'sparring classes.
"The newer students are finding their footing getting used to moving and gaining hand eye coordination and getting used to being attacked in a free-style manner VS scripted. The more advanced students are learning the same things, but also that even if you are good at techniques when it is scripted, that doesn't mean you will automatically do well when the attacks are free. You need both.

It is my wish that every student of mine spars and attends grappling class, but I do not force this on them and allow them to enjoy the art in the way they choose."

So yes you are correct this is not 'hard' sparring.

 

[Hanzou]

Now this is funny Hanzou.
It says "Level 1 Sparring"
I would call it play which could well be level 1 sparring for them. I don't and most don't just throw people into a sparring program or class without building up some skills and easing them in.

The description even states it is beginners and others who don't attend their 'sparring classes.
"The newer students are finding their footing getting used to moving and gaining hand eye coordination and getting used to being attacked in a free-style manner VS scripted. The more advanced students are learning the same things, but also that even if you are good at techniques when it is scripted, that doesn't mean you will automatically do well when the attacks are free. You need both.

It is my wish that every student of mine spars and attends grappling class, but I do not force this on them and allow them to enjoy the art in the way they choose."

So yes you are correct this is not 'hard' sparring.

Which is why I chose that particular video.

 

[Drose427]

Considering that they're wearing protective gear, its clearly not "bout level", however it IS full contact sparring.



However he wouldn't be the champ if he didn't spar on a consistent basis.



An entire style? That would be hard to prove since someone would pop on and say that their particular school does sparring and complain that I'm being unfair to them and their system. However, there are styles of MA where sparring isn't common. Aikido, Ninjutsu, Internal Chinese MAs, and some classic JJ styles for example.



Define sparring hard...

I wouldn't consider this sparring hard;

It ISNT full contact sparring, theyre pulling punches, not following through, etc. If you can't see that nobody can help you

Yes, as do Most TMAS......

And outside of Internal Chinese, all those styles spar...Not as hard as others, but still spar.

Hard sparring is the level where theres a degree of injury if you mess up, but not in the same vein as a match.

Various levels of that are in these videos:

Even through protective gear, these guys will have bruises. You can find similar videos of others in the same system

On the lesser end of the spectrum, but hard enough to know by the sound of the connections theres good contact.

Hey look! Controlled sparring, even in MMA!

 

[Hanzou]

It ISNT full contact sparring, theyre pulling punches, not following through, etc. If you can't see that nobody can help you

Considering the impact from those blows, they're definitely not pulling punches.

Yes, as do Most TMAS......

And outside of Internal Chinese, all those styles spar...Not as hard as others, but still spar.

So we agree that Internal CMAs don't (or don't tend to) spar?

Shouldn't that be the end of the discussion?

Hey look! Controlled sparring, even in MMA!

Where did I say that there was no controlled sparring in MMA?

 

[Phobius]

Bah, please ignore. A really old post now I replied to.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Hey look! Controlled sparring, even in MMA!

And taking it easy.

 

[RTKDCMB]

So you're saying there's no Martial Arts out there that are almost entirely kata-based?

So it's gone from 'just kicking and punching air' to being almost 'entirely kata based'. Make up your mind.

And you're using semantics. In all cases you're using your hands and feet to cause physical punishment to another human being. A 'one punch KO in the street is the same physical act as a one punch KO in the gym or the ring. If you have to strike a person multiple times in multiple areas to "incapacitate" them, how is that not "beating them up"? The only thing different is the environment and the context in which you're doing the physical act.

What Paul_D said.

I'm talking about full contact sparring, not pulling kicks and punches right before impact.

We don't 'pull punches' we fully extend every strike just as you would when actually hitting someone, we just control the distance.

 

[Paul_D]

And plenty of people have "explained" that the word "fight" can be used different ways, including the physical altercation side of SD. How many people have to explain it before you realize there might be something you don't [agree with, but can still be correct]? 10, 20, 50, 100? Or does it not matter, will you simply never accept that any opinion other than your own can be correct?

I will address your query in two parts if I may.

Firstly, and briefly, if I am discussing topic with people who are more knowledgeable in that area than myself, if I receive let’s say half a dozen or so replies along the same lines, then I will concede that, as they are more knowledgeable on the subject than me, I should accept their conclusion as correct. And I have done so on more than one occasion since I joined the site. So to answer your question, about 6.

The second part though is to address the fact that you appear to be operating under the mistaken assumption that my post was about semantics. It was not. It was not discussing what terms we give to what happens in the ring/cage and what happens in “the street”.

Although there are similarities between what happens in the cage and what happens in the street (regardless of what label’s you use to describe them) there are also many differences. Hence they are not 100% the same thing. Despite us talking about self defence Hanzou continues to talk about cage fighting as if it where self defence and repeatedly goes back to cage fighting/BJJ as some sort of litmus test for the techniques, ideas and principals of self defence.

My question then was to try and ascertain why Hanzou is here. He is not here to learn, as he never accepts any opinion (or facts) which do not agree with his onion or (mistaken belief). He is only here to troll and tell everyone who doesn’t think like him that they are wrong, regardless of his ignorance on the subject (his total misunderstanding of kata and how it should be applied for self defence being another prime example. He has routinely displayed his ignorance of the subject whilst telling the people that do understand what they are talking about, that they are wrong).

That and that alone was the point of my question, not to argue about the words “fight” and “self defence”, but to ask Hanzou is here when he is clearly not here to learn. But thank you for taking the time to butt in and get the wrong end of the stick.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Define sparring hard...

There you go:

 

[Tez3]

My question then was to try and ascertain why Hanzou is here. He is not here to learn, as he never accepts any opinion (or facts) which do not agree with his onion or (mistaken belief). He is only here to troll and tell everyone who doesn’t think like him that they are wrong, regardless of his ignorance on the subject (his total misunderstanding of kata and how it should be applied for self defence being another prime example. He has routinely displayed his ignorance of the subject whilst telling the people that do understand what they are talking about, that they are wrong).

This has been going on for a long time now and over many, many threads. We've had many interesting discussions on karate, CMA's, katas/forms etc ruined by Hanzou's incorrect assertions about how we are all wrong. Missionary zeal without grace or politeness is tedious and annoying. Most of us practice our styles believing they are the best...for us, we will all sing the praises of our styles, why we do them, why we enjoy them, why we think they fit us but the majority of people here will listen to what others say with an open mind, that doesn't mean they have to believe it just be willing to look at the evidence. It's not hard.
I train BJJ and MMA as well as karate, I also train self defence, each has it's attractions, each has it's good points and it's drawbacks. That's something that needs to be understood, no style has an answer for everything hence why we spend time as martial artists looking for answers. Not to continue learning and to be adamant that one knows everything is a major personality flaw, to continue to harrass people who don't agree with that assessment of yourself is just plain wrong and destructive to boot.

 

[Hanzou]

So it's gone from 'just kicking and punching air' to being almost 'entirely kata based'. Make up your mind.

Which is exactly what kata is; Kicking and punching air.

We don't 'pull punches' we fully extend every strike just as you would when actually hitting someone, we just control the distance.

If you're not doing full contact then you are "pulling punches".

 

[Drose427]

Considering the impact from those blows, they're definitely not pulling punches.



So we agree that Internal CMAs don't (or don't tend to) spar?

Shouldn't that be the end of the discussion?



Where did I say that there was no controlled sparring in MMA?

Not seeing the obvious pulling of punches, lack of follow through, lack of hip rotation on hooks, throwing from far enough away that they dont make hard impact, in 90% of you Mayweather, says enough on your view of hard sparring

 

[RTKDCMB]

Which is exactly what kata is; Kicking and punching air.

It has been clearly established that you don't have the slightest idea what kata (hyungs in this case) actually is.

If you're not doing full contact then you are "pulling punches".

No, pulling punches means that you stop your punches before fully extending them at a distance where full extension would result in full contact. That is not what we do.

 

[Hanzou]

It has been clearly established that you don't have the slightest idea what kata (hyungs in this case) actually is.

Really?

Looks like kicking and punching air to me.

No, pulling punches means that you stop your punches before fully extending them at a distance where full extension would result in full contact. That is not what we do.

No, pulling punches is anytime you're not striking at full power. Extensions and distances mean nothing, all that matters is the amount of force behind the blows.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Looks like kicking and punching air to me.

Looks like a yellow belt pattern from a different style of TKD to me.

No, pulling punches is anytime you're not striking at full power.

Like in the sparring videos you posted. I throw strikes at full power without hitting someone.

Extensions and distances mean nothing,

Rubbish.

all that matters is the amount of force behind the blows.

The amount of force generated by a punch is the same no matter what you hit or don't hit, the only difference between impact and no impact is the distancing.

 

[Drose427]

No, pulling punches is anytime you're not striking at full power. Extensions and distances mean nothing, all that matters is the amount of force behind the blows.

Every striking coach in the country across all styles disagrees with you there Hanzou.

 

[Hanzou]

Looks like a yellow belt pattern from a different style of TKD to me.

So are you not punching and kicking air when doing "patterns"?

Like in the sparring videos you posted. I throw strikes at full power without hitting someone.

Which is kicking and punching air, and not teaching you how to hit.

The amount of force generated by a punch is the same no matter what you hit or don't hit, the only difference between impact and no impact is the distancing.

so you're saying that if I stand a foot away from a punching bag there's no way to control the amount of force I can generate in a strike?

 

[Hanzou]

Every striking coach in the country across all styles disagrees with you there Hanzou.

I'm talking about pulling punches, not striking in general.

 

[Drose427]

I'm talking about pulling punches, not striking in general.

I know.

Extension and distance are how you do so......without sacrificing speed or power...

in the UFC video I posted a couple different fighters talk about this...

 

[Hanzou]

I know.

Extension and distance are how you do so......without sacrificing speed or power...

in the UFC video I posted a couple different fighters talk about this...

You mean the same video where you said that most fighters don't do full contact sparring, yet almost all of them said they did?