Wing Chun vs MMA

[RTKDCMB]

Competitors do get frustrated, enraged, desperate, etc.

And there is usually a referee there to break them up if it gets too hairy.

 

[Hanzou]

Not when you consider that people who have no interest in NHB competition tend to gravitate towards martial arts that do not compete in NHB competitions.

It's not that they have no interest in NHB competitions, they have no interest in actually fighting or getting hit to advance their abilities and expose their limitations. Every major MA that lends itself to NHB competitions has a very heavy sparring component that turns off many practitioners for a variety of reasons. Kyokushin for example has a full contact sparring portion that is a major part of the style. Many people don't want to get really punched in the body or kicked in the head on a regular basis, so they'll go to a softer, more kata-based karate system where they don't have to get hit, or worry about having to spar 30 big karate guys to get their black belt one day.

In the end, many people would rather kick/punch air instead of getting choked out by a big sweaty man. It's only natural.

 

[drop bear]

So if you want to teach self defence to the elderly, you are going to tell them they can't do so it without sparring?

Cant do it well.
We have put two 55 plus guys in the ring by the way.

 

[drop bear]

And there is usually a referee there to break them up if it gets too hairy.

If somone starts doing sonething illegal or one fighter cant defend himself.

From a practical standpoint there becomes a small chance a fighter can recover from that point.

 

[Drose427]

It's not that they have no interest in NHB competitions, they have no interest in actually fighting or getting hit to advance their abilities and expose their limitations. Every major MA that lends itself to NHB competitions has a very heavy sparring component that turns off many practitioners for a variety of reasons. Kyokushin for example has a full contact sparring portion that is a major part of the style. Many people don't want to get really punched in the body or kicked in the head on a regular basis, so they'll go to a softer, more kata-based karate system where they don't have to get hit, or worry about having to spar 30 big karate guys to get their black belt one day.

In the end, many people would rather kick/punch air instead of getting choked out by a big sweaty man. It's only natural.

But it is that they have no interest in NHB..

Kyokushin, WTF TKD, Boxing, Sanda, are all full contact, blood, sweat, tears, KO styles but they arent all rushing to NHB.

 

[Hanzou]

But it is that they have no interest in NHB..

Kyokushin, WTF TKD, Boxing, Sanda, are all full contact, blood, sweat, tears, KO styles but they arent all rushing to NHB.

Actually, there's plenty of Kyokushin, TKD, Boxing, and Sanda in NHB. Heck, all of those styles have their own form of full-contact competition, and plenty of fighters utilize those styles for their base.

If NO ONE or close to zero from those styles were entering NHB competitions, or participated in their own full-contact competitions you'd have an argument.

 

[Phobius]

Actually, there's plenty of Kyokushin, TKD, Boxing, and Sanda in NHB. Heck, all of those styles have their own form of full-contact competition, and plenty of fighters utilize those styles for their base.

If NO ONE or close to zero from those styles were entering NHB competitions, or participated in their own full-contact competitions you'd have an argument.

Not really involved in what you are talking about. But one thing, you dont have an argument either. In order for this to be an argument in your point of view you need to provide actual statistical data to make a statement that it is way more than "NO ONE or close to zero" from those styles entering NHB competitions.

What is it with all these arguments lately on the forum. Please provide statistics to your arguments, and if you can not, then you better accept that other people will add arguments without need of proof right back at you.


Oh, I am not saying you are right or wrong. Just that you can´t state that your arguments are proven because you say so, and others are not because they did not provide facts..... or actually you can. It just feels so silly to read it if so.

 

[Hanzou]

Not really involved in what you are talking about. But one thing, you dont have an argument either. In order for this to be an argument in your point of view you need to provide actual statistical data to make a statement that it is way more than "NO ONE or close to zero" from those styles entering NHB competitions.

Actually I don't since that wasn't my argument. My argument was that plenty of people from those styles are participating in NHB competition, and their styles even have NHB competition integrated into them, making the transition a bit easier for them.

My other argument is that the reason we don't see a lot of NHB participation from certain styles is because the culture of those styles attract a certain type of person. Typically, that person simply doesn't like a lot of fighting and would prefer to do mainly katas/forms or choreographed demos instead of heavy sparring and fighting.

 

[drop bear]

There is only one thing like self defense and that's self defense. Other things can have elements in common but there is nothing like the real thing.

The point here before it gets too messy is that a lot of these full contact competitions are still an example of good fighting even if they are not NHB.

There are quality bjj fighters who are not nhb fighters.

There is a different mesure to this argument. The guys who are big fish in little ponds wont be seen crossing hands with people anywhere.

Being the gun fighter of a group of mabye ten shlubs is what it is.

 

[Paul_D]

Cant do it well.
We have put two 55 plus guys in the ring by the way.

Nice I have a 50 year old friend who is not only amateur boxer but he also does bare knuckle street fights for £1,000 a time.

Anyway, why can't they they defend themselves without going to a gym and sparring? They aren't getting into bar brawls or street fights, they have different types of self defence concerns.

 

[drop bear]

Nice I have a 50 year old friend who is not only amateur boxer but he also does bare knuckle street fights for £1,000 a time.

Anyway, why can't they they defend themselves without going to a gym and sparring? They aren't getting into bar brawls or street fights, they have different types of self defence concerns.

You can defend yourself to a level. But you loose out on refining a whole bunch of core principles that you learn from sparring.

 

[Paul_D]

You can defend yourself to a level. But you loose out on refining a whole bunch of core principles that you learn from sparring.

Thanks, I think I get what you are getting at now

 

[RTKDCMB]

It's not that they have no interest in NHB competitions, they have no interest in actually fighting or getting hit to advance their abilities and expose their limitations.

NHB full contact competitions are not the only way to advance one's abilities and expose their limitations. It is just your bias and ignorance of those styles that lead you to that conclusion.

Every major MA that lends itself to NHB competitions has a very heavy sparring component that turns off many practitioners for a variety of reasons.

There is more than just your definition of heavy sparring. Our style has turned people off after witnessing the sparring at one of our black belt tests.

In the end, many people would rather kick/punch air instead of getting choked out by a big sweaty man. It's only natural.

And many people would rather roll around on the floor instead of getting kicked or punched. Even Royce Gracie has stated that he doesn't like being hit.

If NO ONE or close to zero from those styles were entering NHB competitions, or participated in their own full-contact competitions you'd have an argument.

NO ONE or close to zero from my style is entering NHB competitions, or participating in our own full-contact competitions so he does have an argument

Typically, that person simply doesn't like a lot of fighting and would prefer to do mainly katas/forms or choreographed demos instead of heavy sparring and fighting.

Typically you offer only conjecture and personal opinion.

 

[Hanzou]

NHB full contact competitions are not the only way to advance one's abilities and expose their limitations.

I never said it was.

There is more than just your definition of heavy sparring. Our style has turned people off after witnessing the sparring at one of our black belt tests.

I'm sure.

And many people would rather roll around on the floor instead of getting kicked or punched.

And "rolling around on the floor" is still better than kicking and punching air.

Even Royce Gracie has stated that he doesn't like being hit.

Yes, so they developed a system where you minimize the possibility of getting hit. Instead of standing toe to toe with someone and exchanging punishing blows, you take your opponent down and control them. Of course we should also remember that once the Gracies took someone to the ground they starting striking them from a dominant position.

Worked out pretty good for them wouldn't you say?

NO ONE or close to zero from my style is entering NHB competitions, or participating in our own full-contact competitions so he does have an argument

TKD? Plenty of NHB fighters come from a TKD base. The particular style of TKD you practice is a different story altogether.

 

[RTKDCMB]

The particular style of TKD you practice is a different story altogether.

That is because I do a self defense based style and getting injured in training by full contact fighting would kind of defeat the purpose.

 

[Hanzou]

That is because I do a self defense based style and getting injured in training by full contact fighting would kind of defeat the purpose.

Isn't the entire purpose of your training to be able to kick and punch someone into submission? The idea that you're avoiding practicing the purpose of your training because you're afraid of getting injured is pretty funny. I mean, you're not learning ballroom dancing (which you can also get injured in), you're learning how to literally beat someone down with your bare hands.

Which begs the question; How do you learn to beat someone down with your bare hands without actually beating someone down with your bare hands?

 

[RTKDCMB]

And "rolling around on the floor" is still better than kicking and punching air.

And if that was all the striking art was doing then I would agree.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Isn't the entire purpose of your training to be able to kick and punch someone into submission?

No, the purpose of my training is to defend myself when someone attacks me not to win competitions or beat people up.

The idea that you're avoiding practicing the purpose of your training because you're afraid of getting injured is pretty funny.

That would only be true if the purpose of my training was to compete in NHB fighting competitions, it is not. NHB fighting takes a toll on the fighters bodies in injuries that are not necessary for learning self defense. If you get injured in class then you cannot defend yourself as effectively until you are fully recovered. It has nothing to do with fear of injury.

you're learning how to literally beat someone down with your bare hands.

No I am learning to finish off an attacker as efficiently as possible without getting hurt or using excessive force.

How do you learn to beat someone down with your bare hands without actually beating someone down with your bare hands?

In much the same way you learn to shoot people without actually shooting people.

I don't know about anyone else but I joined a martial art so people WOULDN'T punch me in the head.

 

[Hanzou]

And if that was all the striking art was doing then I would agree.

That would depend on the striking art right? Not all of them just kick and punch air, and they're far better because of it.

No, the purpose of my training is to defend myself when someone attacks me not to win competitions or beat people up.

So if someone is attacking you, you're not striking (beating) them in order to protect yourself? How else would you be able to stop an attacker getting physical with you? Mind games?

That would only be true if the purpose of my training was to compete in NHB fighting competitions, it is not.

Your entire martial art is based around punching and kicking someone. What other purpose is there for it to exist? Cut down all of the philosophy and Mr. Myagi mumbo-jumbo and the entire purpose behind TKD is to kick or punch the crap out of someone. We can even assign a self defense angle to it; Sport TKD is mutual agreed upon butt kicking, self defense TKD is when you don't agree and you kick their butt.

You can dress up a pig any way you like, but its still a pig.

And sorry, but injuries come with the territory, if you're learning to fight that is.

In much the same way you learn to shoot people without actually shooting people,

Aiming and firing a firearm is far more simple than learning and applying martial art.

In my style someone would get laughed off the mat if they said that someone who has never sparred could submit someone who sparred constantly. I find it interesting that other styles actually believe such a thing is possible.

 

[Phobius]

Aiming and firing a firearm is far more simple than learning and applying martial art.

Firing a firearm at someone is as far away from simple as one can get. No matter how much you train, you will most likely freeze when needing to pull the trigger unless something else like fear can push you over any sane border.

Also shooting someone will probably destroy you mentally more than any martial artist ever could physically.