Wing Chun vs MMA

[RTKDCMB]

Which is kicking and punching air, and not teaching you how to hit.

It is teaching you how to strike with correct technique, hitting the pads teaches you how to hit with impact. Sparring with full contact can lead to lack of balance, poor distancing and a lack of control.

so you're saying that if I stand a foot away from a punching bag there's no way to control the amount of force I can generate in a strike?

No that is not what I am saying and if you were a foot away from the punching bag then you only have more limited options (i.e you could not do things like side kicks etc). What I am saying is basically force equals mass times acceleration no matter what the destination of the strike or what is in its way. I strike with maximum power no matter if I am doing basics, patterns, drills, pad work or breaking. The force I use for sparring depends on who I am sparring, e.g If I am sparring an adult male black belt of similar experience/ability I am striking with full speed and power, if I am sparring a 12 year old girl, not so much.

 

[Hanzou]

It is teaching you how to strike with correct technique, hitting the pads teaches you how to hit with impact. Sparring with full contact can lead to lack of balance, poor distancing and a lack of control.

So boxers, MMA fighters, Kickboxers, Etc. all have poor distancing, balance, and a lack of control?

Okay....

No that is not what I am saying and if you were a foot away from the punching bag then you only have more limited options (i.e you could not do things like side kicks etc). What I am saying is basically force equals mass times acceleration no matter what the destination of the strike or what is in its way. I strike with maximum power no matter if I am doing basics, patterns, drills, pad work or breaking. The force I use for sparring depends on who I am sparring, e.g If I am sparring an adult male black belt of similar experience/ability I am striking with full speed and power, if I am sparring a 12 year old girl, not so much.

Again, that's not what I said. I said that you can control the power of strikes regardless of distance or extension.

 

[Xue Sheng]

So boxers, MMA fighters, Kickboxers,

All who, as some part of their training, train by kicking and punching the air

 

[drop bear]

All who, as some part of their training, train by kicking and punching the air

It is like a jigsaw. Without all the prices you don't get the full picture.

(I just made that up)

 

[Hanzou]

All who, as some part of their training, train by kicking and punching the air

Training that is supported by far more moderate to heavy sparring.

There are arts that don't have sparring. There are arts that don't have kata.

Of those two, which one do you think is more likely to produce the better fighter?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Training that is supported by far more moderate to heavy sparring.

There are arts that don't have sparring. There are arts that don't have kata.

Of those two, which one do you think is more likely to produce the better fighter?

There are arts that have all of the above, Wing Chun an also be one of those, as are many traditional MA. It is not usually black and white, nor is it as cut and dried as you seem to think it is or want it to be.

But if you have a person who specializes in Qinna, he does not spar, do kata or kick and punch in the air. But, whether you want to believe it or not, you really do not want to get near him. He may not spar, but he does train what he knows.

But in general you need to spar. But that was never in question. You, in a previous post used punching and kicking in the air

Which is kicking and punching air, and not teaching you how to hit.

as if it was a deciding factor in effectiveness or usefulness... was simply pointing out that boxers, MMA fighters, Kick boxers also did the same, since you did use them as an example

 

[drop bear]

It is teaching you how to strike with correct technique, hitting the pads teaches you how to hit with impact. Sparring with full contact can lead to lack of balance, poor distancing and a lack of control.



No that is not what I am saying and if you were a foot away from the punching bag then you only have more limited options (i.e you could not do things like side kicks etc). What I am saying is basically force equals mass times acceleration no matter what the destination of the strike or what is in its way. I strike with maximum power no matter if I am doing basics, patterns, drills, pad work or breaking. The force I use for sparring depends on who I am sparring, e.g If I am sparring an adult male black belt of similar experience/ability I am striking with full speed and power, if I am sparring a 12 year old girl, not so much.

Punching isn't measured in force by the way. So that equation does not really count.

Just to be semantic.

 

[Hanzou]

There are arts that have all of the above, Wing Chun an also be one of those, as are many traditional MA. It is not usually black and white, nor is it as cut and dried as you seem to think it is or want it to be.

And we both know that there are plenty of TMAs out there that don't believe in sparring at all. That's what I was talking about.

But if you have a person who specializes in Qinna, he does not spar, do kata or kick and punch in the air. But, whether you want to believe it or not, you really do not want to get near him. He may not spar, but he does train what he knows.

Yet amazingly no one with this incredible power can demonstrate it in an objective environment, or when a person is trying to punch them in the face.

in general you need to spar. But that was never in question. You, in a previous post used punching and kicking in the air

Blame it on my years in Shotokan and then transitioning to arts without kata and realizing that they are a waste of time, typically in place to pad belt testing.

as if it was a deciding factor in effectiveness or usefulness... was simply pointing out that boxers, MMA fighters, Kick boxers also did the same, since you did use them as an example

I wouldn't consider what boxers and MMA fighters do to be "kata". A boxer shadow boxing for example is using techniques they're actually going to use in a fight. They're not doing exotic or expressive stances or movements, they're moving and striking exactly like they fight.

 

[Xue Sheng]

And we both know that there are plenty of TMAs out there that don't believe in sparring at all. That's what I was talking about.

Will not dispute that

Yet amazingly no one with this incredible power can demonstrate it in an objective environment, or when a person is trying to punch them in the face.

So you know and have seen every Qinna person and have extensive background in Qinna and know when and where to use it then right?

Blame it on my years in Shotokan and then transitioning to arts without kata and realizing that they are a waste of time, typically in place to pad belt testing.

So the study of one art makes you a master of all then, is that it?

Although my years in Jujutsu, TKD, Changquan, Wing Chun, Taijiquan, Sanda, XIngyiquan tell me that forms have their use. However I will not say there are not schools out there that are approaching it in a way that is a waste of time and are not using it to pad belt tests. Sorry you were in a bad school, but one style or one or even a few bad schools does not make one a judge of all schools and all styles

I wouldn't consider what boxers and MMA fighters do to be "kata". A boxer shadow boxing for example is using techniques they're actually going to use in a fight. They're not doing exotic or expressive stances or movements, they're moving and striking exactly like they fight.

Never even mentioned kata. I was referring to your post about hitting in the air, and it was a direct quote. However I am more than willing to accept the fact that you might have meant hitting and kicking the air in kata, you just were not clear on that point at that time

 

[Hanzou]

Will not dispute that


So you know and have seen every Qinna person and have extensive background in Qinna and know when and where to use it then right?

I didn't say that. I said it would be nice to see it utilized against a non compliant opponent in an objective fashion.

So the study of one art makes you a master of all then, is that it?

Although my years in Jujutsu, TKD, Changquan, Wing Chun, Taijiquan, Sanda, XIngyiquan tell me that forms have their use. However I will not say there are not schools out there that are approaching it in a way that is a waste of time and are not using it to pad belt tests. Sorry you were in a bad school, but one style or one or even a few bad schools does not make one a judge of all schools and all styles

I never said that studying Shotokan made me an expert in anything. Further, Shotokan wasn't the only art with kata that I studied. However, Shotokan did help me realize that they aren't really necessary, and that the only reason they still exist in most systems is for traditional purposes. Practicing styles without kata solidified that stance, since the kata-less styles are very effective w/o kata practice.

Never even mentioned kata. I was referring to your post about hitting in the air, and it was a direct quote. However I am more than willing to accept the fact that you might have meant hitting and kicking the air in kata, you just were not clear on that point at that time

And I was responding to the notion that a boxer shadow boxing is the same as a crane stylist hopping on one leg and spreading his arms out imitating the bird.

It's not.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Punching isn't measured in force by the way. So that equation does not really count.

Just to be semantic.

You need to produce a force for a punch to do anything, just to be semantic.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Blame it on my years in Shotokan and then transitioning to arts without kata and realizing that they are a waste of time, typically in place to pad belt testing.

Of course you never for once consider that either you or the school you studied at were just not very good at it, you didn't understand it or your school didn't teach it properly or it was just your school that used it to pad belt testing or that you misunderstood the purpose of their kata etc.

 

[RTKDCMB]

So boxers, MMA fighters, Kickboxers, Etc. all have poor distancing, balance, and a lack of control?

Okay....

Yeah, a lot of them do. They strike and just about fall over, and sometimes do fall over, they kick too close, they take wild swings, hit with the wrong part of the fist etc. take your blinders off and look closely.

Again, that's not what I said. I said that you can control the power of strikes regardless of distance or extension.

Controlling the power of the strikes is the easy part, controlling how much of that power is transferred to the target at will requires correct technique and skill that completely depends on extension and distance.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I never said that studying Shotokan made me an expert in anything.

No, you just act like it.

Further, Shotokan wasn't the only art with kata that I studied.

Then perhaps the common denominator was you and not kata?

 

[Buka]

On the subject of "hitting air" two of my instructors, Bill Wallace and Joe Lewis, had completely different views on the subject.
Wallace always says, "I only hit air or people, I never hit bags."
Lewis always said, "I only hit bags or people, I never hit air."

Both seemed to know what they were talking about. Maybe it's just personal opinion.

 

[FriedRice]

If Wing Chun was really good, we'd see it in MMA.

 

[Steve]

Yeah, a lot of them do. They strike and just about fall over, and sometimes do fall over, they kick too close, they take wild swings, hit with the wrong part of the fist etc. take your blinders off and look closely.



Controlling the power of the strikes is the easy part, controlling how much of that power is transferred to the target at will requires correct technique and skill that completely depends on extension and distance.

Hold on. Are you suggesting that combat sports competitors lack technique and skill to control extension and distance? I don't know about that. I'd be very careful drawing conclusions like that if your experience is limited to watching matches on tv. There is a huge difference between two equally matched martial artists squaring off and what those same martial artists can do outside of these matches.

An easy way to figure out whether your own timing is solid would be to work out with a variety of MAists from other styles. Not suggesting yiu train in MMA if its not your thing, but practicing your technique with them would answer some important questions. Might also help with some of the misunderstanding. Vice Versa is also true, of course. Tez trains karate and MMA. Surely there's someone out there to help you test your theories.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Hold on. Are you suggesting that combat sports competitors lack technique and skill to control extension and distance?

Many of them do

An easy way to figure out whether your own timing is solid would be to work out with a variety of MAists from other styles.

There have been plenty of students from other martial arts over the years that have trained with us that I have sparred.

 

[drop bear]

You need to produce a force for a punch to do anything, just to be semantic.

No.

In physics, a force is any interaction that, when unopposed, will change the motion of an object. In other words, a force can cause an object with mass to change its velocity (which includes to begin moving from a state of rest), i.e., to accelerate.

 

[drop bear]

Many of them do



There have been plenty of students from other martial arts over the years that have trained with us that I have sparred.

What level of contact?