Wing Chun/Tsun + Brazillian Jiujitsu =

[MJS]

the problem with emin's stuff that i've seen is that he usually is demonstrating how to anti-grapple someone who is not a good grappler. it seems like it would be effective against an untrained guy who maybe tries to drag you to the ground, but his techniques often seem to capitalize on one or two crucial mistakes that a good grappler shouldn't make.

jf

I was thinking the same thing. And at risk of sounding like the other group...you know, the ones that eat, breath, sleep and poop BJJ...I do think it would be interesting to see the art (WC) against a grappler who is really working BJJ, not dummying. Frankly, I'd love to see the Gracie/Emin fight, but I doubt that'll ever happen. I'd love to see a good WC fighter in the UFC or similar event, as well.

So let me put things in to focus...What Si-Je appears to be saying is BJJ sucks..It sucks bad...its one side and if you use it in street your gonna get hurt bad...BJJ is over commercialize...But I could be wrong...she may not be saying that...

I also think she is saying that grappling and wrestling are good arts...Just not BJJ...if you practice Judo, JuiJitsu or Aikido or even Wrestling thats good. But BJJ sucks bad...Its a horrible Art...if you want to combine arts combine Judo and WC or Juijitsu and WC...But leave that BJJ alone...

So tell me am I correct in what you thinking Si-Je...if I am wrong I stand corrected...lol..

Umm...yeah, that about sums it up I think.

I personally have not met any BJJ fighters. So I can not judge rightfully. I have not had the priviledge of that experience. But I think the art depends on the purpose...I could understand why somepeople would want to mesh the two..Their thinking I will gain skills fighting and submissions on ground from BJJ and standing fighting from WC...chances are in streets you may use more WC than BJJ...and if you go to ground you might get stabbed or stomped by ten size tens in your dome...let me make simple...the average thug aint fighting one on one...They bringing their friends...to jump you...two big thugs is enough to injury you bad if you do a take down...So just becareful...But as for the cage...I don't know...how is bjj doing?

Yup, that sums it up. IMO, I feel that it gives great ground defense/offense. In the real world, would I want to roll around looking for a submission? Of course not, and for the reasons that have been mentioned countless times.

 

[arnisador]

Just curious...why do you guys like ground fighting so much?Does it give you an advantage when you go against a skilled striker who you can not defeat standing up?

It certainly could...drop below a chain punch for a double-leg takedown to change the dynamic of the fight--but it's also a matter of being prepared!

 

[Si-Je]

Yes, you have it! lol! Leave that BJJ alone. hahaha.
BJJ hasn't been winning so much in the cage either, strikers are winning, and alot of these big champs are devoted martial artists to their respective styles. Good old Iceman, Kempo guy, that Japanese Karate guy he's 100% martial artist (can't remeber his name) then good old Cung Lee, he's wushu champ and now middle heavyweight champ in MMA for Elite Sports I believe.
Ya'll dig up the names, don't have time.

Plus, what I'm also saying is that once you really get the WC/WT concepts and techniques down you don't need the Judo, Ju-jitsu, Aikido, whatever. You start to strip away the inessentials.

As for Carlson Gracie Jr., I don't care about what he advises as practical fighting. I don't care what he says is Wing Chun. Yes, I see ya'll like the BJJ, it's like crack to you or something, can't let it alone. Here on a Wing Chun forum getting all amped up on BJJ posting their videos giving free advertising. lol!
It's very interesting the way the collective memory and thought works and you see it in action here. I'm fighting for thought. Thought to stay pure to what I train without perverting, twisting, or watering it down with other arts concepts of fighting. This is spreading like a disease, and the cure will be VIDEO PROOF! (the crowd goes wild!!!)
We will work very dilligently on gaining a "video library" of whatever "fights" we can get hubbie into. Since he's the "Sifu" and that's what ya'll will want to see. But, this will take time, and volenteers! lol! Which we've had bum luck getting big guys to come and sparr with hubbie. We've recruited right out of the gyms where the guys pump the big iron, to other MMA schools, etc. No luck, no one wants to really do it when it comes right down to it. So, you'll just have to be happy with video from him and students, he'll get some more marine guys in class soon that train MCMAP. They'll be great! Nice and stiff, rigid and tough to take a punch. And fisty (non-compliant) lol!
When we get the funds in the next couple of months we will register hubbie, get the medical ('cuz he be older man), and all that jazz and hook up a nice little cage match for ya'll.
I'm sorry the cage match I posted from the other school in New York wasn't enough for your appetites. Will try to find more soon.
But, I'm afraid your just going to have to wait.

So let me put things in to focus...What Si-Je appears to be saying is BJJ sucks..It sucks bad...its one side and if you use it in street your gonna get hurt bad...BJJ is over commercialize...But I could be wrong...she may not be saying that...

I also think she is saying that grappling and wrestling are good arts...Just not BJJ...if you practice Judo, JuiJitsu or Aikido or even Wrestling thats good. But BJJ sucks bad...Its a horrible Art...if you want to combine arts combine Judo and WC or Juijitsu and WC...But leave that BJJ alone...

So tell me am I correct in what you thinking Si-Je...if I am wrong I stand corrected...lol..


I personally have not met any BJJ fighters. So I can not judge rightfully. I have not had the priviledge of that experience. But I think the art depends on the purpose...I could understand why somepeople would want to mesh the two..Their thinking I will gain skills fighting and submissions on ground from BJJ and standing fighting from WC...chances are in streets you may use more WC than BJJ...and if you go to ground you might get stabbed or stomped by ten size tens in your dome...let me make simple...the average thug aint fighting one on one...They bringing their friends...to jump you...two big thugs is enough to injury you bad if you do a take down...So just becareful...But as for the cage...I don't know...how is bjj doing?

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Okay...Thats actually one of the points I was sharing with Si-Je...some westerners are better boxers or ground wrestlers...So for them to gravitate to wrestling or cross train makes their style come alive...because they usually have to make up for what they lack in their art with something their body is design for...Some people are design to wrestlers...I got a friend he is like 6'4" and 280lbs on a diet. lol...But he would do well using Wrestling techniques and Muay Thai In my humble opinion...I would think Wing Chun would be good for him...but since he so big...bigger than the average street brawler...He has alot strength anyway...so Wrestling would be a great art for him...then he adds some Muay Thai too it...He would be a dangerous guy...I mean the minute he kicks someone with one of those logs...they going to buckle...Put this way...If This guy got six months of training in Muay Thai....I doubt Kimbo Slice would fight in backyard street fight. An then with his size advantage the average five eleven six foot guy would no chance even wrestling him...

So I can see some advantage...but if your a little guy...you may want a style that relies on knock punches and speed...little guys are more equip to styles that have skills in movements...this is what will benefit them..

personally speaking, the ground comes naturally to me. it's not a belief that groundfighting is in itself superior, it's just superior for me.

 

[jarrod]

Okay...Thats actually one of the points I was sharing with Si-Je...some westerners are better boxers or ground wrestlers...So for them to gravitate to wrestling or cross train makes their style come alive...because they usually have to make up for what they lack in their art with something their body is design for...Some people are design to wrestlers...I got a friend he is like 6'4" and 280lbs on a diet. lol...But he would do well using Wrestling techniques and Muay Thai In my humble opinion...I would think Wing Chun would be good for him...but since he so big...bigger than the average street brawler...He has alot strength anyway...so Wrestling would be a great art for him...then he adds some Muay Thai too it...He would be a dangerous guy...I mean the minute he kicks someone with one of those logs...they going to buckle...Put this way...If This guy got six months of training in Muay Thai....I doubt Kimbo Slice would fight in backyard street fight. An then with his size advantage the average five eleven six foot guy would no chance even wrestling him...

So I can see some advantage...but if your a little guy...you may want a style that relies on knock punches and speed...little guys are more equip to styles that have skills in movements...this is what will benefit them..

personally speaking, the ground comes naturally to me. it's not a belief that groundfighting is in itself superior, it's just superior for me.

one of the things i disagree with si-je about is that jujitsu secretly relies on strength. when i started grappling i was 150lbs, & with a little practice i was able to tap guys 200-300lbs. so i know that with proper technique jujitsu can overcome strength. i don't train bjj, & i have my criticisms of it, but i have trained with enough bjj guys that i respect it. virtually every mma champion out there has some training in bjj, even if it's not their primary style. fedor doesn't, but he is excellent at sambo & judo, which is still grappling.

jf

 

[KamonGuy2]

Firstly, to answer the whole 'BJJ hasn't been doing so well in the cage lately' comment by Sije - When fighters fight in the cage, they come from one end of the cage to the other and meet in the middle, meaning that the striker has the first move (ie unless the BJJ guy runs in and goes for a takedown, he will have to receive shots from the striker)

You will find that most MMA guys use BJJ, just like most MMA guys also use striking. Hence why it is called MMA...

Going back to the original thread, it is not essential that chunners learn BJJ, but it is extremely important that they learn some kind of ground game

In Kamon, although BJJ is encouraged, Master Chan would be just as happy to see his senior students proficient in catch wrestling or sambo etc

You cannot live your wing chun lives with the motto 'I will never go to ground'. In most cases it is extremely difficult for a chunner to get taken down, but think of situations where a person pushes you back over a car bonnet, a table in a pub, or when you trip over or get another person tackling you from behind

If people are so adamant and blind to say they will NEVER get taken down, then I don't really have time for intelligent conversation with them

BJJ is a good match in wing chun because it is more about sticking and trapping your opponent than most grappling styles. It also doesn't worry too much about strength. Obviously it is always better to have a bit of strength, but because BJJ works using leverage and angles, it is a very good fit with Wing Chun

Remember that you really only need the basic principles of BJJ. I am definately no master, but if I get taken down, I know basic positions that will greatly increase my chances of safety. Generally you always want to get back to the position you started from (standing up), so I don't work too much on things like arm bars or locks because they are more for sport

 

[MJS]

one of the things i disagree with si-je about is that jujitsu secretly relies on strength. when i started grappling i was 150lbs, & with a little practice i was able to tap guys 200-300lbs. so i know that with proper technique jujitsu can overcome strength. i don't train bjj, & i have my criticisms of it, but i have trained with enough bjj guys that i respect it. virtually every mma champion out there has some training in bjj, even if it's not their primary style. fedor doesn't, but he is excellent at sambo & judo, which is still grappling.

jf

This is exactly the point I was trying to get across as well. If we look back at Helio Gracie, he states that he adapted the art to suit him, due to his small frame. It apparently worked for him. Hmmmm.......

 

[MJS]

Firstly, to answer the whole 'BJJ hasn't been doing so well in the cage lately' comment by Sije - When fighters fight in the cage, they come from one end of the cage to the other and meet in the middle, meaning that the striker has the first move (ie unless the BJJ guy runs in and goes for a takedown, he will have to receive shots from the striker)

Agreed. One thing that I've noticed is that the fighters of today have changed their focus from what the UFC used to be. Early days had shown a style vs. style match, where Royce used his JJ skill to dominate. He clinched, got a strong position and went in for the sub. Today, we see the G&P much more, yet fighters do have some sort of grappling background.

You will find that most MMA guys use BJJ, just like most MMA guys also use striking. Hence why it is called MMA...

Agree.

Going back to the original thread, it is not essential that chunners learn BJJ, but it is extremely important that they learn some kind of ground game

In Kamon, although BJJ is encouraged, Master Chan would be just as happy to see his senior students proficient in catch wrestling or sambo etc

Agree, and while I have mentioned BJJ alot, I've also mentioned other grappling arts, ie Sambo, Judo and even working with a wrestler, seeing that this was the topic of the thread.

You cannot live your wing chun lives with the motto 'I will never go to ground'. In most cases it is extremely difficult for a chunner to get taken down, but think of situations where a person pushes you back over a car bonnet, a table in a pub, or when you trip over or get another person tackling you from behind

If people are so adamant and blind to say they will NEVER get taken down, then I don't really have time for intelligent conversation with them

Sadly, this mindset is present in every art. I hear Kenpo guys talking about solid stances, etc., but I'm sorry, if it was that easy, I'd think that the MMA guys would be going out to find this secret solid stance method, and adapt it to their training so they'd never get taken down. Of course, they also seem to forget that its possible to slip, so having knowledge of getting back up safely is important as well.

BJJ is a good match in wing chun because it is more about sticking and trapping your opponent than most grappling styles. It also doesn't worry too much about strength. Obviously it is always better to have a bit of strength, but because BJJ works using leverage and angles, it is a very good fit with Wing Chun

Agreed. IMHO the majority of success starts with a solid position. If you dont have a solid position, where everything is just right, any sub. you attempt will most likely fail. I roll with one of my teachers and he will get me in the side mount. Its so hard to move as well as breath, due to the fact that he has everything so tight.

Remember that you really only need the basic principles of BJJ. I am definately no master, but if I get taken down, I know basic positions that will greatly increase my chances of safety. Generally you always want to get back to the position you started from (standing up), so I don't work too much on things like arm bars or locks because they are more for sport

Exactly! I'm far from a master myself. Likewise, I work the basics and its worked for me. I love to roll and that is one of my 2009 goals...to get on the mat on a more regular basis.

 

[profesormental]

Greetings.

First of all, grappling is FUN to me and my students!!

Just as we play Chi Sao, we play grappling!

Specially for competitive minded people, it is a nice set of rules that you can go all out and control a person.

I started BJJ to learn how to defend against it... and I fell in love with just playing around and having fun! Like a sport.

Some play basketball, I grapple and kickbox and fight!

In the end, it just depends how you train. Biomechanical principles as applied to sports or combat are the fundamental laws that have to be used and applied.

When we train Wing Chun for self defense and personal combat... it is very different than when we play grappling or Chi Sao.

Yet when my objectives are restraint and control of attacker, then I don't blow up their face with strikes... I can use Chin Na that has an expanded toolbox of Kano JuJutsu in it. (BJJ is old school Kano Jujutsu, just in case you don't like BJJ... )

So we have sports training time for different competitions. This training slot we can use for grappling. We also train different kickboxing rules, like San Da, and sometimes mix it up MMA style.

We have a slot for learning good body mechanics and drills.

And we have slots for personal combat applications to scenarios and self defense simulations.

So, In my case, I just like training in grappling/BJJ and have found good learnings in it. Many other reasons, yet that is the one that matters the most.

Juan M. Mercado

 

[dungeonworks]

Okay, in the video the guy on the bottom has both his arms locked out on the opponet's single arm.. While you do this the guy on top punches your lights out with their other free hand. WT/WC does not commit both hands to one arm of the attacker. Grade 1 stuff. Basics. Big no no.

You may think that this technique is applied that slow in real time. It isn't...it happens quickly. If the guy is "punching your lights out", he cannot be stabilizing himself with his arm and leg trapped at the same time you send him flying. Think of a kickstand being knocked out from under a bicycle.

A groin shot with the elbow is great here, I would prefer chain punching the groin, that would bring their face to where I can reach it, and then chian punch their face as you roll them off with your hips.
You can still use your hips to roll them off, anyone would do this.
You can also use your chi sau to defend while your on the bottom, whether they punch at you, or try to lock out and arm or choke.
This is just basic anti-grappling the first stuff you learn, chi sau on the ground comes in a little latter.

There again, coulda', shoulda', woulda'. Easy to see from third person view, while the people are going slow to show the technique. It is used much faster than that and thier are variables not seen from 3rd person. Besides that, groin strikes are far too overated.

What you do striking on your feet, you do on the ground. Your defelction on your feet you use on the ground.

Yeah, one can really let their hands go with a BJJ guy on top of you...totally unimpeded!!! :BSmeter:

As for that old moldy chueng and emin fight, I've seen that video so many times, and heard people say, "see! grappling is the way to go!" Sifu Emin did it!
So.
That was before he developed the anti-grappling. It may have inspired him to create it in the first place, who knows. But, what he did was NOT BJJ. Nowhere near. Just because it's a ground fighting technique doesn't mean they all come from BJJ.
And no, I totally don't see ANY WC/WT concepts or principles in BJJ at all. If anything, these grapplers and BJJ stylists have already defeated you in the head. You already believe there is just no way to keep from being taken to the ground. So, you WILL be taken to the ground in a fight, because you've already decided that outcome.
Another rule and concept of WC/WT: don't anticipate.

Here's some interesting video instructional to Wing Chun concept on the ground.

The guy he's demonstrating on he states was a "long time in Ju-jitsu" or wrestling or whatever. At the end he "grapples" with the guy to demonstrate why this isn't advantageous to you.
Learn this stuff if your a chunner, I thought everyone did this because hubbie teaches this. I didn't know he mixed two masters my first two years of training, or what that ment.

When I started this thread, it wasn't a Wing Chun vs BJJ, nor has anyone said to use it over Wing Chun.....


Oh hell, nevermind.... :argue:

You're right.

 

[Steve]

I'm content to allow Si-Je her zeal for keeping her wing chun pure. I just can't allow the BJJ not doing well "in the cage" comment to go. UFC 91 was a showcase, between Maia's total domination of Nate Quarry and win by RNC, Hazelett's win by armbar over McRory in what was one of the best examples of pure rubber guard I've ever seen, and Kenny Florian's RNC win over Joe Stephenson, who's base is wrestling and has himself won many fights by guillotine.

It goes in waves, but every fighter has a strong grappling foundation.

 

[Si-Je]

Okay guys, I get hyper and am not clear sometimes. BJJ has been beaten in the ring several times, it is totally possible to defeat a takedown with striking concepts, that's my main point. It is possible to use 100% wing chun to defend against a wrestler/BJJ whatever strickly ground fighting style. It has been done numerous times.
Yes, people have been tapped out.

To break a joint only takes 2-6 lbs of concentrated pressure. (depending on the joint, i.e. elbow, knee, wrist) Muscle built around the joint can help and hinder a person usually taking away some flexability if one bulks up too much, but that muscle mass can protect the joint making it harder to break or "submit".
So, yes, it doen't take alot of strength to submit or break an arm on a larger opponent.
BUT..
That larger opponent has other limbs, moving, punching, kicking, elbowing limbs to deal with while you concentrate all your time and effort on one joint. See?

I started adapting WT/WC concepts to the JJJ I used to know so well, just to find out it stopped being JJJ technique. WT/WC has joint locks too, but they are done very differently. They are usually done with only one hand or arm on the joint, with no "lock out" on the arm or wrist. This leaves your other hand free to deflect or strike as needed. This doesn't force the joint lock, and if the lock is lost you continue chainpunching or flow into whatever is needed to continue to attack the opponent.
So, what I thought was using JJJ with WC/WT concepts BECAME wing chun.
To commit your entire body into a joint lock and force the submission does require more strength than is needed to execute a joint lock. When I wrap my whole body around a guys arm, thus clinging to him while he picks me up off the ground and slams me on my back, neck or head is just not effecient! And it's painful, and to me silly. When I can aquire joint locks in other fashions that are not so harmful and dangerous to my small frame.

No, I don't like BJJ, we all know that, because I see it as
largely and grossly inefficient. It takes too long to get into position for most of those techniques, too much effort, too much energy spent on one movement, too much commitment of the entire body for too long on one set technique.

I cringe to imagine a small woman doing these techniques on a large man on the concrete in the street, with nails, glass, wood, trash, and oil, etc... The road rash and body slames required to fall to the ground and execute these techniques I see as a horrible danger to anyone trying to use this in street or self-defense situations.
Like i've said: can you do these techniques between two parked cars in the parking lot, on a staircase, in a narrow hallway, in a bus isle, INSIDE a parked car, in your bathroom (especially if it's as tiny as mine! lol!) Wing Chun is designed for these situations specifically and these are your battle grounds in the real world, not some octogon, not some cage. If one feels they NEED a "ground game" for the cage, great, use BJJ (I still wouldn't but that's me. It seems specially designed for the ring and does well when you have lots of room to do it) But, think carefully and question if these techniques can be used in a real situation.
Just your preference in training, depending on what your training for. I'm always in a mindset of realistic self-defense and am not interested in sport fighting. But, that is me. And my opinions on practical technique IS heavilly biased due to my critical anyalyzing of technique that I see won't work in these situations.
So, how is BJJ going to help your WC/WT in this light?
I hope this clarifies more of the mindset I am coming from, and why I get so "passionate" about self-defense and BJJ.

 

[arnisador]

I hope no one is discounting BJJ without having tried going against it...remember, before the UFC, the 'Gracie Challenge' changed a lot of people's minds.

 

[Si-Je]

I hope no one is discounting BJJ without having tried going against it...remember, before the UFC, the 'Gracie Challenge' changed a lot of people's minds.

I understand why you would recomend this, and I and our students have trained with and against BJJ. The "gracie challenge" is still on and this convinces alot of people that their the top dogs. But, not everyone can afford to travel out to California and put themselves up in a hotel and bebop on over to the school to challenge. So, this challenge doesn't cover all folks who have the skill. And is pretty misleading in it's very nature.
Heck, we sure could use the $10,000 he says he'll offer to a "victor". lol!
But, there's just too much cost involved in coming over there and playing around with it.
Besides, it wouldn't change peoples minds.

 

[dungeonworks]

I hope no one is discounting BJJ without having tried going against it...remember, before the UFC, the 'Gracie Challenge' changed a lot of people's minds.

Thank you. They've documented footage against several styles in mats, tile floors, rings, cages, MMA with gloves, vale tudo and No-Holds-Barred without gloves, and beaches among others. Most of their footage is agains far larger opponents and they beat them with efficient technique. Been doing it for around 100 years. It is more than any other practitioner can say about and back up their style. That's the reason people wanted to learn it. It is verified, tried, and true. There is a sport side of BJJ and a self defense side.

Now before I say this, let me state that Wing Chun is ridiculously disadvantaged in a sport setting as the rules take away many bread & butter attacks (fingers to eyes and throat, elbows to back of neck)/target areas (throat, eyes, back of neck..ect) and reduce it from a hearty stew to a broth so to speak. BJJ is not and can be sportorized by simply removing striking. That being said, 98% of the Wing Chun fight footage I have seen is them getting killed by Kyokushin, Muay Thai, MMA (a good amount anyways), and the ocasional ridiculous challenge match (not to leave out the almighty clash of the masters, Boztepe vs Chueng)....just YouTube it or use your favorite P2P software and search for them.

 

[dungeonworks]

I understand why you would recomend this, and I and our students have trained with and against BJJ. The "gracie challenge" is still on and this convinces alot of people that their the top dogs. But, not everyone can afford to travel out to California and put themselves up in a hotel and bebop on over to the school to challenge. So, this challenge doesn't cover all folks who have the skill. And is pretty misleading in it's very nature.
Heck, we sure could use the $10,000 he says he'll offer to a "victor". lol!
But, there's just too much cost involved in coming over there and playing around with it.
Besides, it wouldn't change peoples minds.

Oh my GOD you are REALLY grasping for straws on this! Put it on a credit card. You are going to win anyways right??? Besides, it is open at any Gracie family owned and ran gym from what I understand, not exclusive to the Torrance. CA academy.

 

[jarrod]

another thing that often gets overlooked is that virtually all martial arts are the product of cross-training, wing chun & jujitsu included. to cross-train isn't to betray your base art, but to allow the natural evolution of martial arts to continue. a martial art should never be "done" because it should always be exposed to new & different approaches. there's nothing anti-traditional about this, it is the way martial arts have always been. two people who fight different ways are going to swap tricks, & each come away with something new to them. so what?

jf

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Si-Je doesn't seem to have a problem with Sambo or Judo...But she has a problem with BJJ...she dislikes BJJ with a passion...Although you were able to tap guys 200-300lbs...you may have increase in strength from the training...just because some guys weigh more or have more muscle doesn't mean they the same strength as you. I have seen little bitty guys out bench huge heman guys...Sometimes the bigger guys have more bulk than they do overall strenght and stamina...This may be a kung you develop from your practice...each of us differnet...Some of us learn or pick up certain aspects faster than others. My Sidai and I when we started practicing Wing Chun we grew in different areas quicker. I grew first in speed and movement and he grew first in strength and size!

So Each of us is different. It may be your a natural at BJJ and your strength is nourish by practicing due to the way your Chi circurulates.

one of the things i disagree with si-je about is that jujitsu secretly relies on strength. when i started grappling i was 150lbs, & with a little practice i was able to tap guys 200-300lbs. so i know that with proper technique jujitsu can overcome strength. i don't train bjj, & i have my criticisms of it, but i have trained with enough bjj guys that i respect it. virtually every mma champion out there has some training in bjj, even if it's not their primary style. fedor doesn't, but he is excellent at sambo & judo, which is still grappling.

jf

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Please share what are the basic principals of BJJ?

Firstly, to answer the whole 'BJJ hasn't been doing so well in the cage lately' comment by Sije - When fighters fight in the cage, they come from one end of the cage to the other and meet in the middle, meaning that the striker has the first move (ie unless the BJJ guy runs in and goes for a takedown, he will have to receive shots from the striker)

You will find that most MMA guys use BJJ, just like most MMA guys also use striking. Hence why it is called MMA...

Going back to the original thread, it is not essential that chunners learn BJJ, but it is extremely important that they learn some kind of ground game

In Kamon, although BJJ is encouraged, Master Chan would be just as happy to see his senior students proficient in catch wrestling or sambo etc

You cannot live your wing chun lives with the motto 'I will never go to ground'. In most cases it is extremely difficult for a chunner to get taken down, but think of situations where a person pushes you back over a car bonnet, a table in a pub, or when you trip over or get another person tackling you from behind

If people are so adamant and blind to say they will NEVER get taken down, then I don't really have time for intelligent conversation with them

BJJ is a good match in wing chun because it is more about sticking and trapping your opponent than most grappling styles. It also doesn't worry too much about strength. Obviously it is always better to have a bit of strength, but because BJJ works using leverage and angles, it is a very good fit with Wing Chun

Remember that you really only need the basic principles of BJJ. I am definately no master, but if I get taken down, I know basic positions that will greatly increase my chances of safety. Generally you always want to get back to the position you started from (standing up), so I don't work too much on things like arm bars or locks because they are more for sport

 

[Flying Crane]

Wing Chun/Tsun + Brazillian Jiujitsu = what? and for what purpose?

CAN they work together as complementary and supportive methodologies? Of course.

MUST you combine them in order to be effective? Of course not.

Either art by itself, if properly trainined and understood, should give you the skills to handle yourself in most problems that the average person is likely to run into on the street.

They do not have equal strengths in a sporting context, however. I believe that BJJ probably has the advantage in that arena. If you want to compete in that arena, you might do well to get acquainted with it.

If you have no interest in a combative sporting context, then you certainly don't need to mix it with your wing chun. But you can, if you choose, and I am sure you would get benefits from doing so.

But I wouldn't automatically discount a serious Wing Chun guy just because he hasn't trained in BJJ, at least not in a self defense situation.

and again, a lot of this depends on the individual, and for what purpose he/she trains.

So mixing them could be good, or it could be crap, or it could mean nothing. And there are good reasons to do it, and there are good reasons to not do it.