Wing Chun Misconceptions

[KamonGuy2]

For the several people who have replied saying that wing chun is a complete art, can I ask what you do when you go to the ground?

 

[WC_lun]

The concepts used in Wing Chun are equally valid on the ground. Concepts such as space, timing, structure, fajing, center line, que sau, etc. Just because you go to the ground does not make those things invalid. Now having said that, if you don't ever do ground work you won't know how to apply the concepts in that setting. The concepts of Wing Chun are indeed those of a complete art... though most people do not train completely.

 

[KamonGuy2]

The concepts used in Wing Chun are equally valid on the ground. Concepts such as space, timing, structure, fajing, center line, que sau, etc. Just because you go to the ground does not make those things invalid. Now having said that, if you don't ever do ground work you won't know how to apply the concepts in that setting. The concepts of Wing Chun are indeed those of a complete art... though most people do not train completely.

And yet I have NEVER seen a wing chunner apply wing chun on the ground (successfully). The only person to have come clsoe was Emin Boztepe, but even he has admitted that it isnt really wing chun he uses whilst on the ground

I would disagree with your assertion that going to ground does not maek the concepts of wing chun less valid. You can certainly use some concepts of wing chun whilst on the ground (sensitivity, etc), but going to ground changes the whole position of a person and does not allow that person (on the floor) to rotate their base and use their hips in the same way they would if they were standing. It is like arguing a boxer would have no problem on the ground because he can still punch, but this isnt correct. His leverage and movement has gone out of the window (as demonstrated in numerous UFC events)

This is where I get frustrated with people who insist that wing chun is a complete system, and then go onto say that if you dont know how to deal with an individual on the ground, you obviously havent trained wing chun long enough etc. Masters such as Alan Orr and Kevin Chan are extremely talented wing chunners and yet they decided to train other arts to perfect their ground game. Why do you think that is? If wing chun truly had a ground game, dont you think they would have just learnt that instead?

I have still yet to see any evidence of wing chun working on the ground, and I have been to some of the best practitioners in the world

 

[Vajramusti]

We operate from different data bases of what we have seen or not seen.
Commonly we depend a lot on what he have seen in videos or the net and some stuff restricted to our locations or travel.

IMO and frankly, not enough people have good wing chun structure and experience in using wing chun.
IMO when one learns to train the body in the wing chun way enough and with detailed knowledge of the forms and the related drills and applications you can save yourself on the ground enough to get back up and not play the wrestlers game. Dabbling in the wrestler's game will only get you into deeper trouble against a good grappler.

I have experimented with wing chun against decent boxers and grapplers. judokas and akidoists and so have some of my better students and my best sihings.I have had a wrestling classmate of early UFC's The Beast-Severn- and a school coach wrestling coach visit my class. My nephew was number one seeded high school heavyweight wrestler in Oklahoma till he came back to Arizona and one of my best wing chun students is an All American in Greco Roman. I have had zero coaching in competitive wrestling.If you feel the need for learning grappling, I have no problem..I hope that what you learn in wrestling lessons can match an experienced grappler whose game is wrestling.

A common problem on the net is that of generalizing about all of wing chun
based on what one has seen.

joy chaudhuri.

 

[geezer]

...This is where I get frustrated with people who...

Don't let it get to you, Kamon. I hear what you ar saying. Just remember that this is the internet and we sometimes talk past each other. For example, I see a lot in common at the conceptual level between WC and grappling. You, an experienced grappler, see less. Well which concepts are we talking about and how much is "a lot"? It's just semantics. I don't believe WC is "complete". Nothing is. For example, my older brother is a nationally ranked long-range marksman. He competes with a high calibre rifle with open sights ant 1,000 yards. Try chain punching, ...or grappling that! But get him in an alley way or phone booth and it's pretty hard for him to get a bead on you. Well you get my point.

 

[yak sao]

If you are looking at it from a sport perspective, then no, WC is not complete.
But in a self defense situation where you have a matter of seconds to dispatch your attacker, then I think it's second to none.
Rather than cherry pick elements from different styles, I am a strong believer in getting the most out of my WC. No, I'll never be the grappler a BJJ man is. My long pole or knives may never reach the level of a FMAist, and I'll never be able to go 10 rounds in the ring with a golden gloves boxer. But I know my WC is competant and will get me out of more than a few scrapes I may encounter.
The idea of training a little BJJ and then trying to use it against a BJJ stylist who may be an expert grappler sounds a little absurd to me. I'm better off sticking to my guns, and if I do end up on the ground, then fight to get back up from there instead of wallowing around pretending to be something I'm not.
And yes, we do train on the ground in our WC...it would be foolish to ignore.

 

[Vajramusti]

And yes, we do train on the ground in our WC...it would be foolish to ignore.

----------------------------------------------------------------------Yes we also train on the ground from time to time-with wing chun-it can be done
but we spend a heck of a lot more time in devloping the wing chun upright and structurally sound dynamics and minimize the chance of being on the ground.

joy chaudhuri

 

[Nabakatsu]

I can't claim to be knowledgeable about grappling.
What I can claim is to have practiced The EBMAS ground game material to some extent. I fully intend on testing some of it out on a jj/bjj practitioner eventually. I've only drilled so many of the things we do enough to really have any hope of using them, But I feel a lot more comfortable knowing them than not. We apply yap gerk, bong gerk, as well as most of the hand structures, depending on the range of grappling we have a decent enough array of things with which to work with. It'll probably be a few years before I really get to train this to the level I feel comfortable doing some free sparring on video to show some of the concepts and applications we have. But I will do just that within a few years. Until than!

 

[yak sao]

----------------------------------------------------------------------Yes we also train on the ground from time to time-with wing chun-it can be done
but we spend a heck of a lot more time in devloping the wing chun upright and structurally sound dynamics and minimize the chance of being on the ground.

joy chaudhuri

Roger that!

 

[KamonGuy2]

The sad thing is that a lot of fights do end up on the ground or in a position similar to it (pressed up against a car/table etc), especially if a person is caught off guard

Vajramusti, not that I am calling you a liar, but I am highly sceptical that you held your own on the floor against a talented wrestler or BJJ practitioner

Even the best wing chunners out there (including Wan Kam Leung) admit that it is important to be familiar with other concepts and arts in order to enhance your martial skill

The point is, that wing chun comes very close to being a complete system, but has a big gap in the ground game

I would love to see videos of wing chun practitioners effectively using wing chun on the ground - certainly it would silence the critics on other forums

 

[dungeonworks]

The sad thing is that a lot of fights do end up on the ground or in a position similar to it (pressed up against a car/table etc), especially if a person is caught off guard

Vajramusti, not that I am calling you a liar, but I am highly sceptical that you held your own on the floor against a talented wrestler or BJJ practitioner

Even the best wing chunners out there (including Wan Kam Leung) admit that it is important to be familiar with other concepts and arts in order to enhance your martial skill

The point is, that wing chun comes very close to being a complete system, but has a big gap in the ground game

I would love to see videos of wing chun practitioners effectively using wing chun on the ground - certainly it would silence the critics on other forums

Me too. Not any DEMOS, but actual rolling or fighting footage would be great.

 

[mook jong man]

Of course it would be absolutely stupid to play the grapplers game when ending up on the ground .

While I'm going for a figure four arm lock or a choke , the blokes girlfriend is driving a broken beer bottle into the back of my neck.

These techniques are just too slow to be of any use in a self defence situation where there is the chance of more than one attacker.

Which is why I prefer to call what I do "Ground fighting" rather than grappling , there is a big difference in my opinion.

In ground fighting I am looking for striking opportunities where ever possible , as well as gouging , pinching , biting , ripping off ears etc.
These things can also be done to you so you must stay aware of that.

Basically I am doing what ever it takes to get me up in a standing position unencumbered and mobile , ready to deal with the threat from the attackers associates.

Grappling sort of implies that both parties are quite prepared for a long drawn out battle until one defeats the other by way of a submission.

Having said that , some things from Wing Chun will work on the ground some wont , or not without modification.

For example if we are flat on our back and we are mounted and the attacker grabs both wrists , our arms must take the full weight of the man .

Ordinarily if the force became too much we would pivot , to both relieve the pressure and place him in a position of disadvantage.
But in this situation we are flat on our back and have no room to do a conventional Wing Chun pivot .

But what we can do is place our arms in the Lan Sau position and use the bridge and roll technique from the grappling arts to roll him off the top of us and finish him with elbows and chain punching.

So now our bridge and roll has become our pivot , not exactly the same as Wing Chun pivot but it gets the job done.

This is just taking a few reversal techniques and control positions of the grappling arts and tweaking them with some Wing Chun , to me its not sacrilegious it just makes good sense.

You can also have the person in your guard (trapped between your legs ) with your hips up and body straight so they can't strike you , and at opportune times drag them in with your legs for a quick flurry of chain punches , then unlock your legs and kick them off you with multiple stamp kicks to the head and body or grab one of their arms and do a scissor leg sweep so that you end up on top of them.

The mount , bridge and roll , side control , sweeps etc
The point is these are tried and true techniques of the grappling arts , and to have an awareness of and working knowledge of these control positions does not mean you are playing into the grapplers game.

It just means that by using these control positions I can avoid common pitfalls and bring my striking to bear from a stronger position rather than flopping around on the ground like a fish out of water .

All I am doing is taking these elements and infusing them with Wing Chun so that they better fit the needs of self defence.

 

[Vajramusti]

Vajramusti, not that I am calling you a liar, but I am highly sceptical that you held your own on the floor against a talented wrestler or BJJ practitioner
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It's ok- you can believe what you will.I don't play the wrestler's game or the bjj game-I play mine.

joy chaudhuri

 

[KamonGuy2]

Vajramusti, not that I am calling you a liar, but I am highly sceptical that you held your own on the floor against a talented wrestler or BJJ practitioner
---------------------------------------------------------------------
It's ok- you can believe what you will.I don't play the wrestler's game or the bjj game-I play mine.

joy chaudhuri

Im not saying that you do. Im merely asking for you to back up your claims of going up against talented wrestlers and/or BJJ guys

Fighting against a BJJ guy from a standing position is a lot diferent to starting from the ground (where you will often end up in a real situation) and working your way out of it. I can keep my feet very well against most martial artists, but I concede that there will be times where I am knocked over, pushed over, pulled to the ground, pushed over an object (hood of a car etc).

I am not saying that you should only practice BJJ, I am merely pointing out that trying to utilize wing chun techniques from a ground position is like trying to hammer a nail into a piece of wood using a feather duster. I am sure there are people who can use elements of wing chun to help with ground defence etc, but using just wing chun is not enough, or to put it another way, the ‘long way round the problem’

Certainly you should never get into a grapple on the floor. When I train BJJ, I utilize what is useful in street defence (ie Im not going to try and triangle choke an attacker in the middle of a nightclub if I was attacked)

BJJ has very fast and useful techniques for recovering your feet, getting better positions on your opponent and generally saves you from dangerous pins

 

[MJS]

And yet I have NEVER seen a wing chunner apply wing chun on the ground (successfully). The only person to have come clsoe was Emin Boztepe, but even he has admitted that it isnt really wing chun he uses whilst on the ground

I would disagree with your assertion that going to ground does not maek the concepts of wing chun less valid. You can certainly use some concepts of wing chun whilst on the ground (sensitivity, etc), but going to ground changes the whole position of a person and does not allow that person (on the floor) to rotate their base and use their hips in the same way they would if they were standing. It is like arguing a boxer would have no problem on the ground because he can still punch, but this isnt correct. His leverage and movement has gone out of the window (as demonstrated in numerous UFC events)

This is where I get frustrated with people who insist that wing chun is a complete system, and then go onto say that if you dont know how to deal with an individual on the ground, you obviously havent trained wing chun long enough etc. Masters such as Alan Orr and Kevin Chan are extremely talented wing chunners and yet they decided to train other arts to perfect their ground game. Why do you think that is? If wing chun truly had a ground game, dont you think they would have just learnt that instead?

I have still yet to see any evidence of wing chun working on the ground, and I have been to some of the best practitioners in the world

I dont do WC, however, I have had this same discussion countless times with fellow Kenpoists, who insist that Kenpo can be done on the ground. Yes, just like certain WC things, certain Kenpo things can be done, but as you said, the ground will change things.

Another member mentioned playing the grapplers game. Id like to comment on that. Yes, I've heard this before from Kenpo people. I've talked alot about the ground and will repeat what I've said....I dont encourage or advocate playing their game. If I end up there, no, I'm not going to intentionally look for an armlock, leg lock, etc., and turn it into a 30min UFC match. However, I do advocate that people should have some basic ground knowledge. Enough to escape/survive, long enough to get back to my feet. IMO, nothing in Kenpo is going to help me with that, thus the reason why I train on the ground with BJJ.

Now, if an arm presented itself to me, and I could go for some lock and/or break, if it meant me surviving, yeah, sure I'll take it, but to prolong my stay on the ground for the sole sake of an armlock....thats crazy, IMO.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I have little experience in Wing Chun, I have trained briefly with 2 different Sifus, one a student of Ip Ching the other a student of Augustine Fong and I saw something in the Augustine Fong lineage that would not likely be called ground fighting but it would make it damn hard to take things to the ground if the Wing Chun practitioner went down first. It was a kicking from the ground.

Now before this is called silly and worthless I will say I once sparred a Southern Mantis practitioner (who beat the heck out of me) that was trained this way and you are hard pressed to get close to him if he falls. The flurry of surprisingly powerful kicks and punches that come at you from the ground gives you few options, stand there a block all day, dive in and take a beating or backup and then he pops up like a weeble and continues with the pummeling. I tried 1 and 3

Yes a fight can go to the ground, I have been in a few, but not all and I do not believe anywhere near as many as the hard to nail down statistics on the topic says.

But to be honest the fights I was in that went to the ground I took there for purposes of Qinna and restraint and there was no actual fighting once it got the ground. IMO, in that job (hospital security - with mental health and detox units) the ground was a great place to be since I could control it with body weight and qinna and not get sued for throwing punches and kicks.

As to Wing Chun being Complete… it is as complete as Wing Chun is supposed to be.

And you should not forget you have to get in close for ground work and if the Wing Chun person is a good fighter… expect to get hit… a lot... and hard trying to get there.

 

[hunt1]

I'll direct this at kamon Guy because Sam Kwok was the first person to tell me to start teaching so I know we have some things in common.

First I think folks should learn ground fighting from a someone that really knows the stuff if they want to be well rounded. This leaves out most wing chun teachers me included. Besides with the job BJJ and other submission grappling forms like Sambo and catch have done why reinvent the wheel.

However the Wing Chun concepts and mechanics I learned and teach are completely consistent with grappling and there fore lend themselves to use on the ground.

Now for a true story, I have always told my students that to really learn WC you must go out and find non wing chun folks to spar and train with. 8 or so years ago a student of mine had a chance to try his wing chun at the Militich school. certainly at the time one of the top MMA/grappling schools in the world.

After telling him that they had never seen any WC person that could make it in the cage they told him they didn't want him to get hurt with striking so first he had to try just grappling with out any striking at all. He agreed.

Here's the thing he had never wrestled or grappled a day in his life other than for about 3 or 4 hours in class when I had taught him how to be comfortable on the ground with wing chun. He faced 5 different people . The first 4 could not take him down at all. The last was an NCAA div 1 champ finalist. He took him down but could not submit him during the time allowed.

Afterwords when he and the wrestler talked the wrestler was surprised to learn that they both shared the same understanding and use of the body. Use of hips spine and chest.
There lies both the secret and the problem with those that try to use wing chun from the ground. Most folks haven't been taught how to use the hips spine chest shoulders. I know the complete usage is not taught by Sam or the Ip brothers or at least it wasn't up to the last time i saw Sam 8 years ago. Also there are several methods of chi sao training that help train grappling skills that are also not widely practiced. For example in addition to the common luksau/poon sau platform. I also teach several other forms of chi sau such as Huen sau, Noi Lim /Oi Lim, elbow/shoulder and 2 other types.
While these other forms were designed to teach the standing grappling aspects of wing chun the skills are used the same standing or lying on your back etc.

My point being that if you have the full body mechanics and have the full set of standing skills including chest to chest then you can make the transition to ground fighting with wing chun. However again I will say to be truly competent on the ground you should train with groundd fighters not wing chun folks that dabble.

 

[dungeonworks]

Of course it would be absolutely stupid to play the grapplers game when ending up on the ground .

While I'm going for a figure four arm lock or a choke , the blokes girlfriend is driving a broken beer bottle into the back of my neck.

These techniques are just too slow to be of any use in a self defence situation where there is the chance of more than one attacker.

Which is why I prefer to call what I do "Ground fighting" rather than grappling , there is a big difference in my opinion.

In ground fighting I am looking for striking opportunities where ever possible , as well as gouging , pinching , biting , ripping off ears etc.
These things can also be done to you so you must stay aware of that.

Basically I am doing what ever it takes to get me up in a standing position unencumbered and mobile , ready to deal with the threat from the attackers associates.

Grappling sort of implies that both parties are quite prepared for a long drawn out battle until one defeats the other by way of a submission.

Having said that , some things from Wing Chun will work on the ground some wont , or not without modification.

For example if we are flat on our back and we are mounted and the attacker grabs both wrists , our arms must take the full weight of the man .

Ordinarily if the force became too much we would pivot , to both relieve the pressure and place him in a position of disadvantage.
But in this situation we are flat on our back and have no room to do a conventional Wing Chun pivot .

But what we can do is place our arms in the Lan Sau position and use the bridge and roll technique from the grappling arts to roll him off the top of us and finish him with elbows and chain punching.

So now our bridge and roll has become our pivot , not exactly the same as Wing Chun pivot but it gets the job done.

This is just taking a few reversal techniques and control positions of the grappling arts and tweaking them with some Wing Chun , to me its not sacrilegious it just makes good sense.

You can also have the person in your guard (trapped between your legs ) with your hips up and body straight so they can't strike you , and at opportune times drag them in with your legs for a quick flurry of chain punches , then unlock your legs and kick them off you with multiple stamp kicks to the head and body or grab one of their arms and do a scissor leg sweep so that you end up on top of them.

The mount , bridge and roll , side control , sweeps etc
The point is these are tried and true techniques of the grappling arts , and to have an awareness of and working knowledge of these control positions does not mean you are playing into the grapplers game.

It just means that by using these control positions I can avoid common pitfalls and bring my striking to bear from a stronger position rather than flopping around on the ground like a fish out of water .

All I am doing is taking these elements and infusing them with Wing Chun so that they better fit the needs of self defence.

....and that my friend is what I have been saying here for a long time now but is somehow insulting to some. It is essential to know what someone is likely to use on you or where they want to be to stage their attack on and from the ground you you can drill your sensitivity from these position and make your Wing Chun automatic on the ground as well. Good post MJM.

Great way to put it.

 

[dungeonworks]

I dont do WC, however, I have had this same discussion countless times with fellow Kenpoists, who insist that Kenpo can be done on the ground. Yes, just like certain WC things, certain Kenpo things can be done, but as you said, the ground will change things.

Another member mentioned playing the grapplers game. Id like to comment on that. Yes, I've heard this before from Kenpo people. I've talked alot about the ground and will repeat what I've said....I dont encourage or advocate playing their game. If I end up there, no, I'm not going to intentionally look for an armlock, leg lock, etc., and turn it into a 30min UFC match. However, I do advocate that people should have some basic ground knowledge. Enough to escape/survive, long enough to get back to my feet. IMO, nothing in Kenpo is going to help me with that, thus the reason why I train on the ground with BJJ.

Now, if an arm presented itself to me, and I could go for some lock and/or break, if it meant me surviving, yeah, sure I'll take it, but to prolong my stay on the ground for the sole sake of an armlock....thats crazy, IMO.

Hey MJS, if an armbar or lock of ANY TYPE presents itself on the street, I would take it....and turn it into a BREAK!

Ignoring the ground game completely brings one back twenty years in their training....to the days of the one punch kill mentality that was prevalent in Karate, TKD, TSD....and maybe other stand up arts. I too like the ground training for escapes, positional dominance, and stand up skills. Going for submissions is fun too and GREAT EXERCISE. It is a fun and physically challenging game of "Man Chess"! LOL

 

[mook jong man]

Hey MJS, if an armbar or lock of ANY TYPE presents itself on the street, I would take it....and turn it into a BREAK!

Ignoring the ground game completely brings one back twenty years in their training....to the days of the one punch kill mentality that was prevalent in Karate, TKD, TSD....and maybe other stand up arts. I too like the ground training for escapes, positional dominance, and stand up skills. Going for submissions is fun too and GREAT EXERCISE. It is a fun and physically challenging game of "Man Chess"! LOL

Yeah it is great fun and very demanding energy wise which is another reason you don't want to be down there too long , it just takes too damn much out of you.

A couple of other things I like to do to raise the level of desperation and get out of the comfort zone is where.

• One person has to escape a nominated bad position and be up on their feet in a certain time frame before the timer goes off.
• Grappling where one person has a knife , starting off sitting back to back.
• Grappling where one person has a stick , starting off sitting back to back.
• Starting the fight from a very bad position like flat on your belly , or from a RNC.
• Practicing keeping your feet in the hips and using your shin and hip movement as they try to pass your guard and hit you.

Survival mode - Where the one mounted has head gear on , and the other has boxing gloves on. We start from the premise that we haven't been able to off balance the opponent or make him post.

So he starts raining punches down upon us , we must " weather the storm so to speak " as we come up with an appropriate cover bury our head and grab his waist and slam him down into the floor. From where we can apply some things without being as vulnerable to the strikes.

As we are coming up for the waist grab we like to use a thing called the " Universal Shield " that I learned from my knife instructor Mr Ray Floro (thanks Ray).

Its very similar to a Lan Sau but one arm is horizontal and the other is braced behind it diagonally with the shoulders shrugged and chin tucked down .

Its strong structurally and gives a great level of protection all around the head . We usually use it for knife defence work but it all so works fantastically well against unarmed strikes too.

We don't do this stuff as often as we should because my guys do love their Wing Chun , but when we do it we really get into it and go hard.