Wing Chun Misconceptions

[Xue Sheng]

I have posted these here before in other threads but it goes to show that true MMA tend to be open to any MA or any training that will help them win.

One was an MMA person I talked to that was competing and he had trained many many MA styles including TKD, Karate, Boxing, Baguazhang, Judo, Aikido, BJJ, Qigong and he was asking me a lot about taijiquan. Basically he was looking to learn anything that would help him win.

Another Taijiquan person I knew went to train MMA and he said it was a blast he was learning how to better deal with hardcore aggressive attacks and improving his root and the MMA people at the gym were learning how to deal with someone that had a strong root. At first he said the aggressive nature of it threw him but once he got use to it he just depended on his Taiji and his root and the MMA people were then having a real hard time dealing with someone with a strong root. All in all it was a win win for both sides.

Point being that we are better off learning from other styles and other MAist than we are berating them

Personally I have always felt if you want to be a well rounded MAist that a combination of Judo and Wing Chun would be a good mix… but then so would a combination of Muay Thai and BJJ or Aikido and Karate or Shuaijiao and Long Fist…. Or any other combination of various MA styles. Or you could train any one of them individually all are good a fighting if trained properly

 

[mograph]

Point being that we are better off learning from other styles and other MAist than we are berating them.

This learning (and not berating) is a goal of the MartialTalk community, no?

 

[geezer]

This learning (and not berating) is a goal of the MartialTalk community, no?

Exactly why it (along with FMATalk) is about the only martial arts forum I bother with anymore.

 

[shaolin_al]

This thread has become very entertaining. Haha.

 

[zepedawingchun]

Just an FYI, coffeerox will no longer be able to reply to any messages here.

However, please do not let that stop this thread, as it seems to be going well.

Is that for just this thread, or for the whole forum?

 

[zepedawingchun]

Oh sure NOW you tell me :uhyeah:

Now we don't have to hold you back because we were affraid you might hurt the guy.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Is that for just this thread, or for the whole forum?

Entire Forum. His membership has been revoked after extensive consideration by the steering board.

 

[BloodMoney]

Point being that we are better off learning from other styles and other MAist than we are berating them

Personally I have always felt if you want to be a well rounded MAist that a combination of Judo and Wing Chun would be a good mix… but then so would a combination of Muay Thai and BJJ or Aikido and Karate or Shuaijiao and Long Fist…. Or any other combination of various MA styles. Or you could train any one of them individually all are good a fighting if trained properly

Amen brother.

Entire Forum. His membership has been revoked after extensive consideration by the steering board.

*applauds*

thankyouverymuch

 

[zepedawingchun]

Entire Forum. His membership has been revoked after extensive consideration by the steering board.

Quotes from the 'New to Wing Chun' thread,

Matsu said: 'and i know you are an expert in reading people via the worldwide web and that you are probably gonna hunt me down across continents and oceans and put me to sleep permanantly with some ninja technique you hae perfected while levitating in an astral plane not of this dimension ........'

Coffeerox said: 'I can actually do that lol! One time this guy was getting bad with me following me to other threads and I demonstrated that I found his mom, his real name, and phone number and threatened to call his mom due to his behavior, I even found the place he hangs out at, plus what he looks like. Have you seen what the 4chan guys do to people? Those guys are crazy and they're 10 times better at it than I am.'


I guess we all have to start looking over our shoulder now for awhile because someone might hunt us down, call our moms, find the places we hangout (other than this forum), because 4 crazy guys were told they were 10 times better than us and they needed to kick our asses for some guy who thinks coffee rocks (or like rocks in his coffee).


That was funny matsu, you had me rolling all over the floor, laughing, when you wrote that. Best line in the whole thread.

 

[zepedawingchun]

Quote from 'New to Wing Chun' thread.

Coffeerox: 'The only person here who have seen my SNT is geezer, so PM him and ask him what he thought of it as I can't post a video. He did make some corrections, feed me some new info and I still practice it to this day.'

Geezer, since he said to ask, I'm asking. What did his SNT look like? Did you have a lot of stuff to correct? Did he seem like he was getting it right after you fixed his problems? Also, what about is execution of the various hand positions, did he illustrate any of them to you for your opinion and correction?

You don't have to discuss it if you don't want to, just curious.

 

[Nabakatsu]

Not that it's ANY of MY business, but perhaps we should just let this blow over, as fun as it was to get some of our blood going a bit, it seems unnecessary to continue feeding into what has come to pass. I'm sure in part the fellow was just a bit understood. Although I wouldn't go so far as calling him a sweet little teddybear..
Anyways.. sort of on topic.. the biggest misconception I hear about wing chun is people thinking it's wang chun like the song..

 

[KamonGuy2]

Im sure he will be back....

But anyway, the classic misconception for WC is thinking it is a toilet (according to Leung Ting)....

 

[WC_lun]

The concepts of Wing Chun can be used in MMA effectively. My instructor and two of my classmates have training in MMA. Another classmate operates a JJ and Judo school. There are several people with other martial arts backgrounds to a pretty high level. This is pretty convenient as it means we get to test our Wing Chun against all different types of people and systems.

It does take a while to become proficient at Wing Chun enough to use it against other high level martial artist in a sporting enviroment. That means a lot of time training it. Most guys I know that do MMA prefer to pick up MT or western boxing instead because the basics are quicker to learn and they have already been proven in a sporting enviroment.

There is a difference between self defense and a sporting match. MMA is a sporting match with rules and a certain mind set. Self defense has no rules and it is far more chaotic. However, too many guys think that because MMA is trained with rules and pretty simplistic stand up, it isn't dangerous on the street. It is, if nothing else because they train with resisting opponents, applying thier technique %100. It is good to know there is a difference between sporting and real street fighting. Using that knowledge as an excuse is not helpful in the least if someone using sporting techniques manhandles you on the street. I'm not saying anyone here is guilty of this fantasy, but I have seen it a lot.

 

[Vajramusti]

People think MMA fighters are the 'top dog' in martial arts. They aren't. They train fog competition, which has rules, limits and referees. Wing Chun doesn't train you to win a belt or trophy, but a life-or-death fight. Self defense != sport competition, a fact often missed sadly.

-----------------------------------------
A good statement Bob.
In some ways wing chun is also a high tech art-mastering the details takes time and good direction and correct practice and experience.
Wing chun develops the reflexes in every direction.
I don't have to mix other things with my wing chun. It does not hurt to see what other systems do- but it is best to play a wing chun game with others- when the wing chun is properly developed.

joy chaudhuri

 

[KamonGuy2]

I think there is a danger that wing chunners get arrogant about their art (and usually why we get a bad rep on other forums)

Wing chun is not complete, in the same way that many other arts arent complete. A complete martial art would have strategies and techniques in ALL areas of fighting. Wing chun doesnt

Certainly a good wing chun practitioner will be a hard opponent, especially in a street scenario. Yet, there are still times where chunners will struggle

It is extremely important to utilize skills from other arts to make you a complete martial artist. It is not betraying wing chun to look outside the box. If a boxer came up to me and said that his art was a complete system, I would give him the same answer

It is great to have tradition and build a foundation art, whether it be karate, tai chi, aikido etc. Yet, to be a good fighter, you need to have an overall good game

The answers most chunners give when faced with the ground game scenario is 'Id never get taken to the ground'. This isnt good enough. Especially when you consider classic examples such as Boztepe vs Cheung, or when you see extremely good martial artists get unwillingly taken to the ground in UFC or Bushido etc

Some chunners need to dip their toes in the pool and see whats out there.

 

[Vajramusti]

I think there is a danger that wing chunners get arrogant about their art (and usually why we get a bad rep on other forums)

Wing chun is not complete, in the same way that many other arts arent complete. A complete martial art would have strategies and techniques in ALL areas of fighting. Wing chun doesnt

--------------------------------------------------
A somewhat different view-without any personal antagonism. I am sure that I do wing chun differently from Kamon.FWIW-IMHO- wing chun is a complete art though not all wing chunners will be at the same level or similarly trained.
Wing chun does have a perspective on body structure and dynamics and emphasizes individual dvelopment based on a considerably extensive curriculum. If one understands wing chun body and hand STRUCTURE well and learns how to adapt it in different contexts .Of course while playing a wing chun strategic and tactical game one can and should try out ones wing chun against strikers and grapplers.
I am nota TWC person and have no comment on the Cheung-Boztepe thing
which was WT/TWC affair.Can't generalize for all based on that incident.
joy chaudhuri

 

[dungeonworks]

the concepts of wing chun can be used in mma effectively. My instructor and two of my classmates have training in mma. Another classmate operates a jj and judo school. There are several people with other martial arts backgrounds to a pretty high level. This is pretty convenient as it means we get to test our wing chun against all different types of people and systems.

It does take a while to become proficient at wing chun enough to use it against other high level martial artist in a sporting enviroment. That means a lot of time training it. Most guys i know that do mma prefer to pick up mt or western boxing instead because the basics are quicker to learn and they have already been proven in a sporting enviroment.

There is a difference between self defense and a sporting match. Mma is a sporting match with rules and a certain mind set. Self defense has no rules and it is far more chaotic. however, too many guys think that because mma is trained with rules and pretty simplistic stand up, it isn't dangerous on the street. It is, if nothing else because they train with resisting opponents, applying thier technique %100. it is good to know there is a difference between sporting and real street fighting. Using that knowledge as an excuse is not helpful in the least if someone using sporting techniques manhandles you on the street. I'm not saying anyone here is guilty of this fantasy, but i have seen it a lot.

finally someone other than myself that sees this point too!!!!

 

[Xue Sheng]

finally someone other than myself that sees this point too!!!!

Your not the only one

I have said this before

If I was given a choice between fighting Cung Le - Sports Sanshou

Or fighting my last Sanshou sifu - police Military Sanshou

I would choose running because my insurance does not cover acts of stupidity

 

[BloodMoney]

Wing chun is not complete, in the same way that many other arts arent complete. A complete martial art would have strategies and techniques in ALL areas of fighting.

I disagree with that. I think Chun is a complete system, in the same way that many other arts are complete. They are a system, an art, designed with a specific style or structure in mind. Go tell an Aikido guy hes system isnt complete lol, and your ground skills better be pretty amazing to get a senior Aikido practitioner to the ground thats for sure. So I find it hard to think of any well established art as incomplete to be honest. But at the same time I do agree with:

The answers most chunners give when faced with the ground game scenario is 'Id never get taken to the ground'. This isnt good enough.

Some chunners need to dip their toes in the pool and see whats out there.

Ive heard the tried and true "id never get taken to the ground" many times, and when I was younger I believed it. To be fair I have personally never been taken to the ground in a street fight, nor have I seen many end up there (despite many assurances by people that "every fight ends up on the ground"). However I do train in BJJ, because I dont just want to be good at takedown defense and striking, I want a good ground game. Does Chun have a good ground game? Not really. Its strength is close quarter standup. But that doesnt mean that because its weakness could be considered ground work that the art is incomplete, its just not a specialized ground art. Chi Sau and one inch power work great on the ground, but not as well as a dedicated grappling art like BJJ. And vice versa, just because BJJ doesnt have a whole bunch of strikes doesnt make it incomplete imo, it just means its a specialized ground art.

Agreed that Chunners should dip there toes, but I would say the same for BJJ'ers or Aikido practitioners etc. I personally train one weapon art, one standup art and one ground art, but that certainly doesnt mean any of them are incomplete and NEED the others, its just because I wanna be a machine and take the elements from each arts strengths.

 

[geezer]

I am nota TWC person and have no comment on the Cheung-Boztepe thing
which was WT/TWC affair.Can't generalize for all based on that incident.
joy chaudhuri

An interesting outcome of that well known fight from twenty-some-odd years ago was that Emin Boztepe continued to work and develop some very good techniques to deal with grapplers and to apply his "Wing Tzun" more efficiently and effectively on the ground. In other words, his ultimate concern wasn't how well he bested the other guy, but how to to improve from there.

Regarding "completeness", I don't think Wing Chun was ever intended to be all things to all people... in fact quite the opposite. It began as an attempt to eliminate the unnecessary and focus on doing a limited amount of things very very well. Still, as Joy has suggested, WC's concepts and structures can be applied to a wider range of circumstances than many of our critics realize.