Wing Chun entry techniques

[drop bear]

Wow, this vid is a great find. I have often wondered how the game would change if the rules allowed for eye pokes.
Surprisingly, his opponents don't seem to be too affected by this...of course John is not jabbing as hard as he could. He seems to be using it to create distance and/or antagonize rather than to set up an attack.
Lesson gleaned: If you're going to use Biu Jee to lead off a rain of punches you still need to strike harder than a mere flick.

There was a guy who was blinded by eyegoughing in an earlier pride ish fight and then went on to beat two other guys that day. Wearing an eye patch.
Not a normal guy though.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Yko1xLF7AQU

I don't know use it in combination with other stuff of course.

 

[Cephalopod]

Yeah, I've seen that one. Poor bastard. He took a big toenail to the eye, best as I could tell.

Back to the OP using an eye jab as an entry:

Considering how well John Jones' opponents handled actual eye strikes, I personally would not count on a mere flick in that general direction causing my adversary to dodge or flinch. Especially assuming said adversary is steamed enough that you find yourself compelled to attack him.

My reaction to something flying toward my face is to fill center, intercepting the incoming limb. This is a pretty universal WC reaction, I figure.
If your eye poke attack has not compromised your balance/structure then all is good, contact will be made and you can react accordingly. But if you've over-extended your shoulder or shifted your weight too far forward, as in 1:09 in the OP's vid, then that first contact will put you at a significant disadvantage and you may find yourself uprooted and spiraling to the left.
Thoughts?

 

[mook jong man]

We don't throw feints in our lineage , we consider it to be a wasted movement.

We use kicks to bridge the gap if they are in kicking range , if they are just outside of kicking range we use a charging knee , which is basically taking a step in like a skip and then raising the other leg with the knee on center.
It protects the groin and midsection against any kicks as you are coming in.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It's more logic to use your kick to enter the kicking range, and use your punch to enter the punching range.

 

[JPinAZ]

For me, it's more logical to not look at it as 'entering' at all. "You don't move, I don't move. But, when you move, I get there (the better position) first."

So, when it is time to move, instead of thinking about how to 'enter', just move fwd into the space, covering your gates (high/middle/low) with good structure on CL at the proper time/range. The rest ends up sorting itself out once a bridge is encountered/engaged. At that point, it's more about feet follow the hands/hands follow the feet, loi lau hoi sung, etc.

 

[drop bear]

For me, it's more logical to not look at it as 'entering' at all. "You don't move, I don't move. But, when you move, I get there (the better position) first."

So, when it is time to move, instead of thinking about how to 'enter', just move fwd into the space, covering your gates (high/middle/low) with good structure on CL at the proper time/range. The rest ends up sorting itself out once a bridge is encountered/engaged. At that point, it's more about feet follow the hands/hands follow the feet, loi lau hoi sung, etc.

What do you do against a range fighter. Who will keep moving out of your at as you are walking in?

 

[ST1Doppelganger]

What do you do against a range fighter. Who will keep moving out of your at as you are walking in?

Its impossible to say why you will do against a great outside fighter because if their martial skill is a higher level then yours then your going to get skilled. Of course when he makes first contact with you while striking you he is essentially creating the bridge that WC peeps seek.

The same goes against a grappler if the grappler has more martial skill then you do your going to get taken down and pummeled.

It all depends on the individual's skill set in my opinion and every style has their advantages and disadvantages.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

"You don't move, I don't move. But, when you move, I get there (the better position) first."

That's a valid strategy too. The only issue is if your opponent also uses this strategy, you wait for him and he waits for you, nothing will happen. In SD, it may be a good thing. In tournament, both you and your opponent will be disqualified. There was one tournament that during the final championship fight, both persons played this strategy - wait for the other person to make the 1st move. Both got disqualified. The 3rd place became the 1st place, and the 4th place became the 2nd place.

I prefer to attack and run my opponent down with my momentum instead.

 

[geezer]

That's a valid strategy too. The only issue is if your opponent also uses this strategy, you wait for him and he waits for you, nothing will happen. In SD, it may be a good thing. In tournament, both you and your opponent will be disqualified.

...I prefer to attack and run my opponent down with my momentum instead.

Personally, I agree with your preference. However, with respect to the part quoted above about SD vs tournaments, tournaments have never been a major thing in Wing Chun. So, the strategy of forcing your opponent to come toward you into "range" and then using an explosive forward step to intercept his attack remains a simple, practical and effective solution. Organizational politics aside, no one demonstrates it better than Emin IMO.

 

[mook jong man]

What do you do against a range fighter. Who will keep moving out of your at as you are walking in?

You can wait until he is just outside of kicking range and then burst in with a technique called charging knee , basically a big skipping step with the knee raised on center.
In one explosive movement you can cover up to 3 metres.

 

[futsaowingchun]

To not have a strategy in a fight better not fight..You must know your opponent and yourself if you plan to survive..

 

[yak sao]

To not have a strategy in a fight better not fight..You must know your opponent and yourself if you plan to survive..

Again, the difference between tournament competition and real life application. In a street situation how will you know your opponent? If this is the first time you've laid eyes on him how do you know what type of fighter he is? Is he a boxer, a kicker, a grappler?

I agree that you should have a strategy for the fight but don't confuse strategy with tactics. To say "if he does this, I will do this" is thinking on a tactical/technique level. It puts us at a disadvantage because we are letting our opponent dictate the terms of the fight.

If he is out of range and we can't reach him, great. He is out of range and can't reach us either. If I try to come in over too great a distance, he will see me coming way too easily. Plus if I attack him while he is there balanced, poised and ready, I am attacking a fortified position.

If I am at a distance where his first movement is an attack, I am too close to him. I should be at a distance where his first movement is the step in for the attack. When he steps toward me to set up his attack, that is when I explode in, occupying his space.

Not a technique, but a strategy......intercept the opponent.

 

[Cephalopod]

That's a valid strategy too. The only issue is if your opponent also uses this strategy, you wait for him and he waits for you, nothing will happen. In SD, it may be a good thing.

I think this is the key point. If neither party is actively agressing then there is a chance to de-escalate the conflict. Unless, of course, behind your opponent you see his accomplice dragging your daughter into a rusty white van with a Hello Kitty bumper sticker...

What I'm getting to is that I don't believe that charging your opponent is the forte of the WC skillset. When you charge you are intoducing momentum into the equation which can be used against you by an effective opponent. That being said, If I do have to close the gap (the van, the van, dear god THE VAN!!) I prefer to do it much the same way that I receive a charge: Mindful, relaxed, good peripheral awareness but kind of 'empty' when it comes to thinking of technique. A quick shuffling step with my hands filling center. Very likely my arms will be intercepted by his and then my WC training will do whatever it does.

I think that by planning an attack sequence I am more likely to run into brain freeze when the unexpected occurs.

 

[Cephalopod]

Personally, I agree with your preference. However, with respect to the part quoted above about SD vs tournaments, tournaments have never been a major thing in Wing Chun. So, the strategy of forcing your opponent to come toward you into "range" and then using an explosive forward step to intercept his attack remains a simple, practical and effective solution. Organizational politics aside, no one demonstrates it better than Emin IMO.

This is an excellent video.
Did you notice, however, that Emin's weight shifts forward to his toes before his partner initiates any movement into his kick. You can see this at 2:28 and even more so at 2:55. I'm not taking anything away from Emin (daunting powerhouse) or his technique (similar to what I would attempt under the same circumstances). I'm just smugly pointing out the obvious: This approach looks so clean in a demo when the kick is anticipated, but in reality I'm going to be eating part of that kick as I move into it. The good news is that if the kick does connect, it'll do so before full extension so I wont get the full power.

 

[geezer]

...I'm just smugly pointing out the obvious: This approach looks so clean in a demo when the kick is anticipated, but in reality I'm going to be eating part of that kick as I move into it. The good news is that if the kick does connect, it'll do so before full extension so I wont get the full power.

True. I will join you in smugly saying only demos can predictably look great. As you point out, real fighting is a lot messier!

 

[Cephalopod]

... real fighting is a lot messier!

For some reason my mind shot to a vid I saw recently, an aikido guy going toe-to-toe with some karate b-belts.
AIKIDO VERSUS SHOTOKAN KARATE - YouTube

Now I wouldn't know aikido if it squatted and took a dump in my garage, but right off the bat I give this guy kudos for putting himself out of his comfort zone and dealing with distance strikers (even if they did seem, ahem, a little feeble). But on youtube his video was universally trashed because his opponents were not gliding through the air like ballerinas on butterfly wings. If they can find a better example of aikido dealing with genuine non-compliant force, I would love to see it.

Okay, maybe what I'm really saying is that I would love to have a friendly crossing of hands with a talented aikido practitioner...I'm curious how his sensitivity would deal with my own.

Having poked my ideas outside, I shall now let this thread return to the Wingchunosphere.

 

[K-man]

For some reason my mind shot to a vid I saw recently, an aikido guy going toe-to-toe with some karate b-belts.
AIKIDO VERSUS SHOTOKAN KARATE - YouTube

Now I wouldn't know aikido if it squatted and took a dump in my garage, but right off the bat I give this guy kudos for putting himself out of his comfort zone and dealing with distance strikers (even if they did seem, ahem, a little feeble). But on youtube his video was universally trashed because his opponents were not gliding through the air like ballerinas on butterfly wings. If they can find a better example of aikido dealing with genuine non-compliant force, I would love to see it.

Okay, maybe what I'm really saying is that I would love to have a friendly crossing of hands with a talented aikido practitioner...I'm curious how his sensitivity would deal with my own.

Having poked my ideas outside, I shall now let this thread return to the Wingchunosphere.

And, I suspect, there might be aikido afictionados who would say that his techniques were not done with enough flair and finesse. But the fact is, you have to work with what you've got in an unscripted contest. We call entering 'irimi'. That is what he did in every instance, moved in a grabbed what he could reach then adjusted his position to achieve a takedown. It is interesting to see a competitive style (in this case Shotokan) against a non competitive style (aikido). None of the karateka had the first clue of what to do when they were grabbed. It was almost like you might expect on the street with an untrained fighter against an Aikidoka.

To me, what would be interesting is if he was matched with your average MMA guys. I know I love the opportunity to try my skills against guys with more ground training than me. Then we would see if he could complete his technique with a submission hold against resistance.
:asian:

 

[Cephalopod]

To me, what would be interesting is if he was matched with your average MMA guys. I know I love the opportunity to try my skills against guys with more ground training than me. Then we would see if he could complete his technique with a submission hold against resistance.
:asian:

I have no doubt that he would have his work cut out for him if he went up against a good grappler who is experieced with take-downs but I don't have enough expertise in this realm to offer a meaningful opinion.

For myself, I would like to see if he could get through my mid-range to apply his uprooting skills without getting peppered dizzy in the head. If I were inclined to stiffen up, which I probable would be if I were not accustomed to having an opponent at close quarters (as is the case with these karatekas), I could see myself falling into a throw/trip/takedown quite easily.

I like to think that by being relaxed, quick and mobile I would be hard to grab onto without him taking some serious damage.
However, I've never rolled with a skilled aikidoka so I just don't know.