Long and short range Tan Sao

[guy b.]

Um, in the real world everything happens fast. I can assure you based on years of military and contract security work , training with the best special ops in the world and being in very close quarters with the enemy in Iraq ,Yemen, Ukraine and Belarus among others if you think you can punch out when you are grabbed it is best if you stay in your school. A trained man can throw you upon contact. It happens just as fast if not faster than you can punch.
Personally I have trained in Sambo and JJ for about 20years and my Kwai family wing chun close range skills have saved my life more than once.

This is why it is advisable to cross train. Wing chun is not grappling- it is hitting. If you find yourself grappling then you had best be doing something that is useful for grappling. Wing chun is blatantly not

 

[guy b.]

It is hilarious that people think they can survive in a grappling situation using wing chun. It is too late for that. You lost. If your opponent knows anything about grappling then they will laugh in the face of your wing chun applications as they proceed to hurt you. Grappling requires randori to work. There is none of this in wing chun. It is like koryu vs bjj. Funny and sad at the same time. This is the anti grappling that causes wing chun to be laughed at.

 

[JPinAZ]

guy b. that last post is using a very broad brush and is far to general of a statement to be taken seriously. If you're talking about on-your back with someone on top of you 'grappling', then yeah. But if you're talking about someone grabbing your arm, or trying to get your back or a take down when you have favorable space, posture and position, then you're just wrong - WC very much has answers for preventing that.
It depends on the situation and what you're referring to when you use the term 'grappling'.

 

[Vajramusti]

This is why it is advisable to cross train. Wing chun is not grappling- it is hitting. If you find yourself grappling then you had best be doing something that is useful for grappling. Wing chun is blatantly not

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Our wing chun apparently are quite different from each other.
Hitting is only part of wing chun. Who did you learn wing chun from>

 

[guy b.]

if you're talking about someone grabbing your arm, or trying to get your back or a take down when you have favorable space, posture and position, then you're just wrong - WC very much has answers for preventing that.

But in those situations you are not yet grappling. Of course wing chun can work very well

 

[guy b.]

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Our wing chun apparently are quite different from each other.
Hitting is only part of wing chun. Who did you learn wing chun from>

Maybe, or perhaps we are just not understanding each other very well. I learned wing chun from several different wing chun teachers of the WSL method.

 

[Vajramusti]

Maybe, or perhaps we are just not understanding each other very well. I learned wing chun from several different wing chun teachers of the WSL method.

Maybe, or perhaps we are just not understanding each other very well. I learned wing chun from several different wing chun teachers of the WSL method.

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Several different...? zig zag

 

[guy b.]

I'm in the UK at the moment. Options are limited. Shouldn't be hard to work it out.

 

[Danny T]

Grappling requires randori to work. There is none of this in wing chun.

You are correct. First randori is a Japanese term. Wing Chun is chinese.
Randori is free exercising meaning free movement and action. (sparring)
If your wing chun training is lacking free movement and action (sparring) that is a lacking within 'your' training. My training and instruction includes a lot of free movement and action (sparring).
I agree that for the most part that most wing chun training is dedicated to stand up striking with some lineages also doing standing grappling and a few work some ground grappling aspects. I believe within the principles and concepts developed within the wing chun system there are grappling actions. Problem is few train and practice them. That said there are other systems that are much better in developing ground fighting skills than wing chun but that doesn't remove the fact that wing chun doesn't have within its framework some grappling components. Most simple do not train it or understand it from a ground fighting perspective.

 

[guy b.]

Where is the ground fighting in wing chun? Where is the standing grappling?

 

[geezer]

Where is the ground fighting in wing chun? Where is the standing grappling?

There are Wing Chunners who can grapple and can use some WC principles in their grappling. But I have not seen evidence of a ground game as being part of traditional approaches to WC.

Oh we have some clinch moves, a few locks and throws, ways to use YGKYM or "goat riding stance" and gwai ma or "kneeling stance" to pin and control a downed opponent while we strike him. And there are some escape moves to help you get free and back to your standing, striking game. But a real, effective ground game? Haven't seen it.

 

[JPinAZ]

I'm in the UK at the moment. Options are limited. Shouldn't be hard to work it out.

Why all the secrecy? Unless you're embarrassed or have something to hide (both of which seem pretty silly), wouldn't it be easier to just tell who your teachers?

You often pose some pretty interesting/strong views on what is/isn't WC. I've always found it interesting to see who people learned from for better insight into their background and why they think the way they do. I wouldn't think it would be such a big deal to share who we learned from.

 

[Vajramusti]

Where is the ground fighting in wing chun? Where is the standing grappling?

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Maybe whoever you learned from did not know or teach you.Grappling does not mean that you wlil use collegiate wrestling, and ground fighting does not mean only bjj.

 

[Jake104]

Hitting is wing chun stategy. Grappling is not. Make of that what you will.

Wing chun is a specialised tool for a particular job. It is a very good tool, maybe the best. But it isn't a multi tool that can do everything. If you try to use it in that way then you are kidding yourself. Your standing joint lock applications will look ridiculous against a decent grappler. Your throws will be weak. Your grip fighting will be pathetic. You will be destroyed because you will be playing someone else's game instead of your own.

If you find yourself grappling with someone, especially on the floor, then it is not the time for wing chun. That time has passed and your wing chun failed. Timescale of wing chun is sub 20 seconds, preferably sub 5 seconds. It is hitting and not letting up until the opponent falls down, all the while making it almost impossible to avoid being hit. It is a horrible thing to happen to a person, and it is very good at what it does.

When I was younger and healthier, I would of agreed with you 100%. I'm getting old my back is jacked. So my WC has changed. Im getting lazy. Why chase you around and try punching you when I can keep you in one spot, punch choke and slam your face in the ground? Maybe it's not technically WC strategy? I don't know. But it's my strategy. Good for me bad for you.

 

[Jake104]

There are Wing Chunners who can grapple and can use some WC principles in their grappling. But I have not seen evidence of a ground game as being part of traditional approaches to WC.

Oh we have some clinch moves, a few locks and throws, ways to use YGKYM or "goat riding stance" and gwai ma or "kneeling stance" to pin and control a downed opponent while we strike him. And there are some escape moves to help you get free and back to your standing, striking game. But a real, effective ground game? Haven't seen it.

What I want to say is going to throw this thread into a tail spin. So I'll just agree with you Steve. You and I see each other on the reg. So I think we are pretty much on same page... I'll just say even on your back there are some principles that overlap. I'll just leave it that, otherwise it turns into a 50 page WC vs grappling crap fest.

 

[Jake104]

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Maybe whoever you learned from did not know or teach you.Grappling does not mean that you wlil use collegiate wrestling, and ground fighting does not mean only bjj.

Yes yes and yes!!!!!

 

[guy b.]

Why all the secrecy? Unless you're embarrassed or have something to hide (both of which seem pretty silly), wouldn't it be easier to just tell who your teachers?

You often pose some pretty interesting/strong views on what is/isn't WC. I've always found it interesting to see who people learned from for better insight into their background and why they think the way they do. I wouldn't think it would be such a big deal to share who we learned from.

Ving Tsun in the UK is pretty small. I don't want to burn any bridges because I am here for a while. It isn't really possible for me to identify myself, but you can narrow who I am currently learning from to a very low number of people and get a good idea of the emphasis of the approach

 

[guy b.]

What I want to say is going to throw this thread into a tail spin. So I'll just agree with you Steve. You and I see each other on the reg. So I think we are pretty much on same page... I'll just say even on your back there are some principles that overlap. I'll just leave it that, otherwise it turns into a 50 page WC vs grappling crap fest.

Using wing chun in this way is not simple direct or efficient. There are many more efficient (and simply better) ways to approach the problem. Why metaphorically chase hands? Discard that

 

[guy b.]

When I was younger and healthier, I would of agreed with you 100%. I'm getting old my back is jacked. So my WC has changed. Im getting lazy. Why chase you around and try punching you when I can keep you in one spot, punch choke and slam your face in the ground? Maybe it's not technically WC strategy? I don't know. But it's my strategy. Good for me bad for you.

I am happy that you are happy with what you do, genuinely. You seem like a nice honest guy

 

[Jake104]

"Using wing chun in this way is not simple direct or efficient. There are many more efficient (and simply better) ways to approach the problem. Why metaphorically chase hands? Discard that"



Yes it is. The D in DTE stands for direct. So it's direct. Plus Geezer knows how direct it is . So, sorry two against one. We win!.... Sorry geezer for dragging you into this but you were my DTE sponsor before I got patched in...