Doc_Jude
3rd Black Belt
This negates ALOT of techniques/methods.
Why You Never Use 2 hands to Disarm a Knife
- Thread starter Hawke
- Start date
This negates ALOT of techniques/methods.
I would modify this slightly, but significantly: If you can't see their hands, assume there is a weapon in it.
Doc_Jude
3rd Black Belt
OP
OP
Hawke
Master Black Belt
Greetings All,
Been a year and my knife education is still on going.
I liked the stuff I saw from Karl Tanswell (I think MJS has the link to the clip).
I also like that stuff I see the Dog Brothers use for knife defense/attack.
They both use 2 hands to disarm.
Great responses from everyone. Thank you.
Hoping the info in this thread will be informative to others.
Been a year and my knife education is still on going.
I liked the stuff I saw from Karl Tanswell (I think MJS has the link to the clip).
I also like that stuff I see the Dog Brothers use for knife defense/attack.
They both use 2 hands to disarm.
Great responses from everyone. Thank you.
Hoping the info in this thread will be informative to others.
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BLACK LION
Black Belt
you dont disarm anyone by taking away thier tool(s).... you disarm them by shutting off their brain or thier body.... they will drop thier tool once they have been injured or it will be stuck in thier cold dead hands...
you do not use one hand...two hands... a jacket... a book... a briefcase to "disarm a tool".... it is not tactically sound or combat effective.... always cause injury thats the goal... becuase that ensures you survive and they dont
I battled this for some time only to find I was completely wrong...
the knife isnt the problem or the solution...
its the attackers brain and central nervous system.... even in imminent danger of contact with the blade causing injury to shut his brain off is the first priority.... depending on size weight technique we can wrestle and dance with the knife all day...accomplishing nothing and taking me closer to death....
if the distance can be closed then penetrate through him and injure him until he is no longer responsive.... you will see the knife become inanimate once the guy cant hold it cuz he is too busy grabbing his crushed throat...
if you can increase the distance by running then thats your choice he may succeed with a woman or child another day....
you cannot dance around the real truth.... its not a duel....screw the knife put him down.... statistically people involved in a knife attack have dozens of superficial or non lethal wounds and one or a couple fatal(last ones).... you may get cut but it beats getting gutted.... same with a gun... its not the gun its the guys brain thats holding it.... and yeah the gun will go off and i may get shot but its better than being executed.... 96% survival rate after being shot once.... its the follow up shots that start to count.... the math is simple.... always cause injury by striking the other person with the bodys entire weight....
zDom
Senior Master
So what are you trying to say?
Ignore the knife and go for a knockout?
You do know that there are people out there who will simply not go unconcious for you, right? "Shutting off their brain" is NOT always as easy as you seem to think it is.
Or am I misunderstanding your post?
BLACK LION
Black Belt
no not at all my friend, let me elaborate....
everyone will fall to a crushed throat....everyone will squeel if you gouge out thier eyes...eveyone will be in agony with a crushed eardrum.... trauma to the central nervous system caused by continous "injury" will shut down thier ability to fight and eventually they will faint or die...
but were talking about a knife attack.... you dont want them unconcious you want them non functional by either killing them or putting them in a bed with a straw till they pull the plug.... we are not lookin for a knockout or a tap out....crush his sternum... break his neck.... rupture his kidney ets
to me a disarm is a social response to a violent confrontation... violence needs to occcur immediately to ensure you go home...there is no time to set up a disarm.... what if they rush you prison or gangland style....imagine football with knives... when I thought of it that way all my disarms techniques went bye bye..... because if they are bigger and stronger you lose....
I was guilty of deuling with the tool but there are too many variables and too many ways to get cut trying to de-tool an attacker.... besides I have to always assume there is more than one attacker and why would I try to deul with someone when I can easily be jumped from another direction and still taken down....
violence is not punching and kicking.... its not a knock out... tthis issocial sportsmans-like conduct....
I am talking about penetrating(entire body) through the guy rotating and crushing his throat, rupturing his testicles or gouging his eyeballs.... these things cause injury(300lb men) and give you the reactions you need to injure more things like crush a patella or an elbow or break some fingers... imagine wrestling a knife away from a fully capable 300lb man or trying to break his arm.... he would toss me across the room.... but if i jam my thumbs into his skull through his eye sockets while pushing his head into the nearest hard surface Im going to get a nervous system reaction that will allow me to injure him further becuase he is no longer fully capable of using his strength and size against me.... I now have the unfair advantage he once thought he had with the knfe... his orbital fissures are crushed and his throat is next.... you show me a victim of a fatal stabbing after they gouged out thier attackers eyeballs and crushed thier throat- prolly wont find one.... now show me a victim of a fatal stabbing that tried to wrestle the knife away or defend against it- there is one every day .....
the human body can withstand large amounts of punishment.... punches ,kicks, throws, locks and mma shows us that.... the brain and the central nervous system remain fully functional and capable... if you rupture a testicle or misplace a hip joint you interrupt the central nervous system with trauma.... this is the goal.... why punch the guy or kick him when you can drop your whole body weight with a fore arm elbow or knee
everyone will fall to a crushed throat....everyone will squeel if you gouge out thier eyes...eveyone will be in agony with a crushed eardrum.... trauma to the central nervous system caused by continous "injury" will shut down thier ability to fight and eventually they will faint or die...
but were talking about a knife attack.... you dont want them unconcious you want them non functional by either killing them or putting them in a bed with a straw till they pull the plug.... we are not lookin for a knockout or a tap out....crush his sternum... break his neck.... rupture his kidney ets
to me a disarm is a social response to a violent confrontation... violence needs to occcur immediately to ensure you go home...there is no time to set up a disarm.... what if they rush you prison or gangland style....imagine football with knives... when I thought of it that way all my disarms techniques went bye bye..... because if they are bigger and stronger you lose....
I was guilty of deuling with the tool but there are too many variables and too many ways to get cut trying to de-tool an attacker.... besides I have to always assume there is more than one attacker and why would I try to deul with someone when I can easily be jumped from another direction and still taken down....
violence is not punching and kicking.... its not a knock out... tthis issocial sportsmans-like conduct....
I am talking about penetrating(entire body) through the guy rotating and crushing his throat, rupturing his testicles or gouging his eyeballs.... these things cause injury(300lb men) and give you the reactions you need to injure more things like crush a patella or an elbow or break some fingers... imagine wrestling a knife away from a fully capable 300lb man or trying to break his arm.... he would toss me across the room.... but if i jam my thumbs into his skull through his eye sockets while pushing his head into the nearest hard surface Im going to get a nervous system reaction that will allow me to injure him further becuase he is no longer fully capable of using his strength and size against me.... I now have the unfair advantage he once thought he had with the knfe... his orbital fissures are crushed and his throat is next.... you show me a victim of a fatal stabbing after they gouged out thier attackers eyeballs and crushed thier throat- prolly wont find one.... now show me a victim of a fatal stabbing that tried to wrestle the knife away or defend against it- there is one every day .....
the human body can withstand large amounts of punishment.... punches ,kicks, throws, locks and mma shows us that.... the brain and the central nervous system remain fully functional and capable... if you rupture a testicle or misplace a hip joint you interrupt the central nervous system with trauma.... this is the goal.... why punch the guy or kick him when you can drop your whole body weight with a fore arm elbow or knee
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I have to agree. You always hear talk about "de-fanging the serpent." Well just think about that for a minute. You find a rattler in the corrals. You gotta kill it, 'cause it's a danger to you and the livestock. Now, you gonna go hunt up a pair a pliers and try to yank out its teeth, or just grab a shovel and crush its head?
Now , like Black Lion said, doesn't the same thing apply when you're dealing with a human snake?
Bodhisattva
Blue Belt
Disarming a knife wielding attacker is ALWAYS dangerous.
You are much better grabbing his knife arm with TWO hands than with One.
Just think about it. The reasons are obvious.
You grab my knife hand with one hand, and I am going to cut you.
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wrc619
Yellow Belt
I think there is a very good reason there is a Federal doctrine that man with a drawn knife is more dangerous than a man with a holsterd gun at 9 feet. I think the create distance for defense has the most merit. When we do knife drills, a disarm is a secondary consideration. Avoid the blade is number one. If he happens to drop the knife from a runaway back kick in the balls, or some other dirty rotten survival(so called cheating) tactic great. During our recent knife training day, Instructor had us use markers and wear white T-shirts. Even Instructor got "cut". We were using free sparring, which is in essence, use all that you have learned thus far to defend yourself. Knife defense number one doesn't work very well on an uncooperative opponent. Those drills were done to reinforce to us the reality:xtrmshock that karate is not magic.
A good point, and if that can work, fine!
If you have a shovel, sure. A shovel is, what, 3 times as long as the snake? If I had an 18 foot long weapon I could use effectively against a 6 foot tall man with an 8 inch knife, I'd use it.
If I was in grappling range with a snake I'd probably try to grab it just below its head so it couldn't bite me, and snap it there if I could. That's a defanging idea--rendering its fangs useless. For a human, the analogy would be controlling the hand and breaking the wrist.
BLACK LION
Black Belt
how would you combat a man who is 6 ft something with an 8'' blade???? in the case of this thread contact has been made so physicality is iminent.... right..... so you have been interviewed and ambushed
what would you do??? try to get something in between you to "shield you from the big bad knife(snake)" ???? run(become game) ??? put your tool up and start deulin(movie magic)??? try to wrestle with this obvious monster (defang the serpent)" ??? try to socialize your way out with family photos???? get out your jacket to wrap him up????
nothing you can think of will ensure 100% that you and others will have a better chance of survival... nothing.... its all magical bs.... the knife is only a force multiplier it is not the weapon and not the target.... the knife carries a mystic aura of terror.... and the knife cant even do anything unless its in someones hands(go figure)..... people give too much power to a powerless object.... the only thing that will ensure 100% that you will have a better chance of surviving a knife attack is action...abrupt and violent action... you need to ambush them with unsuspecting violence.... hence "the shovel".... we are not talking about taking your social martial arts skills to this bad guy....we are talking about using your entire body weight to destroy him.... we are talking about using your most dangerous weapon of all.... your mind.... this is the shovel on the head of the snake.... we are not wrestling this guy or trying to punch and kick him becuase it will not affect him(defang/poison snake... hes a monster... your arm or leg weighs what 10-20lbs??? you are better off picking up a rock.... now.... how much do you weigh 150-190 lbs??? hit him with that and see what happens.... you drive 180 lbs of force into an eye socket or some testicles or anything on that mans body you will see true damage.... structural meltdown.... a man can can take a 100 punches but only 1 crushed trachea.... there is a vast difference in the mindset and execution here.... your body is the shovel to that snakes head
what would you do??? try to get something in between you to "shield you from the big bad knife(snake)" ???? run(become game) ??? put your tool up and start deulin(movie magic)??? try to wrestle with this obvious monster (defang the serpent)" ??? try to socialize your way out with family photos???? get out your jacket to wrap him up????
nothing you can think of will ensure 100% that you and others will have a better chance of survival... nothing.... its all magical bs.... the knife is only a force multiplier it is not the weapon and not the target.... the knife carries a mystic aura of terror.... and the knife cant even do anything unless its in someones hands(go figure)..... people give too much power to a powerless object.... the only thing that will ensure 100% that you will have a better chance of surviving a knife attack is action...abrupt and violent action... you need to ambush them with unsuspecting violence.... hence "the shovel".... we are not talking about taking your social martial arts skills to this bad guy....we are talking about using your entire body weight to destroy him.... we are talking about using your most dangerous weapon of all.... your mind.... this is the shovel on the head of the snake.... we are not wrestling this guy or trying to punch and kick him becuase it will not affect him(defang/poison snake... hes a monster... your arm or leg weighs what 10-20lbs??? you are better off picking up a rock.... now.... how much do you weigh 150-190 lbs??? hit him with that and see what happens.... you drive 180 lbs of force into an eye socket or some testicles or anything on that mans body you will see true damage.... structural meltdown.... a man can can take a 100 punches but only 1 crushed trachea.... there is a vast difference in the mindset and execution here.... your body is the shovel to that snakes head
The two hand cover does work. It is described in Renaissance manuals, written by those who trained a lot of knife fighting. The key is, you don't STAY there and hang on for dear life. You gotta move and do something as fast as possible... faster than you can think. It must be reflex. Against the thrust from below, the two hand cover, which should be done with the heels of the hands, can be followed up by pulling the opponent towards you to take his balance, and pivoting, breaking the arm over your shoulder (for example).
The fact of the matter is, you're in big trouble already if you're in a knife fight, and have made some serious tactical errors to end up in that situation in the first place. If the attack is by ambush, and you manage to see the attack coming at all (lucky you), then you've got to use whatever cover you can pull off. The situation is already desperate.
Best regards,
-Mark
Yes, exactly right. The dojo dancers in the videos that started this thread have no real idea how these "two hand" defenses really work. You do them right and the other guy has no chance to react before his arm is broken or he's staring back at his own knife.
sgtmac_46
Senior Master
Darn those uncooperative street thugs, not going unconscious when they should! :lool:
sgtmac_46
Senior Master
So, you laugh. Actually, you deflect the attacking arm and gain control of it, then hit the guy, usually with a palm heel to the point of the chin, but anywhere on the head will do. Then you lock him up or throw him which will destroy his elbow or put him in a position to be stomped. This is pretty standard stuff advocated across the centuries. You find it in koryu jujutsu systems, in judo manuals from the turn of the century up to WW2 (and I've seen it in Marine WW2 training films), and among modern practitioners such as Hochheim. Such defenses also are staples in krav maga, with good reason: because they are effective.
I once met a corrections officer who did this in response to a shank attack, except instead of hitting the inmate in the head, he hit the guy in the chest. The force of the blow, combined with some leg action, drove the inmate to the ground with such force that he cracked his skull on the floor.
sgtmac_46
Senior Master
If you can do all of that so simply, you should be making a ton of money in the cage, which should actually be easier since no one has a knife. There is no 'simply' involved in a knife attack. And if you can 'punch someone in the head' every time and knock someone silly you really should be a professional turning that talent in to lots of money.
With all due respect to Krav Maga, I wouldn't put all my eggs in those baskets......while Israelis know a thing or two about combat, there are very few Israeli on Palestinian knife fights....rifles, tanks, helicopters, explosives, but few knife attacks.......ergo the vast majority of what you see in knife defense in Krav Maga is based on 'theory' from other systems.
What makes me laugh about the 'palm heel to the chin'/'break the arm' comments is that they often don't work in fights WITHOUT knives......we can see plenty of evidence of that. Why is it when we throw a knife in to the equation, some martial arts believe it becomes EASIER to fight? I'll tell you why....unrealistic training end expectations.......the guy feeding the knife attack in training is dummying up, and giving a false impression........the very comment 'deflect the attacking arm' illustrates that perfectly.......as it suggests something about many knife attacks that only exist in the dojo.
When researching knife attacks one shouldn't resort to the 'commando' school of knife fighting, as soldiers typically use a knife as a tool, and rarely find themselves defending knife attacks.....commando units teach sentry removal with a knife, but that's entirely separate discipline.
One should also be wary of arts who's blade knowledge arrives from an earlier area of sword and battlefield experience where combatants wore armor, as that colors the techniques used.....a prime example being jujitsu and it's derivatives like Judo.....Japan has long be a sword culture, because of the Samurai, but not a 'knife' culture.....the dynamics are different.
One should stick to arts from strong blade cultures, where REAL stabbings are common place.....places like the Philippines where stabbings out number shootings, and in that crucible the truth is filtered from the BS!
Now Hock did make some good points about some techniques commonly disregarded...he calls them 'the myth of the first event' and 'the myth that all knife fighters are experts'....he makes the point that not ALL knife attacks are from the pumper on steroid type, and that is true......but if you don't train for the pumper on steroid types, if you encounter him you're going to DIE!
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I once met a federal corrections officer who did this to me in training and blew out my knee, leading to an ACL replacement and other more minor repairs to it. He didn't hit the technique quite right and had to muscle it...I was on the floor.
Excellent point about the "age" and details of the blade culture that informed defenses in some arts.
Sure they do. I know quite a number of people who had used this so called useless stuff in real attacks. For instance, a few years back a friend of mine came out of a grocery store late at night and caught a guy trying to jack his car. The car jacker tried to stab him with a screw driver, which in case you're not in the business is one of the prevailing edged weapons out there. My friend broke his arm with one of those useless techniques and then fended off his buddy who tried to bash my friend's head in with a bat and put him on the ground too. His comment to me later was: "It worked just like in class." The ring and the street are two different environments. What works in one doesn't necessarily have to work in the other to make it real.
On the palm heel, I know a CO who fractured an inmate's cheek bone with one. Put the guy down really fast.
Actually there's quite a lot of material out there written 500-600 years ago that describes what to do in a knife attack and it doesn't involve wearing armor. Do you know better than those guys, who really fought with sharps rather than sitting at their keyboards speculating? I doubt it. BTW, the technique I described is right out of one those books, written by Hans Talhoffer in 1447 (except Talhoffer used a closed fist not the palm heel). Personally, I'll take his advice over that of the armchair experts of today.
Hochheim is a sensible guy. Another one out there is Jim Wagner. Both of them have broad practical experience in the real world and, not surprisingly, their answers to the problem of a knife attack are similar and consistent with what you find in the old European fighting manuals.
As for the steroid hyped dude, it could be that you can't even put that sort down even with a 45. The techniques in most systems are designed to deal with the average knife attack, which interestingly enough, tends to be the same wherever you go and during any time period. But you can adapt that stuff to your more difficult assailant. And I agree, it doesn't hurt to train for that possibility. In fact, I have a training partner who is 245 lbs vs. my 170. He's built like a tree and it is impossible to make most locks work on him, so I've had to be creative. It's been tough. But any reasonable person has to admit that not everything works all the time or against everyone.
THere are few "knife fights" period. Most "knife fights" are in fact knife assaults in which one person has his knife out and the other one doesn't. The krav maga answer to the knife attack is simple and practical. You'd do yourself some good to pay attention to it rather than sneering at it. It might save your life someday.
Which goes to show that you know nothing about koryu jujutsu. It never was a strictly unarmed art, and most ryuha have sophisticated methods for dealing with weapons attacks of all kinds, including knives. Interestingly, these methods are identical to those used in Europe 500-600 years ago.
As you move I move.
So ....
The attack was a bait, so I pull it back across your deflection and cut you.
As you attempt to gain control, I change directions and stab.
I have either zoned out of your attack range or if you have moved with me after being cut, and while being stabbed you strike me, I am hiding my chin behind my shoulder.
Usually is not always which you have stated here yourself.
While the egg shell concern for any strike to the head is something to be concerned with, I think depending upon this could be a problem. I never bet on anything 100%, I always expect everything I do to be countered and I am willing to react accordingly.
Ok let us assume you have me locked up. Now you have two hands on one. While it gives you strength on the weapon hand, I have my free hand to strike back. According to your statements if someone survived your assaults they would have a good chance to knock you out.
Now Like I said I do not think that anything is 100% effective, I think that having an open mind to the situation gives one more options to surviving then closing your mind. But that is my opinion.
The destruction of the elbow is not gaurenteed. I mean if one counters with a bent elbow and dropped center it can negate/counter this technique.
By Stomped, I assume Foot Stomped while you have two hands on their one and trying to turn them out which would negate the above strike I mentioned would be a counter. This is good, but understand that if they were looking for their counter strike earlier then they might be prepared here as well, and be ready to counter like I said.
As Arnisador stated, if this is done at full strength or speed to a person it can most definitely damage the person. But I do not bet on it being 100% effective.
Effective they are. 100% guarenteed they are not. To me it is not the art or lineage of where it comes from, but from the person(s) who is(are) executing the techniques.
I myself have done lots of things with inexperienced attackers, with a Knife and empty hand and/or other weapons. Or programmed attackers. I have had people strike me only 3 times and drop their hands as that is all the ever practiced for. Instead of striking them in the head, I did palm heel strikes/pushes to the chest to knock him down.
So ....
The attack was a bait, so I pull it back across your deflection and cut you.
As you attempt to gain control, I change directions and stab.
I have either zoned out of your attack range or if you have moved with me after being cut, and while being stabbed you strike me, I am hiding my chin behind my shoulder.
Usually is not always which you have stated here yourself.
While the egg shell concern for any strike to the head is something to be concerned with, I think depending upon this could be a problem. I never bet on anything 100%, I always expect everything I do to be countered and I am willing to react accordingly.
Ok let us assume you have me locked up. Now you have two hands on one. While it gives you strength on the weapon hand, I have my free hand to strike back. According to your statements if someone survived your assaults they would have a good chance to knock you out.
Now Like I said I do not think that anything is 100% effective, I think that having an open mind to the situation gives one more options to surviving then closing your mind. But that is my opinion.
The destruction of the elbow is not gaurenteed. I mean if one counters with a bent elbow and dropped center it can negate/counter this technique.
By Stomped, I assume Foot Stomped while you have two hands on their one and trying to turn them out which would negate the above strike I mentioned would be a counter. This is good, but understand that if they were looking for their counter strike earlier then they might be prepared here as well, and be ready to counter like I said.
As Arnisador stated, if this is done at full strength or speed to a person it can most definitely damage the person. But I do not bet on it being 100% effective.
Effective they are. 100% guarenteed they are not. To me it is not the art or lineage of where it comes from, but from the person(s) who is(are) executing the techniques.
I myself have done lots of things with inexperienced attackers, with a Knife and empty hand and/or other weapons. Or programmed attackers. I have had people strike me only 3 times and drop their hands as that is all the ever practiced for. Instead of striking them in the head, I did palm heel strikes/pushes to the chest to knock him down.
