Why You Never Use 2 hands to Disarm a Knife

[Langenschwert]

The two hand cover does work. It is described in Renaissance manuals, written by those who trained a lot of knife fighting. The key is, you don't STAY there and hang on for dear life. You gotta move and do something as fast as possible... faster than you can think. It must be reflex. Against the thrust from below, the two hand cover, which should be done with the heels of the hands, can be followed up by pulling the opponent towards you to take his balance, and pivoting, breaking the arm over your shoulder (for example).

The fact of the matter is, you're in big trouble already if you're in a knife fight, and have made some serious tactical errors to end up in that situation in the first place. If the attack is by ambush, and you manage to see the attack coming at all (lucky you), then you've got to use whatever cover you can pull off. The situation is already desperate.

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[arnisador]

Against the thrust from below, the two hand cover, which should be done with the heels of the hands, can be followed up by pulling the opponent towards you to take his balance, and pivoting, breaking the arm over your shoulder (for example).

Yup...or, drive the arm back to his body where it's weak (say, along the leg), then strike and/or disarm.

 

[bonviet]

Great posts guys, agree with alot don't with very little, any plan i've seen here is a hell of alot better than what we commonly see as Knife defense.
I've been in them. and i've seen them used on others Both agricultural edged weapons and on humans in slum vill
I felt my knife stab,Felt like someone had given me a VERY hard Injection of those horse needles IT hurt but had that Stinging and pressure insertion feel to it. it wasn't that bad NO BRAGGING, But thank go it FELT like something going into me not just a punch or i would have ignored it. Itfelt like a BIG Shot.And got my complete an total undivided attention. Also his weapon was a very good Shiv Triangle blade sharp as bejeezus and they are common here and made from thick cheap screw drivers who then triangle them on a automantic wetstone into a triangle with the edges sharp as a razor then finish with tapering off the tringle until it endges. cost you about 3 dollars, they then get some cardboard and there is you sheath.but it's sti;; a common tool to use here for carving about stuff etc.
but not the cuts on the hands i didn't notice until the matter had been resolved but immediately afterwards and they Burned like i had Stuck a lighter over them..
Odd.

 

[Josh Oakley]

MHO, you can in fact use a two handed defense against a single knife. From the inside? not so much. But if you get on the outside, sometimes a two-handed control is best, and allows you more options than the attacker. But in an empty handed defense against ANY weapon, there are three principles that ill keep your chances of survival high:

1. End the situation as quickly as possible. The longer the fight, the more likely you are to get cut.
2. Disarm the attacker if at all possible. He can't cut you so easy without his knife.
3. Disable your attacker. Break something. Twist something, hit everything. Heck, get him to stab himself. If he's moving, he's dangerous. If he's disarmed and moving, he's still dangerous. If someone pulls a lethal weapon on you, their intention is, almost undoubtedly, similarly lethal.

Focus your training around these principles and you'll increase your chances of survival.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

MHO, you can in fact use a two handed defense against a single knife. From the inside? not so much. But if you get on the outside, sometimes a two-handed control is best, and allows you more options than the attacker. But in an empty handed defense against ANY weapon, there are three principles that ill keep your chances of survival high:

1. End the situation as quickly as possible. The longer the fight, the more likely you are to get cut.
2. Disarm the attacker if at all possible. He can't cut you so easy without his knife.
3. Disable your attacker. Break something. Twist something, hit everything. Heck, get him to stab himself. If he's moving, he's dangerous. If he's disarmed and moving, he's still dangerous. If someone pulls a lethal weapon on you, their intention is, almost undoubtedly, similarly lethal.

Focus your training around these principles and you'll increase your chances of survival.

Nice post and a well thought out response. Being on the inside is simply put more dangerous than being on the outside. Good post that I enjoyed reading.

 

[Bigshadow]

This clip is pretty good. Is it possible to get cut, punched, kicked, etc.?

The thing I would like to point out about that particular clip is... He is telling the folks to go full speed and full force, but when he is being attacked by the student, it isn't a matter of full speed full force, but timing and proper distance. If you watch him closely, he moves at the moment the guy attacks and is inside before the blade is "there".

The purpose I pointed that out is that the full speed/full force thing is GOOD once in a while, AFTER you already have internalized the timing and proper movement, then at which time it really won't make much difference to you whether they go fast or slow, it will all be the same. Unfortunately, some folks tend to want to go full speed/full force before they have actually learned what it is they need to learn and this slows their training progress.


As for knife work, I never teach to grab the knife hand, whether single handed or double handed. I do believe that aside from being very far away from the knife, the safest place to be is between the knife and the attacker (The same side the attacker is on ).

I believe focusing on the knife is a good way to receive the knife... If ya know what I mean...

 

[tellner]

It's important to be able to do things at speed and against real resistance. But these days it sometimes becomes so much of a fad that it gets in the way of learning. You need to have a good foundation and be able to do things correctly, with proper body mechanics and good understanding. That requires progressive training. Some of it will be slow, precise and controlled, especially at the beginning. If you go too hard and too fast too quickly you will ingrain bad habits that just happen to work a little bit better than whatever else you have.

When the stakes are as high as weapons defense it's even more important. You have to get it right under pressure and do it the first time. So you have to be used to pressure and you have to be able to do it right. Work up to the speed and power gradually and make sure that the technical skills have a chance to get to the proper level. When you're going harder and faster make the difficulty just a touch or two past where you're comfortable but not quite out of reach. Then pull back a bit, improve until that level is almost easy and amp it up a little more. That way you won't be training for failure and will be able to keep your training under increased pressure. Other than shooting every horse that doesn't jump the fence first time that's the only way to end up with people who can go hard and fast with skill.

 

[SilatFan]

The video and Mr. Cuda’s argument remind me of a TMA instructor (I like and respect TMA I’m just trying to use an example most of us have heard or seen before) who saw a young Mark Colman takedown and ground n’ pound an opponent into oblivion. Then the TMA instructor said “If that Coleman or any of those other UFC guys tried to take me down I’d just do this.... (Insert an absurdly, impossible, unrealistic and ineffective technique done against a poorly executed takedown).

”And if they tried to ground and pound me I’d do this… (Insert more of the same).

“And if a boxer tried to jab me I’d do this…. (Again insert a poorly demonstrated jab and then the magic counter).

“And if they tried to…… Well, you get the point.



There is always a counter and re-counter to just about every technique when done in a vacuum. Those counters look even better when the person doing the technique, in this case the 2 on 1 arm control, executes the technique/tactic poorly. I’m not suggesting that training in Mr. Cuda’s JKD isn’t a good thing. I just believe it’s easy to say a tactic doesn’t work when our training partner does it poorly AND we know its coming.

With the premise that for some reason you must be or begin the encounter empty handed I’d recommend the following instructors and videos. Please note some of them contradict one another at least slightly in what they advocate and/or they cover different aspects of knife defense. In no particular order:


Senshido’s Defense against an edged weapon
Kelly McCann/Jim Grover’s Defense against an edged weapon
Die Less Often by Marc Denny and Gabe Suarez
Red Zone 1 and 2 by Wetzel (SBGi)
STAB by Karl Tanswell (SBGi)
Michael Janich Defense against an edged weapon


There are a ton of other resources out there but the above are the ones I’ve seen and respect. I hope they might benefit you if you check them out.

 

[arnisador]

The thing I would like to point out about that particular clip is... He is telling the folks to go full speed and full force, but when he is being attacked by the student, it isn't a matter of full speed full force, but timing and proper distance. If you watch him closely, he moves at the moment the guy attacks and is inside before the blade is "there".

Yes, a matter of "perceptual speed" that will work well for the expert but which the beginner may not have developed, and the surprised victim may not have time enough to use. It's great to have this ability but I agree it speaks more to the instructor's skills than the technique's viability. Not that this is a criticism of the techniques--it's just that an expert can, by definition, make his or her stuff work! If you have that kind of timing/reaction advantage on your opponent, you can often just beat them to the punch with an (eye) jab anyway rather than use some more sophisticated technique.

 

[Bigshadow]

I agree it speaks more to the instructor's skills than the technique's viability. Not that this is a criticism of the techniques--it's just that an expert can, by definition, make his or her stuff work! If you have that kind of timing/reaction advantage on your opponent, you can often just beat them to the punch with an (eye) jab anyway rather than use some more sophisticated technique.

Absolutely! That is what I was trying to say...

 

[MingTheMerciless]

Either Run away or surrender , you will most likely meet slash and cut from knife attack even when you know how to disarm and Knife are really excellent close quarter weapon .

 

[Mr. E]

Either Run away or surrender ,

No.

If you are talking about someone producing a knife and demanding a wallet, then I think you should hand over the wallet. But if someone pulls a knife and demands you get into their van, then you either have to run or fight. The same goes for a women being raped. It seems to now be rather common for rapists of the jump out of the bushes sort to kill their victims afterwards. In both cases, you probably will be killed if you surrender and give in, so you should fight if you can't run away. But never surrender when that could lead to you dying.

 

[shesulsa]

No.

If you are talking about someone producing a knife and demanding a wallet, then I think you should hand over the wallet. But if someone pulls a knife and demands you get into their van, then you either have to run or fight. The same goes for a women being raped. It seems to now be rather common for rapists of the jump out of the bushes sort to kill their victims afterwards. In both cases, you probably will be killed if you surrender and give in, so you should fight if you can't run away. But never surrender when that could lead to you dying.

AMEN, brother.

artyon:

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

No.

If you are talking about someone producing a knife and demanding a wallet, then I think you should hand over the wallet. But if someone pulls a knife and demands you get into their van, then you either have to run or fight. The same goes for a women being raped. It seems to now be rather common for rapists of the jump out of the bushes sort to kill their victims afterwards. In both cases, you probably will be killed if you surrender and give in, so you should fight if you can't run away. But never surrender when that could lead to you dying.

Yes at some point you have to make a gut choice and go with it.

 

[Karatedrifter7]

I'm wrestling with this one too. But I say you have some kind of plan of action, even if its just means running like hell.
All too often somebody produces a knife, the other person gets immobolized by fear, and then stabbed to death.

 

[Rob Wilson]

Easiest two hand disarm as follows:

Left hand on pump of mossberg 12 gauge, right hand on grip. Just make sure you are a good 25 feet back. Pump action and pull trigger as many times as needed to ensure meat is cooked.

Above recipe is not recommended for enclosed spaces.

Also recommended: Tell attacker, "Hey look, there's Elvis/ Frank Sinatra/ Paris Hilton". When knife packer turns with hopeful look on face and with autographable picture and pen, quickly push him into fast moving jet turbine. Use both hands.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Easiest two hand disarm as follows:

Left hand on pump of mossberg 12 gauge, right hand on grip. Just make sure you are a good 25 feet back. Pump action and pull trigger as many times as needed to ensure meat is cooked.

Above recipe is not recommended for enclosed spaces.

Also recommended: Tell attacker, "Hey look, there's Elvis/ Frank Sinatra/ Paris Hilton". When knife packer turns with hopeful look on face and with autographable picture and pen, quickly push him into fast moving jet turbine. Use both hands.

AW Man, I shoot left handed with shot-guns. I guess this would not work for me.


I have staid out of this discussion for a reason. I think every move has a counter. As such, there is always a spot of danger, and dealing with a knife it makes it even more so. That is in my opinion.

 

[tellner]

Rob, the Mossberg 590 has a bayonet lug. Add that special ingredient, and the recipe works just fine.

 

[Rob Wilson]

Hey thanks, this is good to know. I don't really know squat about guns, just that the pointy end with the hole in it goes towards the bad guy......

Thanks for all the neat opinions and knowledgeable talky.

 

[bigdave44]

I know this subject can be talked about to death for hours on end. Most seem to have some pretty good ideas and suggestions. Just to add my .02...you WILL get cut in a knife "fight", the important thing is remembering where the worst places to get cut are, and protect those areas, such as a thrust to the chest, slash to the throat, or slicing the inside of your forearms(wrist and up). The unfortunate statistic is that most people never knew their attacker had a knife until they got stabbed...or even fought off the attacker only to realize they are bleeding everywhere from a knife they never saw. They all assumed that their attacker did not have a weapon. It may not help, but if these people assumed that the person had a knife they may have saved themselves a few seconds of reaction time and at least increased their awareness.

I think that the mental aspect for a martial artist should focus less on the word "knife fighting" as much as it should be recognized as "surviving attempted murder." If someone pulls a knife on you, they are demonstrating intent to kill you. They are not looking for a "fight", they are looking to kill. The scary thing is that if someone intends to kill you, and you have no idea they are coming, or they have a knife fully concealed in a sweatshirt sleeve and they run up and attack you...good luck, just pray that on the first strike they miss a vital area and now you can rock and roll. When I was young I briefly trained with a kid. He trained for a couple months then dissapeared. About ten years later my instructor showed me an article...apparently the kid(now in his 20's) was at a baseball game. After the game he and his friend were walking back to their truck...he apparently bumped into the rear view mirror or a parked car while shuffling through the crowded parking lot. Unfortunatley in the car were a few gang members that were about to initiate a new member, and he got out of the car, walked up to the man, stabbed him in the heart and ran away, killing the man i once new as a child. He had no warning, no time to react.

Im not exactly sure what my point is, and I am going to sound a bit paranoid...but if you train yourself to always assume that the person approaching you aggresively has a knife and knows how to use it, you at least gain a split second in your reaction time. Just like the SuperBad movie...the cop walks into a party announcing "I assume you all have crack and guns!"...my motto have become similar, assuming everyone has knives!