Why You Never Use 2 hands to Disarm a Knife

[Hawke]

Demonstration of why using two hands to disarm can be dangerous.

Part 1

Part 2

What are your thoughts? Has anyone seen a 2 hand disarm fast enough to work? Can you post a YouTube link of an efficient knife disarm?

Thanks.

(I still like some of the moves here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7mWBtaQ6xo&mode=related&search= )

 

[thardey]

Trying to disarm a knife empty handed is dangerous, period. There's no safe way to do it.

As far as his alternative -- defense playing around with parries just increases the time that you're in lethal range - his partner is hanging out in the absolute worst range for a knife attack. You can tell that the partner is trying to back out of range, but is trying to stay in frame for the camera -- he isn't comfortable there, either.

Either get in and knee the guy as hard as you can, as many times as you can, or get out of there. Don't play around with "dueling" against a knife - empty handed or not.

Some people have noticed that in grappling there's a counter to every move, if you catch the right opportunity. It's the same with knives. There isn't a disarm technique out there that someone can't come up with a counter for, if you react quickly enough. But personally, I would rather take a hit from a fist than from a blade.

 

[Steel Tiger]

Trying to disarm a knife empty handed is dangerous, period. There's no safe way to do it.

As far as his alternative -- defense playing around with parries just increases the time that you're in lethal range - his partner is hanging out in the absolute worst range for a knife attack. You can tell that the partner is trying to back out of range, but is trying to stay in frame for the camera -- he isn't comfortable there, either.

Either get in and knee the guy as hard as you can, as many times as you can, or get out of there. Don't play around with "dueling" against a knife - empty handed or not.

Some people have noticed that in grappling there's a counter to every move, if you catch the right opportunity. It's the same with knives. There isn't a disarm technique out there that someone can't come up with a counter for, if you react quickly enough. But personally, I would rather take a hit from a fist than from a blade.

Knives are dire, there is no doubt about that. Personally, if unarmed against a blade I prefer to give the guy something to think about besides his knive. Usually intense pain.

One hand or two hand disarms, either way doesn't matter, as Thardey said, you can't play about. Get in close and slam 'em hard. Get them thinking about other things. Or run, if you can. Simple as that.

 

[MA-Caver]

I read somewhere about a DI in the army who was instructing his recruits about knife to empty hand combat. I remember this article very clearly because it was my first real introduction to knife fighting. I must've been about 8-10 yrs old.
The instructor was using a real (sharpened) knife. He must've wanted his recruits to actually think about how dangerous it was. He had a recruit come at him with a knife and try to stab him. A couple of moves later the recruit was lying on the ground groaning in pain and the instructor was bleeding from his hand. His words to his recruits stayed with me (not that I actually followed them) "...sometimes you have to throw your hand away..."
This got me thinking. Presumably in a desperate life or death fighting situation you may end up having to do that. BUT! I would think as a last minute resort. There are other ways (as the instructor of the above videos have shown) how to combat a knife unarmed without risking yourself getting cut/stabbed.
I've seen knife fights and have been in one... got a good 4 inch scar on my right forearm to show for it...though it's fading with age. I was fortunate that it was not that deep of a cut.
The video instructor definitely understands that the use of two hands is risky and even foolhardy. Yet it all depends upon who's wielding the knife doesn't it? If it's a trained or experienced knife fighter then yes that combatant is going to know that he can use one hand with the knife to threaten and distract and use the other hand to disable long enough to use the knife as intended.
An un-trained fighter however is going to try and use the knife and only the knife (in my experience). Grab that and they do as the instructor showed as fiction, try to wrest the knife away so that they can use it.
Basically as I see it, if the knife person is going to use his two hands to try and break free from your ONE handed grip you got the free hand to bash HIS face in... there's also the feet as well as hands for weapons.
This of course is where knife defense training in (any) Martial Arts comes in handy.

 

[Steel Tiger]

I read somewhere about a DI in the army who was instructing his recruits about knife to empty hand combat. I remember this article very clearly because it was my first real introduction to knife fighting. I must've been about 8-10 yrs old.
The instructor was using a real (sharpened) knife. He must've wanted his recruits to actually think about how dangerous it was. He had a recruit come at him with a knife and try to stab him. A couple of moves later the recruit was lying on the ground groaning in pain and the instructor was bleeding from his hand. His words to his recruits stayed with me (not that I actually followed them) "...sometimes you have to throw your hand away..."
This got me thinking. Presumably in a desperate life or death fighting situation you may end up having to do that. BUT! I would think as a last minute resort. There are other ways (as the instructor of the above videos have shown) how to combat a knife unarmed without risking yourself getting cut/stabbed.
I've seen knife fights and have been in one... got a good 4 inch scar on my right forearm to show for it...though it's fading with age. I was fortunate that it was not that deep of a cut.
The video instructor definitely understands that the use of two hands is risky and even foolhardy. Yet it all depends upon who's wielding the knife doesn't it? If it's a trained or experienced knife fighter then yes that combatant is going to know that he can use one hand with the knife to threaten and distract and use the other hand to disable long enough to use the knife as intended.
An un-trained fighter however is going to try and use the knife and only the knife (in my experience). Grab that and they do as the instructor showed as fiction, try to wrest the knife away so that they can use it.
Basically as I see it, if the knife person is going to use his two hands to try and break free from your ONE handed grip you got the free hand to bash HIS face in... there's also the feet as well as hands for weapons.
This of course is where knife defense training in (any) Martial Arts comes in handy.

Some good, strong points about knife fighting here. I always tell my students that when facing a knife they have to be prepared to get cut, like the instructor mentioned was, if that is what it takes to gain control of the situation.

 

[MA-Caver]

Some good, strong points about knife fighting here. I always tell my students that when facing a knife they have to be prepared to get cut, like the instructor mentioned was, if that is what it takes to gain control of the situation.

Thank you... but of course at all costs avoid getting cut in the first place as that is to be your last resort. :uhyeah:

 

[tellner]

My experience is very limited compared to some of the lurkers, cops, soldiers and guys with hard lives here who haven't just "seen the elephant" but have opened concession stands in the freakin' Elephants' Graveyard. But I've picked up a couple things and had to deal with people who had knives a couple times...

• There are no good places to get cut. There are some places that suck beyond human comprehension to get cut. The outsides of the forearms and shins suck somewhat less than anywhere else
• Don't go empty hand against a knife. Have a weapon of some sort. A 2x4 makes a dandy weapon.
• If you don't have a weapon you're in a bad way
• But don't despair and never give up
• If you screw around in the middle distance you will die. You need to be in very, very close or well outside his reach.
• Get control of the knife arm quicker than humanly possible.
• Once you do, cause massive amounts of damage. There is no such thing as excessive force in a situation like this.
• Blood and sweat are slippery.
• Nobody does just one big attack. Be ready for the knife to change directions and for repeated attacks.
• Remember what I said about control.
• A really good guy with a knife won't let you see it first. He'll just stab you.
• Try not to get people like that mad at you.
• If someone is showing you the knife it's a threat. He might kill you a second from now, but just at this moment he's trying to impress you or get you to do something. Drop socks and grab, err, whatever comes to hand and use that precious second to do something. Attack. Get control. Run away. Shoot him between the dies. But don't waste a moment.
• Be ready for the other knife.
• Kicking the knife out of the hand or plucking the hand out of the air with a perfect wrist lock is a nice fantasy. The chances are right up there with the Olsen Twins showing up at my house and offering me $20 million and tag-team adult intimacy.
• A lot of time getting cut or stabbed doesn't register at the time. Sometimes it feels cold. Sometimes it feels like you were punched.
• Don't worry if you do get cut or stabbed. Deal with the guy and then worry about the red stuff coming out. You only have so much blood pressure. Use that time wisely.
• Once he's not a threat use your QuikClot, field dressing, compressed gauze, one-hand tourniquet and Steri-strips as appropriate. You don't carry at least two of those with you? Consider it. They aren't expensive and are infinitely cheaper than bleeding out.
• Ladies, between the ages of 13 and your mid 40s you generally carry around something that is sterile, absorbent and perfect for stopping bleeding. Carry a spare or two.
• The Indonesians have a saying "When two men fight with knives the loser is ash, but the winner is charcoal."
• There's no shame in being afraid of going up against a guy with a knife. If you're nonchalant and blase about it you are ignorant, suicidal, crazy, delusional or so good that you aren't spending time on Martial Talk. The fear is your friend as long as you use the powers it gives you to tear the mofo's head off and beat him to death with it.

Have I missed anything?

 

[tellner]

Oh yeah. At all costs avoid the "Dead Man's Position". That's where he's got an empty hand forward and the knife back where you can't get at it. If you find yourself there get the hell out of Dodge.

 

[Fang]

"Blood and sweat are slippery. "

Yes AND blood is warm to the touch, if you get cut above the eyes knife or not it may distract you. I dont know much about knife combat, in fact i know very little but i have been cut above the eyes extensively with regular punches and metal equalizers. Be ready for that warmth of the blood and don't let it send you into a state of panic. Blood is very slick until it turns pulpy be very aware of that like tellner said...

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

There are simply, no absolute's! What might work in one situation will fail in another.

I actually like quite a bit of Barry's work he has some good sound ideas and overall appears that his knowledge is good. However, like in any video things do not get explained or shown where you can dissect it as with a live instructor. Clearly you do not want to be in the middle ground so to speak when defending against someone with a knife. You either want to be far enough away that he has to cover distance to get to you or close enough that you can go about neutralizing his bladed tool.

 

[MJS]

Demonstration of why using two hands to disarm can be dangerous.

Part 1

Part 2

What are your thoughts? Has anyone seen a 2 hand disarm fast enough to work? Can you post a YouTube link of an efficient knife disarm?

Thanks.

(I still like some of the moves here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7mWBtaQ6xo&mode=related&search= )

Vic and Barry were both members here at one time. Certainly some great points. My Arnis instructor has us doing those passing drills that he was showing. The other hand is something that I think alot of people forget about and it was discussed in the clip you linked. The thing with the 2 hand grab, is once you grab and get control, you're still moving, not staying still. This clip is pretty good. Is it possible to get cut, punched, kicked, etc.? Of course. As Brian said, I don't want to use a video as a guide to whats going to work/not work. Here is another clip from Karl Tanswell. IMHO, I think that Karl has some great ideas.

Mike

 

[kaizasosei]

i say...act defensive the whole time until a true chance to grab is available. never try to attack the knife weilder too early or even get into counters until the weapon is under control.
it much easier defending if all you have to do is flick your wrist and touch the guy.
id want to keep my distance and remain highly alert, use any object possible to maintain the act of being defensive.
just my twocents...otherwise i agree with everyone especially i like the very informative and helpful list of tips.

j

 

[KenpoTex]

AFAIC, 90% of the knife-disarm techniques taught in the MA world are optimistic at best and suicidal at worst. If practicioners of these arts were to try their disarms against an opponent who was attacking with realistic attack energy and actually trying to stab/slash them (for example, the clip MJS posted from the Rich Dimitri seminar) not just feeding them the prescribed attack their technique would go down the crapper.

Yes, getting hit by the opponent's other hand is a concern, however the primary concern is NOT getting hit by the knife. As others have pointed out, in the clips from the original post, the defender was in the worst place he could be. He should have either broken contact, or "crashed" the attacker after getting the knife. From the attacker's perspective, it's gonna be hard to fight when you're getting pushed backwards and being blasted with knees and headbutts.

As someone else said, there is always a counter. There is not a technique in existence that is foolproof (unless you count a 12-gauge from 20 feet). If there were, that'd be all we'd need to learn, at least until someone came up with a way to defeat our perfect techniqe. There is always a risk or, dare I say it, a high probability of getting stabbed/slashed when you are forced to go empty-hand vs. knife. Anyone that says otherwise is an idiot. You may get lucky and take the other guy out without being injured yourself but I wouldn't count on it.

I personally feel that getting both hands on the knife arm in an effort to control the blade is the best way to avoid getting stabbed. Once that's accomplished, don't just stand there, ATTACK the other guy!!! I tell my students that their mindset in this type of situation should be such that they are willing to rip the other guys throat out with their teeth if necessary. Whatever it takes, take the other guy out.

If you want some good empty hand vs. knife material, check out Richard Dimitri, Karl Transwell's S.T.A.B. system (these first two were the ones in the clips MJS posted), Jerry Wetzel's RED ZONE, and Marc Denny's "Dog Catcher" (Marc is one of the founding members of the Dog Brothers).

Just my $0.02

 

[Fang]

Very neat thread and all good points, in the early 90's whilst I was a teenager I thought I was a ninja and could pull off some stupid crap... One day my friend was sitting on the couch playing with a survival knife and I tried to catch the blade between my two hands lol, his immediate reaction was to retract the blade downwards to wrest control of it. Needless to say my technique didn't work and I got cuts on both hands... Those were the good times, me and him would always poke each other in the eye in one way or another whilst pretending we werent the one doing the poking. =p I got him back one day while hiking on a mountain during the night time... I really leaned some weight into a tree branch along the path and whoomp! It hit him square in the face, lol we had a special relationship him and I, injuring each other and what not. I'm sitting here laughing as if it just happened again rotflmao... =)

 

[zDom]

I personally feel that getting both hands on the knife arm in an effort to control the blade is the best way to avoid getting stabbed. Once that's accomplished, don't just stand there, ATTACK the other guy!!!

I agree. Getting punched is not as much of a concern for me as getting the knife out of his hand.

Of course, you don't just grab the arm and stand there.

Great post, btw, Tellner. Been stabbed once and it did feel just like a punch.

 

[Langenschwert]

If you're defending against a knife, you're going to get cut, 90% of the time. It doesn't really matter how good you are at "unarmed knife defence", since you might get stabbed before you even know there's a knife being used. In fact, many of the Medieval and Renaissance European manuals detailing knife defence start out saying something like "if he has drawn his dagger, and you have not drawn yours..." The assumption is that you have a dagger, and should have drawn it already, but there you are unarmed, and you have to deal with it. Don't worry about getting cut or not. Worry about living. Run like blazes if you can.

The Masters of Defence did indeed teach both one handed and two handed covers against dagger attacks. Neither is better than the other, it's a matter of what your opponent is up to. Get control of the weapon arm and break it (or at least immobilize it) at all costs, before he switches the knife to his other hand or counters you. You can get stitches later. You cannot be precious or pretty about it, or you will die. Knife fighting is dirty, messy business, and so are knife defences.

Best regards,

-Mark

 

[thardey]

Langenschwert brought up a good point about switching hands -- most defenses I've been taught are moot if they simply reach with their left hand and grab the knife. Then you're in a bad bad place.

 

[tellner]

That's why it's not a bad idea to study knife defense from someone who specializes in using a knife.

 

[Mr. E]

I personally feel that getting both hands on the knife arm in an effort to control the blade is the best way to avoid getting stabbed. Once that's accomplished, don't just stand there, ATTACK the other guy!!! I tell my students that their mindset in this type of situation should be such that they are willing to rip the other guys throat out with their teeth if necessary. Whatever it takes, take the other guy out.

I have to echo the praises for this post. If I have to insure that he will not stick me with a knife at the cost of getting hit with his other hand, I think I will take the punishment. But unlike the guy in the clip, I will not be just standing there and taking it.

Of course, that would not be my first option. But I assume that things will not always go my way and that may be the best option in a bad situation.

And there are ways of holding onto an arm while protecting yourself from the other limbs.

 

[arnisador]

Demonstration of why using two hands to disarm can be dangerous.

Part 1

Part 2

I have to disagree....if someone is capable of pulling off the counters in Part 2, he's also capable of plucking off the arm if you grab with just one hand. I prefer both hands on the wheel. Look down to present the crown of the head to the punch.

Mind you, the palusut technique in Part 1 is great, and I taught it this weekend at the WMAA Camp...but the when you actually get to grabbing the arm, I like two hands.

(I still like some of the moves here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7mWBtaQ6xo&mode=related&search= )

Again I must disagree...many of those look unsafe to me.