Why doesn't boxing, wrestling, and most Western fighting sports suffer from the Mcdojo phenomenon?

[Steve]

I like your point. I'd suggest BJJ probably isn't the analog to boxing in this, though, because BJJ competition seems to heavily favor ground play. Something that has a higher penalty on being taken down might be better at developing anti-takedown. Judo seems like maybe more suited, though MMA is definitely offering more incentive to stay the heck off the ground if you're not great there.

So, screw BJJ. Do MMA.

Every BJJ match in a competition starts standing. The big difference is that you aren't saved by the rules if you're taken down. If you want to get up, you have to get yourself up. The ref won't stop the match and allow you to safely return to your feet.

In judo (and in fact, in MMA), if you can stall for a bit, the ref will separate the competitors and allow both to safely return to their feet, fix their hair, catch their breath, and then resume. In BJJ, if you get taken down, you're on your own. That, in my opinion, is about as much of a penalty as one can get. I mean, what more do you have in mind?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Every BJJ match in a competition starts standing. The big difference is that you aren't saved by the rules if you're taken down. If you want to get up, you have to get yourself up. The ref won't stop the match and allow you to safely return to your feet.

In judo (and in fact, in MMA), if you can stall for a bit, the ref will separate the competitors and allow both to safely return to their feet, fix their hair, catch their breath, and then resume. In BJJ, if you get taken down, you're on your own. That, in my opinion, is about as much of a penalty as one can get. I mean, what more do you have in mind?

My thinking was that BJJ prefers to play on the ground, so there's not really a penalty for being there - it's just moving to the main event. Judo penalizes primarily around being taken down. And, of course, in MMA the other guy just might hit you a bit while you're down there. It's all pretty arguable, though.

 

[lklawson]

The ground training I've had is about breaking contact and getting up.

Good luck with that.

 

[Steve]

My thinking was that BJJ prefers to play on the ground, so there's not really a penalty for being there - it's just moving to the main event. Judo penalizes primarily around being taken down. And, of course, in MMA the other guy just might hit you a bit while you're down there. It's all pretty arguable, though.

I don't think it's about preference. Rather, it's about preparation encouraged by the ruleset.

Think about it like this. In Judo, if you take me down and pursue a submission, you might win. But I know that I will be rewarded with an orderly reset if I can just stall for a few seconds. So, it's actually more accurate to say that Judo penalizes the take down, because that's where the action is. And so, in Judo, I focus most of my preparation and skill development in the area where I am most at risk. I know I have to fend for myself in the take down, but if I can avoid the ippon on a throw and stall, I'm rewarded, not penalized. The situation is similar in MMA. If you can stall the action long enough, even in a compromised position, you will be allowed to reset.

In BJJ, conversely, if you're taken down, not only do you lose points, you have to fend for yourself. And knowing that you will not be saved by the referee, you will be prepared. If you want to break contact and get up, there is nothing in the BJJ ruleset that prohibits you from doing that, provided you aren't fleeing combat.

In this way, the ruleset encourages skill development. You prepare for those areas where you are most at risk. And so, the person best prepared to compete in the most diverse rulesets will be the best prepared overall.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I don't know whether or not I've stated this before in another thread, but I've never understood why anyone would sign up for "cardio kickboxing" or anything similar. Even if physical fitness is your main goal, the intensity of the training will be the same in an actual martial arts studio. Seems to be a more efficient use of one's time and money to sign up for actual martial arts training, so that at least actually learning how to fight can be a byproduct of the training.

I had the same opinion as you for a long while, but I've come up with a couple reasons for why someone may want it.

1: The biggest one IMO-it's cheaper. At least in the gym that I looked at, it seems to be a lot cheaper, which makes sense if you're paying someone to give you a workout and not teach you a skill.
2: Those classes tend to be mostly women, while actual kickboxing/boxing classes skew towards men. Women probably feel more comfortable in a class with women then men. Not saying if that's right/wrong/something should be done, or anything like that, just stating that's true for a majority of women.
3: Some people don't like to be punched, or have a fear of it. So they're not going to join something where that's a possibility.

And then the other side of it-if they don't want to pay to learn a skill, and don't want to actually fight, why do cardio kickboxing? This I don't have an answer for, besides that I know some people who do cardio kickboxing leave out the cardio when they tell people, and brag about it-so they get to feel tougher, get fit, and not have the (perceived) drawbacks from above.

 

[jmf552]

Good luck with that.

I think it's interesting that the vast majority of people don't study martial arts at all. Most martial artists give that huge group little notice. The people who get criticized by martial artists are the ones who do study, but not the art they consider the right one.

I also have to note that this site's motto: "Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community" has not proven to be true compared to others. I can handle that, but I think it's ironic.

 

[drop bear]

I didn't say I avoided ground training. I just said I tried BJJ and didn't care for it, because those guys want to stay on the ground. The ground training I've had is about breaking contact and getting up. If BJJ emphasized that, I'd be all in.

But I am just expressing my opinion that applies to me only. You make your choices, I'll make mine.

That system you described is called folk wrestling.

 

[Steve]

And then the other side of it-if they don't want to pay to learn a skill, and don't want to actually fight, why do cardio kickboxing?

The movements build strength and the cardio is good. Billy Blanks was a genius, but I think he should have listened to @Buka about the name Tae Bo.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

The movements build strength and the cardio is good. Billy Blanks was a genius, but I think he should have listened to @Buka about the name Tae Bo.

It does, but there are plenty of things that do that, besides cardio kickboxing. Rock climbing, training for obstacle courses, or just general working out. Keep in mind my point about them feeling tougher wasn't an insult, although re-reading I can see it that way. Of those 4 (and probably more) options, they've got to choose one, from an outside perspective doesn't really matter which. So if they like CKB cause it makes them feel tougher, they should go for it.

 

[Steve]

I think it's interesting that the vast majority of people don't study martial arts at all. Most martial artists give that huge group little notice. The people who get criticized by martial artists are the ones who do study, but not the art they consider the right one.

Speaking just for myself, I don't begrudge anyone learning or not learning whatever works for them. If you don't want to learn to fight, no problem. And I don't hold it against anyone who has been misled. Where I do have a problem is when people mislead others and teach things they're not competent to teach, or when they kid themselves. So, if you don't want to learn groundfighting, no sweat. Just understand that you may have a hole in your game.

I also have to note that this site's motto: "Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community" has not proven to be true compared to others. I can handle that, but I think it's ironic.

I look at it as an aspirational statement more than an observational statement.

 

[Steve]

It does, but there are plenty of things that do that, besides cardio kickboxing. Rock climbing, training for obstacle courses, or just general working out. Keep in mind my point about them feeling tougher wasn't an insult, although re-reading I can see it that way. Of those 4 (and probably more) options, they've got to choose one, from an outside perspective doesn't really matter which. So if they like CKB cause it makes them feel tougher, they should go for it.

Totally, and I'm not arguing. I get your point. My own opinion is that it's about the goal. If the goal is to learn to fight, rock climbing won't work any better than cardio kickboxing. But if the goal is to be strong and fit, both can work as well as MMA.

 

[dvcochran]

I've only heard of cardio kickboxing, but not a Western boxing version of this. If people are going to places like this to learn how to fight, when the gym is clearly marketing itself as a fitness/cardio studio, then calling the place a "McDojo" implies that it's the gym's fault that people are signing up for memberships for the wrong reasons.

I don't know whether or not I've stated this before in another thread, but I've never understood why anyone would sign up for "cardio kickboxing" or anything similar. Even if physical fitness is your main goal, the intensity of the training will be the same in an actual martial arts studio. Seems to be a more efficient use of one's time and money to sign up for actual martial arts training, so that at least actually learning how to fight can be a byproduct of the training.

It is for people who want the fitness level without the contact.

 

[jmf552]

Speaking just for myself, I don't begrudge anyone learning or not learning whatever works for them. If you don't want to learn to fight, no problem. And I don't hold it against anyone who has been misled. Where I do have a problem is when people mislead others and teach things they're not competent to teach, or when they kid themselves. So, if you don't want to learn groundfighting, no sweat. Just understand that you may have a hole in your game.

Everyone has holes in their game. That's why we don't stop training. And again, I am not against ground fighting. I just didn't care for the BJJ classes I took, but I like the school's Muay Thai program, so I stay there.

 

[jmf552]

That system you described is called folk wrestling.

You got that wrong. I did do a little of that in high school, many decades ago. What I learned about ground fighting was from a dedicated self defense program that was not related to any traditional martial art.

 

[Steve]

Everyone has holes in their game.

Yup. It's about minimizing blind spots. It's okay to have holes in your game, if you're aware of them and okay with them. It's thinking you're good at things that you are not actually good at... that can get you into trouble.

 

[geezer]

I also have to note that this site's motto: "Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community" has not proven to be true compared to others. I can handle that, but I think it's ironic.

I think this place is pretty friendly, but then I try to come here with a friendly attitude and defer to those who know more than I. That way when somebody posts a really rude response, they end up looking like a jerk.

On the other hand you can respond with irritation like you did when you posted...

Let me dumb it down for you: You do you, I'll do me.

...and people might think you're the jerk. I know I did ....which is a shame because unlike the folks you are debating with, I thought you made some good points.

For example, you stated you don't really like arts where you go to the ground and stay there. I get that. Wing Chun has been my core art for a long time. And since I've gotten older I really don't enjoy being on the ground so much, so I when it goes to the ground, like you, I focus more on escape and recovery to stand-up instead of pursuing the ground game.

But when I take that position, I also get some flack. And if I use the term "anti-grappling", boy! will I get some flack. I had to purge that term from my vocabulary!

 

[drop bear]

You got that wrong. I did do a little of that in high school, many decades ago. What I learned about ground fighting was from a dedicated self defense program that was not related to any traditional martial art.

Was it SCARS?

 

[jmf552]

Was it SCARS?

No, never heard of that. It was a course called Impact Self Defense. It used attackers in full padded suits. You went at them full contact, no targets off limits. There was a whole ground fighting segment of it. I took a resident long weekend course in it and it was very intense.

 

[Hanzou]

I didn't say I avoided ground training. I just said I tried BJJ and didn't care for it, because those guys want to stay on the ground. The ground training I've had is about breaking contact and getting up. If BJJ emphasized that, I'd be all in.

But I am just expressing my opinion that applies to me only. You make your choices, I'll make mine.

Except that isn't what you said. You said that while you were rolling on the ground you believed that it was ultimately pointless because you could simply punch, kick, or do some dirty tricks to get out of it.

 

[jmf552]

I think this place is pretty friendly, but then I try to come here with a friendly attitude and defer to those who know more than I. That way when somebody posts a really rude response, they end up looking like a jerk.

On the other hand you can respond with irritation like you did when you posted...

...and people might think you're the jerk. I know I did ....which is a shame because unlike the folks you are debating with, I thought you made some good points.

For example, you stated you don't really like arts where you go to the ground and stay there. I get that. Wing Chun has been my core art for a long time. And since I've gotten older I really don't enjoy being on the ground so much, so I when it goes to the ground, like you, I focus more on escape and recovery to stand-up instead of pursuing the ground game.

But when I take that position, I also get some flack. And if I use the term "anti-grappling", boy! will I get some flack. I had to purge that term from my vocabulary!

Yeah, when someone goes out of the way to irritate me, I get irritated. I'm funny like that.

As to the BJJ guys, they are pretty dogmatic. Somebody comes along and has some success with an art and people start to worship it. It usually has to do with what people see in sports, TV and movies. There was Karate' back in the day, then Kung Fu (like that was just one thing!), then whatever Bruce Lee was doing. Krav Maga and BJJ are having their day. In ten years, it will be something else. I am noticing in UFC, which seems to be everyone's yardstick, the grapplers are still in there, but the punchers are making a pretty good show too. Even some Wing Chun with Anderson Silva. Now there is "folk wrestling" like Kabib giving the BJJ guys a run for their money.

I think that is all interesting, but I am more concerned about my situation, my strategy and my capabilities. I am not a UFC fighter and never will be. What is good for them, the superb athletes they are, may not be good for an old guy like me. Like Bruce Lee said, "I don't fear the man who knows 10,000 kicks, but the man who knows one kick he has practiced 10,000 times. Styles don't get into fights, people do.