Why doesn't boxing, wrestling, and most Western fighting sports suffer from the Mcdojo phenomenon?

[lklawson]

Sakuraba was awarded an honorary black belt in BJJ, which he admits, he never learned how to tie. Kabib is a black belt in Judo and a Master in Sambo. He is a white belt in BJJ. An art doesn't get to claim someone just because they have walked in one of their schools. They are both wrestlers, plain and simple.

Don't worry, I won't be back here. I have found another martial arts forum that seems much more open minded and less full of BS.

Well, Bye!

Say hi to the guys at MAP for me. I'm there on rare occasion too.

 

[Hanzou]

Sakuraba was awarded an honorary black belt in BJJ, which he admits, he never learned how to tie.

Because he practiced in no-gi. 10th planet JJ guys have the same problem.

Kabib is a black belt in Judo and a Master in Sambo. He is a white belt in BJJ. An art doesn't get to claim someone just because they have walked in one of their schools. They are both wrestlers, plain and simple.

Practicing martial art =/= Martial Art claiming someone

Don't worry, I won't be back here. I have found another martial arts forum that seems much more open minded and less full of BS.

Well, Bye!

 

[drop bear]

Sakuraba was awarded an honorary black belt in BJJ, which he admits, he never learned how to tie. Kabib is a black belt in Judo and a Master in Sambo. He is a white belt in BJJ. An art doesn't get to claim someone just because they have walked in one of their schools. They are both wrestlers, plain and simple.

Yeah. But we are still discussing guys with good foundational grappling. Vs advocating what is probably terrible grappling.

If the argument is that kabib could effectively use the titty twister in a grappling match. I would agree.

If the argument is that someone without the foundation can use it instead of grappling. I don't think that is the case.

There are things you should be doing in grappling and things you shouldn't. And this isn't dependent on whether you train street or sport or stand up or striking.

The argument isn't about eye gouging a guy.

It is about doing it in a way that doesn't really work.

Now the question becomes. How do I know it doesn't work?

And the answer is it doesn't work until someone can show it does. ( Which can be argued philosophically but from a practical stand point is the best practice)

 

[drop bear]

Sakuraba was awarded an honorary black belt in BJJ, which he admits, he never learned how to tie. Kabib is a black belt in Judo and a Master in Sambo. He is a white belt in BJJ. An art doesn't get to claim someone just because they have walked in one of their schools. They are both wrestlers, plain and simple.

Don't worry, I won't be back here. I have found another martial arts forum that seems much more open minded and less full of BS.

Well, Bye!

Sorry. The other major point here is. Sakuraba or kabib could enter BJJ tournaments at a black belt level and smoke people.

Now this is important if you are going grapple that your skills are transferable.

If street system could go to clubs that grapple and just stand up. That would be a different discussion.

 

[Hanzou]

Sorry. The other major point here is. Sakuraba or kabib could enter BJJ tournaments at a black belt level and smoke people.

Now this is important if you are going grapple that your skills are transferable.

If street system could go to clubs that grapple and just stand up. That would be a different discussion.

But he made a really dumb point to begin with. Again, it's like MA bingo from 1995; The rivalry between the Gracies and Sakuraba is long over, and the Gracies no longer have hegemony over BJJ, nor are viewed as some sort of superheroes. Neither the Gracies or Sakuraba are significant factors in modern grappling. We're dealing with an entirely new generation of BJJ practitioners who view Sakuraba as a hero BECAUSE he beat the Gracies repeatedly, and don't take what the Gracies say or do seriously. Heck, there's guys who wear Sakuraba rashguards to Royce seminars just to see if it'll piss him off.

 

[Steve]

Sakuraba was awarded an honorary black belt in BJJ, which he admits, he never learned how to tie. Kabib is a black belt in Judo and a Master in Sambo. He is a white belt in BJJ. An art doesn't get to claim someone just because they have walked in one of their schools. They are both wrestlers, plain and simple.

Don't worry, I won't be back here. I have found another martial arts forum that seems much more open minded and less full of BS.

Well, Bye!

Bummer.

 

[WaterGal]

You don't know what I learned or what my experience is. You weren't there. I have over 25 years studying the arts, including Judo, Japanese Jiu-Jitsu, Karate', Krav Maga and yes, a little BJJ. I know I don't know it all, I doubt anyone does, but I know what I learned and I know I can use it.

I'm trying to be rude, but I can only imagine that your BJJ teacher also only knew a little BJJ. I'm hardly a BJJ expert (5 years on and off, but still a white belt), but if you have someone in an effective mount or guard, they are not going to be able to kick you or do "dirty tricks".

 

[Buka]

But he made a really dumb point to begin with. Again, it's like MA bingo from 1995; The rivalry between the Gracies and Sakuraba is long over, and the Gracies no longer have hegemony over BJJ, nor are viewed as some sort of superheroes. Neither the Gracies or Sakuraba are significant factors in modern grappling. We're dealing with an entirely new generation of BJJ practitioners who view Sakuraba as a hero BECAUSE he beat the Gracies repeatedly, and don't take what the Gracies say or do seriously. Heck, there's guys who wear Sakuraba rashguards to Royce seminars just to see if it'll piss him off.

Hegemony....what a great word.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

BJJ is not the center of the martial arts universe. Not even the ground fighting universe. Ask Kazushi Sakuraba or Kabib Nurmagomedov. BJJ guys clearly don't know everything about grappling.

Ah, Sakuraba and Khabib... a couple of great BJJ practitioners, IMO.

Steve can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think he's trying to claim that Sakuraba or Khabib achieved their skills through studying BJJ. What he might be getting at is the long tradition within BJJ where we will steal anything that works, so long as it's not red hot or nailed down. (If we can pry it up, it wasn't really nailed down.)

In other words, as soon as Sakuraba and Khabib demonstrated their dominant skills, a good number of BJJ practitioners started studying what they do and figuring out how to absorb their knowledge and techniques into the art of BJJ.

Hmm ... maybe I should get some t-shirts printed up: "BJJ - stealing from the best is what we do."

 

[Steve]

Steve can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think he's trying to claim that Sakuraba or Khabib achieved their skills through studying BJJ. What he might be getting at is the long tradition within BJJ where we will steal anything that works, so long as it's not red hot or nailed down. (If we can pry it up, it wasn't really nailed down.)

In other words, as soon as Sakuraba and Khabib demonstrated their dominant skills, a good number of BJJ practitioners started studying what they do and figuring out how to absorb their knowledge and techniques into the art of BJJ.

Hmm ... maybe I should get some t-shirts printed up: "BJJ - stealing from the best is what we do."

Totally. And it's more than just a style. It's about intellectual curiosity and an openness to being shown a better way. MMA's like that, too.

And for what it's worth, I'm pretty sure if Khabib paid his $40 for an IBJJF membership, they'd let him enter any competition he wants. And if he wins gold at the Mundials or the Pan Ams black belt division, I don't think anyone would suggest he didn't use BJJ.

Point is, he may not want to, but that's him... not the art (and by extension, the underlying openness and curiosity) of BJJ.

Now, to be clear, if he's a jerk, he may not find too many schools to train in... but that's different.

 

[Hanzou]

Steve can correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think he's trying to claim that Sakuraba or Khabib achieved their skills through studying BJJ. What he might be getting at is the long tradition within BJJ where we will steal anything that works, so long as it's not red hot or nailed down. (If we can pry it up, it wasn't really nailed down.)

In other words, as soon as Sakuraba and Khabib demonstrated their dominant skills, a good number of BJJ practitioners started studying what they do and figuring out how to absorb their knowledge and techniques into the art of BJJ.

Hmm ... maybe I should get some t-shirts printed up: "BJJ - stealing from the best is what we do."

And that's why BJJ is the center of the grappling galaxy. It's not because BJJ is the greatest martial art ever, it's because grapplers from all stripes congregate into that mass and form of singularity of grappling that competing systems simply can't escape. It's like the grappling version of a black hole, and it really pisses off a lot of people trying to create a grappling system free of BJJ's orbit.

Catch Wrestling being a prime example.

 

[drop bear]

Totally. And it's more than just a style. It's about intellectual curiosity and an openness to being shown a better way. MMA's like that, too.

And for what it's worth, I'm pretty sure if Khabib paid his $40 for an IBJJF membership, they'd let him enter any competition he wants. And if he wins gold at the Mundials or the Pan Ams black belt division, I don't think anyone would suggest he didn't use BJJ.

Point is, he may not want to, but that's him... not the art (and by extension, the underlying openness and curiosity) of BJJ.

Now, to be clear, if he's a jerk, he may not find too many schools to train in... but that's different.

Exept for the whole issue of affiliation fees. And garbage that goes on.

 

[Buka]

Hmm ... maybe I should get some t-shirts printed up: "BJJ - stealing from the best is what we do."

Yeah, but then you would be an honorary member of American Karate. We been stealing dat stuff since 1972.
And still are.

 

[punisher73]

I've only heard of cardio kickboxing, but not a Western boxing version of this. If people are going to places like this to learn how to fight, when the gym is clearly marketing itself as a fitness/cardio studio, then calling the place a "McDojo" implies that it's the gym's fault that people are signing up for memberships for the wrong reasons.

I don't know whether or not I've stated this before in another thread, but I've never understood why anyone would sign up for "cardio kickboxing" or anything similar. Even if physical fitness is your main goal, the intensity of the training will be the same in an actual martial arts studio. Seems to be a more efficient use of one's time and money to sign up for actual martial arts training, so that at least actually learning how to fight can be a byproduct of the training.

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The popular one in our area.

Many people join martial arts schools that don't focus on fighting and focus on the other reasons that people enjoy doing physical activities. There are schools that don't focus on just the fighting aspect of a martial art. Some schools exist for the sports aspect (TKD for example), they may promote the self-discipline you learn, they may use the martial art as a vehicle for more self-improvement/spiritual reasons (aikido for example). Even if a school is clear on their goals, people assume that they are learning fighting skills.

If you are young enough to remember, there was a big "to do" with Tae Bo because it was designed as a fitness program and people thought they were also learning how to fight.

So, I am not saying that the gym/school is to blame. I am talking about the tendency for people to associate an activity with it purpose even though the purpose of THEIR activity isn't the same. For example, people think they are learning how to box because they are "boxing" when the activity is using boxing for fitness and they aren't learning the skills to actually employ it. It is kind of a "mcdojo consumer" activity.

 

[caped crusader]

back to the thread topic, most arts like boxing /wrestling you have to get on the mat and really fight same with boxing. These western arts are more competition orientated in that the Gym training say the Boxer will keep it hard and real because they value their reputation over making big bucks. This is definitely the case in London or any UK Boxing Gym.
I think in the US too with Boxing and even College wrestling. Bottom line is no belts to wear just you can do it or you get your *** whooped !
whooped i say !!

 

[caped crusader]

I think the Black belt thing has a lot to do with it. everyone wants one..but quality ? no problem pay the guy to help you. Bingo a two or three year black belt...LOL Honestly met some really crap Dan grades.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think the Black belt thing has a lot to do with it. everyone wants one..but quality ? no problem pay the guy to help you. Bingo a two or three year black belt...LOL Honestly met some really crap Dan grades.

I think a lot of that - at least for some folks I've heard complain about BB quality - comes down to having a specific expectation about what BB rank means, when many groups don't have that same expectation. We tend to look at the color of the belt as having a specific meaning, but it really only has whatever meaning a given group assigns it.

I think a lot of that was propogated in the US by the sudden influx of BB's after WWII, many of whom marketed on some mythology, which was followed by a long period of movies that furthered the stereotype.

 

[Steve]

I think a lot of that - at least for some folks I've heard complain about BB quality - comes down to having a specific expectation about what BB rank means, when many groups don't have that same expectation. We tend to look at the color of the belt as having a specific meaning, but it really only has whatever meaning a given group assigns it.

I think a lot of that was propogated in the US by the sudden influx of BB's after WWII, many of whom marketed on some mythology, which was followed by a long period of movies that furthered the stereotype.

If you listen to some of the old timers around here, there was a functional difference between the black belts circa WWII and now. While that may also be a myth propagated since then, it's also possible that things were actually different.

Reminds me of french fries. They actually WERE better in the 70s and 80s.

 

[Urban Trekker]

I think a lot of that - at least for some folks I've heard complain about BB quality - comes down to having a specific expectation about what BB rank means, when many groups don't have that same expectation. We tend to look at the color of the belt as having a specific meaning, but it really only has whatever meaning a given group assigns it.

I think a lot of that was propogated in the US by the sudden influx of BB's after WWII, many of whom marketed on some mythology, which was followed by a long period of movies that furthered the stereotype.

And that ambiguity on the meaning of the black belt is part of what enables bullshido in the eastern arts. I think the lack of belts or other insignia helps keep "dim mak" and "no touch knockouts" out of boxing and wrestling. Ultimately, I think the spectator sport aspect of these arts play the largest role, but the lack of belts doesn't hurt either.

 

[Flying Crane]

I am noticing in UFC, which seems to be everyone's yardstick…

Not mine. Never was, never will be.