Why did Boxing Survive to be the most popular fighting sport in the world despite mass deaths in World War 1 unlike other Western styles like Savate?

[lklawson]

View attachment 28260
This needs to be a thing today.

Also know as "The Turk's Head." Photos also from the section of the cycling book that this photo came from popped up in several different publications of the time. Apparently it was considered different and entertaining enough to be very newsworthy with reports showing up in many periodicals such as "Womanhood" and "The Strand." Even Baden-Powell's daughter was doing it. She referred to the general exercises as "gymkhana" (ims).

A cycling buddy of mine was so interested in this that he tracked down a republication of the original book just so that he could have this section.

On a related note, I found out that in the early days of WWI, the Brits had a Bicycle Regiment, equipped with Enfield carbines attached to their bikes who practiced cutting the turks head, lemon cutting, ring and tent-pegging, and essentially doing all the cav drills on bicycle; the 26th Middlesex Cyclists.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

Yes. If you can find any of the political cartoons from the time period illustrating "Suffragette Ju Jitsu" it's worth it. Some of them are quite funny.

This one is probably the most famous but there are others out there.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Oily Dragon]

The Bartitsu Compendium? You don't say. Have you read it? Did you notice the Acknowledgements page?

View attachment 28259

Yes, yes, yes, and no. Nobody reads Acknowledgement pages.

I have though read every Holmes story, which is how I caught your spelling gaffe.

 

[lklawson]

Yes, yes, yes, and no. Nobody reads Acknowledgement pages.

The Acknowledgement page in the Bartitsu Compendium, Volume II is nearly identical.

I have though read every Holmes story, which is how I caught your spelling gaffe.

You assume it was a gaffe and not a deliberate decision to avoid additional confusion. The dropped 't' is well known in the Bartitsu Community, as is documented in the afore referenced Acknowledgements page. We all have our pet theories as to why.

It gets more confusing when you reference the U.S. edition.

 

[Oily Dragon]

The Acknowledgement page in the Bartitsu Compendium, Volume II is nearly identical.


You assume it was a gaffe and not a deliberate decision to avoid additional confusion. The dropped 't' is well known in the Bartitsu Community, as is documented in the afore referenced Acknowledgements page. We all have our pet theories as to why.

It gets more confusing when you reference the U.S. edition.

That's really funny.

 

[lklawson]

That's really funny.

What is?

 

[Oily Dragon]

What is?

What you said about purposely changing the spelling to Doyle's. It's so Holmesy.

 

[Tez3]

Well, close.

Baritsu was Holmes' art. One T. It was based on this real one, which some suffragettes did train.

Though to be fair, many or most Suffragettes were pacifists and trained no martial arts, but fought with rhetoric (which I guess is a type of martial art anyway).

Bartitsu - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Some suffragettes were pacifist but not many hence the scuffles with the police, the criminal damage an d other acts of violence.
Every election we have I send a silent prayer of thanks to those women fighting for our rights.

 

[Tez3]

Also know as "The Turk's Head." Photos also from the section of the cycling book that this photo came from popped up in several different publications of the time. Apparently it was considered different and entertaining enough to be very newsworthy with reports showing up in many periodicals such as "Womanhood" and "The Strand." Even Baden-Powell's daughter was doing it. She referred to the general exercises as "gymkhana" (ims).

A cycling buddy of mine was so interested in this that he tracked down a republication of the original book just so that he could have this section.

On a related note, I found out that in the early days of WWI, the Brits had a Bicycle Regiment, equipped with Enfield carbines attached to their bikes who practiced cutting the turks head, lemon cutting, ring and tent-pegging, and essentially doing all the cav drills on bicycle; the 26th Middlesex Cyclists.

View attachment 28261

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

It wasn't Baden-Powell's daughter but his sister Agnes, a truly remarkable woman who was actually the founder of the Girl Guides. I'm a member of the Agnes Baden-Powell Appreciation Society and a Girl Guide leader, we aim to educate people on the amazing Agnes who was overlooked when her brother married Olave.

 

[Tez3]

The Bartitsu Compendium? You don't say. Have you read it? Did you notice the Acknowledgements page?

View attachment 28259

I suspect he's one of those that think Holmes was real.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Some suffragettes were pacifist but not many hence the scuffles with the police, the criminal damage an d other acts of violence.
Every election we have I send a silent prayer of thanks to those women fighting for our rights.

You're thinking of UK suffragettes.

I was referring to the earlier American movement, Senica Falls Convention in the mid 19th century and later, which was nonviolent and mostly involved organized picketing, marching, and hunger strikes.

Unfortunately, Britain still hasn't been able to rid itself of it's royal houses, hence the need for domestic female terrorism to win the right to vote.

Women's suffrage in the United States - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Oily Dragon]

I suspect he's one of those that think Holmes was real.

I just happened to know "Baritsu" is fake and Bartitsu is real.

Nobody else caught that either, unless they had the secret insider knowledge, handshake, etc.

And nobody, and I mean nobody, ever reads Acknowledgement pages unless they are in them.

 

[lklawson]

It wasn't Baden-Powell's daughter but his sister Agnes, a truly remarkable woman who was actually the founder of the Girl Guides.

Mea culpa.

I'm a member of the Agnes Baden-Powell Appreciation Society and a Girl Guide leader, we aim to educate people on the amazing Agnes who was overlooked when her brother married Olave.

"There is no longer the great craze for bicycling which used to prevail. Among the greatest enthusiasts for performing on the wheel was Miss Baden-Powell, at a time when bicycle gymkhanas and races were all the rage. many prizes in those contests fell to her share, and the delights of racing while kneeling on the saddle, or riding on the handle-bars, or standing on one peddle only, were among the lighter efforts of these Amazons of the wheel. In lemon cutting and tilting at the ring Miss Baden-Powell carried off many a prize,..."
-Girl Guide, Home Notes (as referenced in The First Girl Guide: The Story of Agnes Baden-Powell, Helen D. Gardner, Amberley Publishing Limited, Jul 15, 2010)

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[lklawson]

I just happened to know "Baritsu" is fake and Bartitsu is real.

Except it's not that simple and you're making a grand assumption.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Except it's not that simple and you're making a grand assumption.

What's the assumption? One is a fake word in fiction, the other is a real martial art.

If it's a typo, that's one thing. Is there some grand Mason-like conspiracy the rest of us don't know? Did Doyle purposely change it? Was it a mistake?

You're in the book (well, the Acknowledge ments at least) so I trust your conclusions.

 

[lklawson]

You're thinking of UK suffragettes.

I was referring to the earlier American movement, Senica Falls Convention in the mid 19th century and later, which was nonviolent and mostly involved organized picketing, marching, and hunger strikes.

Unfortunately, Britain still hasn't been able to rid itself of it's royal houses, hence the need for domestic female terrorism to win the right to vote.

Women's suffrage in the United States - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Of course she was thinking of the British Sufragettes. Both the fictional Holmes and the real Bartitsu/Baritsu are British and you made no context distinction. Because British Suffragettes were contemporary to the rise Ju Jitsu in England it is a perfectly logical connection.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Of course she was thinking of the British Sufragettes. Both the fictional Holmes and the real Bartitsu/Baritsu are British and you made no context distinction. Because British Suffragettes were contemporary to the rise Ju Jitsu in England it is a perfectly logical connection.

Well I don't read minds.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Of course she was thinking of the British Sufragettes. Both the fictional Holmes and the real Bartitsu/Baritsu are British and you made no context distinction. Because British Suffragettes were contemporary to the rise Ju Jitsu in England it is a perfectly logical connection.

Doyle specifically referred to Baritsu as "Japanese wrestling" and most likely had no practical knowledge of actual Bartitsu.

It was a deux ex machina to bring Holmes back from the dead.

But I'm glad you're keeping its memory alive.

 

[lklawson]

What's the assumption? One is a fake word in fiction, the other is a real martial art.

That Conan Doyle deliberately dropped the extra 't' from the name. There's little evidence one way or the other to support the thesis. It's just as likely that he made a typo. It is just as likely that Conan Doyle wrote it correctly and that his editor corrected the manuscript and he made the typo instead of Conan Doyle. It's also just as likely that it was neither a typo nor a deliberate alteration. At the time that Conan Doyle was writing the Adventure of the Empty House "bartitsu" was appearing in print a fair amount (including in some publications that he himself wrote for). It is entirely plausible that Conan Doyle just happened across the name while reading and simply mis-remembered the spelling. It should also be noted that a contemporary London newspaper also misspelled the name as "Baritsu" and Conan Doyle may have copied from that. Or it could easily have been deliberate, perhaps to avoid copyright infringement.

The point is, no one knows if Conan Doyle intended to write a fictional martial art named "Baritsu" or if he intended to use "Bartitsu" and some mistake was made by someone, himself or another, dropping a 't'.

What is clear is that, whether the spelling difference was deliberate or not, Conan Doyle was certainly intentionally implying a link to the real life Bartitsu, 't' and all.

To say that "baritsu" is a "fake" is a little akin to saying that Baker Street is fake because there wasn't actually a 221B.

If it's a typo, that's one thing. Is there some grand Mason-like conspiracy the rest of us don't know? Did Doyle purposely change it? Was it a mistake?

You're in the book (well, the Acknowledge ments at least) so I trust your conclusions.

No one knows for sure. Conan Doyle was known to use real life events and places to spice his writings. He was also not above creating completely fictional and impossible references, such as the famous 221B Baker Street address. There is also a historian who makes a competent case that Conan Doyle was actually the creator of the Piltdown Hoax so it's not beyond the realm that Conan Doyle actually did indulge in an actual conspiracy from time to time.

 

[lklawson]

Well I don't read minds.

I'm assuming Tez doesn't either. And from your context of Bartitsu/baritsu & Holmes, British Sufragettes is the more logical connection than American.