Why doesn't boxing, wrestling, and most Western fighting sports suffer from the Mcdojo phenomenon?

[Hanzou]

Somebody comes along and has some success with an art and people start to worship it. It usually has to do with what people see in sports, TV and movies. There was Karate' back in the day, then Kung Fu (like that was just one thing!), then whatever Bruce Lee was doing. Krav Maga and BJJ are having their day. In ten years, it will be something else. I am noticing in UFC, which seems to be everyone's yardstick, the grapplers are still in there, but the punchers are making a pretty good show too. Even some Wing Chun with Anderson Silva. Now there is "folk wrestling" like Kabib giving the BJJ guys a run for their money.

Except, BJJ has been "having its day" for nearly 30 years. It's not based on movies, it's based on effectiveness (and a rather appealing MA culture). Pure and simple.

The Karate and Kung Fu phases ended because (as you stated), they were popularized by fiction. BJJ was popularized via an actual martial arts tournament.

 

[jmf552]

Except, BJJ has been "having its day" for nearly 30 years. It's not based on movies, it's based on effectiveness (and a rather appealing MA culture). Pure and simple.

The Karate and Kung Fu phases ended because (as you stated), they were popularized by fiction. BJJ was popularized via an actual martial arts tournament.

It had its day early on, but in the history of the UFC, 64% more fights have been decided by KO than submission. And not all the submissions have been by BJJ guys. There are wrestlers getting them too. So in the long run, BJJ has proven to be important, but not the dominant, art.

 

[geezer]

I think that is all interesting, but I am more concerned about my situation, my strategy and my capabilities. I am not a UFC fighter and never will be. What is good for them, the superb athletes they are, may not be good for an old guy like me. Like Bruce Lee said, "I don't fear the man who knows 10,000 kicks, but the man who knows one kick he has practiced 10,000 times....

OK. I can agree about 100% with what you said in the quote above. All that pretty much applies to me too.

As for responding to irritating remarks with irritation... what can I say? We're all human, right? But do yourself a favor and try not to take the bait!

 

[jmf552]

Except that isn't what you said. You said that while you were rolling on the ground you believed that it was ultimately pointless because you could simply punch, kick, or do some dirty tricks to get out of it.

And that is exactly what I learned when I studied ground fighting.

 

[Hanzou]

It had its day early on, but in the history of the UFC, 64% more fights have been decided by KO than submission. And not all the submissions have been by BJJ guys. There are wrestlers getting them too. So in the long run, BJJ has proven to be important, but not the dominant, art.

There's two major problems with your argument here;

1. While BJJ isn't "dominant" in MMA as a whole, it's dominant in its lane, which is submission grappling. Every MMA fighter has to know submission grappling to be competitive, so every fighter is learning BJJ on some level. Also you don't learn subs in wrestling, those wrestlers learn their subs from their BJJ coach (unless they're from Eastern Europe).

In addition, you still get high level BJJ practitioners who enter MMA and cause serious problems for their opponents because if you're fighting an elite BJJ practitioner you can't risk grappling with them because they will destroy you on the mat. This forces their opponents to have to avoid the take down the entire match, which can be difficult to do. Those situations showcase BJJ's continued importance in the MMA sphere.

2. BJJ is a popular martial art in its own right. While its success is linked to MMA, the vast majority of people practice the art in of itself.

The only way BJJ would lose its popularity is if another MA comes along and decisively beats its highest practitioners. However, that's unlikely to happen due to the nature of modern martial arts, and the way BJJ absorbs competing grappling systems. Again, you're comparing martial arts that were popularized via fiction, to a martial art that was popularized via reality. Hence why those other MA's popularity faded, and BJJ's popularity has endured.

On the other hand, I don't think Krav is doing all that hot these days. Why? Because it was popularized via the late 90's film Enough starring Jennifer Lopez.

 

[Hanzou]

And that is exactly what I learned when I studied ground fighting.

That isn't what you learned. That's what you assumed via inexperience.

 

[Hanzou]

OK. I can agree about 100% with what you said in the quote above. All that pretty much applies to me too.

As for responding to irritating remarks with irritation... what can I say? We're all human, right? But do yourself a favor and try not to take the bait!

Yeah, I'm not trying to "bait" anyone. @jmf552 is making inaccurate statements and they're merely being corrected.

 

[jmf552]

That isn't what you learned. That's what you assumed via inexperience.

You don't know what I learned or what my experience is. You weren't there. I have over 25 years studying the arts, including Judo, Japanese Jiu-Jitsu, Karate', Krav Maga and yes, a little BJJ. I know I don't know it all, I doubt anyone does, but I know what I learned and I know I can use it.

 

[Hanzou]

You don't know what I learned or what my experience is. You weren't there. I have over 25 years studying the arts, including Judo, Japanese Jiu-Jitsu, Karate', Krav Maga and yes, a little BJJ. I know I don't know it all, I doubt anyone does, but I know what I learned and I know I can use it.

I don't know what you learned or what your experience is, but I know BJJ. To say that the entire art can be nullified by strikes and "dirty tricks" is utter nonsense full stop.

 

[drop bear]

OK. I can agree about 100% with what you said in the quote above. All that pretty much applies to me too.

As for responding to irritating remarks with irritation... what can I say? We're all human, right? But do yourself a favor and try not to take the bait!

Wait a second. What elite level moves that require some sort of superior physicality do people think UFC fighters learn?

Here we go. Most common takedowns.

Fight Stats: Double Leg Is The Most Common MMA Takedown, Nurmagomedov Most Successful Takedown Artist

MMA Fight DB looked at over 2,072 trips and throws in 799 MMA fights to see what were the best takedowns for mixed martial arts (MMA). The top was the double leg takedown. It accounted for 37.4 percent of all takedowns recorded. In fact, the double leg accounted for more takedowns than …

www.bjjee.com

Most common submissions.

Most Common Submissions in MMA (Top 5)

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu has been a key part of MMA since the early UFC events. At UFC 1 in 1993, the BJJ legend Royce Gracie showed the world…

medium.com

 

[lklawson]

I think it's interesting that the vast majority of people don't study martial arts at all. Most martial artists give that huge group little notice.

Then you don't have a lot of experience or are looking in the wrong place. I tell folks all the time that they're not as trained or as ready as they think they are, particularly people in the firearms-for-self-defense community or women who want to/have taken a "Women's Self Defense Class." I used to try to be nice about it but that never worked. Now I'm a little bit more blunt. I usually try not to be deliberately insulting but I don't try to sugar coat it any more.

The people who get criticized by martial artists are the ones who do study, but not the art they consider the right one.

I assume here that you think I'm criticizing you for studying "the wrong martial art." If so, that's wrong. I'm criticizing you for thinking that the "ground training [you have] had is about breaking contact and getting up" will be effective at doing so. The only people I've ever seen who actually were able to make that plan work were people who put significant study into ground-grappling and not those who thought that it would be sufficient to merely train how to "break contact and get back up." For some reason the latter almost always dramatically underestimate how easy it is for even an untrained goober to cabbage on to them, drag them to the floor, and keep them there, while simultaneously over-estimating their own ability to prevent and then undo that process.

I also have to note that this site's motto: "Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community" has not proven to be true compared to others. I can handle that, but I think it's ironic.

Then it's not a big enough deal to mention, right?

 

[dvcochran]

I think it's interesting that the vast majority of people don't study martial arts at all. Most martial artists give that huge group little notice. The people who get criticized by martial artists are the ones who do study, but not the art they consider the right one.

I also have to note that this site's motto: "Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community" has not proven to be true compared to others. I can handle that, but I think it's ironic.

It is a friendly site for the most part. But jut like most all MA's it can get competitive at times. Disagreements happen and are frequently discussed to a resolution or at least consensus; sometimes with relish.
So don't let a disagreement with your personal opinion or personal experience offend you. One of the really, really cool things about this site is that you get opinion and experienced advise from people all over the world.

Being a site specific to one subject I feel most people consider it a forum for experts, people looking for expert advise, or people aspiring to become experts.

Sometimes jokers and trolls get on here and become a nuisance until they get bored or flushed out.
I do not believe you have been here long enough to see some of the downright ugly on here yet.

 

[lklawson]

It is a friendly site for the most part. But jut like most all MA's it can get competitive at times. Disagreements happen and are frequently discussed to a resolution or at least consensus; sometimes with relish.
So don't let a disagreement with your personal opinion or personal experience offend you. One of the really, really cool things about this site is that you get opinion and experienced advise from people all over the world.

As a friend of mine once said, "A herd of martial artists gets together and a fight breaks out; quelle surprise."

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[jmf552]

I don't know what you learned or what your experience is, but I know BJJ. To say that the entire art can be nullified by strikes and "dirty tricks" is utter nonsense full stop.

BJJ is not the center of the martial arts universe. Not even the ground fighting universe. Ask Kazushi Sakuraba or Kabib Nurmagomedov. BJJ guys clearly don't know everything about grappling. Don't get me wrong, it is a great martial art. But practitioners tend to think it is the be all and end all. It is not. So you knowing BJJ does not tell the whole story. BJJ doesn't allow the stuff I'm talking about. So how would you know?

 

[Hanzou]

It’s like we’re playing MA bingo from 1995.

BJJ is not the center of the martial arts universe.

Who said it was?

Not even the ground fighting universe. Ask Kazushi Sakuraba or Kabib Nurmagomedov.

Both of whom have studied and practiced BJJ themselves. That said, both of whom are also retired, and are no longer actively competing. Currently in the world of grappling, BJJ is very much the center of the grappling/ground fighting universe, and is dominated by BJJ exponents.

BJJ guys clearly don't know everything about grappling. Don't get me wrong, it is a great martial art. But practitioners tend to think it is the be all and end all. It is not. So you knowing BJJ does not tell the whole story. BJJ doesn't allow the stuff I'm talking about. So how would you know?

Except you were talking about BJJ specifically, and attributing falsehoods to that particular grappling system, not grappling in general. As for BJJ not allowing strikes, this again showcases your inexperience with the system. If you had stayed a bit longer, perhaps you would have been taught how to deal with people striking you while in a position. A grappler dealing with someone striking them while in a position or a hold is sort of the foundation of the system, but your initial training in BJJ is going to be about learning the basics.

You have to walk before you can run grasshopper.

 

[jmf552]

It’s like we’re playing MA bingo from 1995.


Who said it was?



Both of whom have studied and practiced BJJ themselves. That said, both of whom are also retired, and are no longer actively competing. Currently in the world of grappling, BJJ is very much the center of the grappling/ground fighting universe, and is dominated by BJJ exponents.



Except you were talking about BJJ specifically, and attributing falsehoods to that particular grappling system, not grappling in general. As for BJJ not allowing strikes, this again showcases your inexperience with the system. If you had stayed a bit longer, perhaps you would have been taught how to deal with people striking you while in a position. A grappler dealing with someone striking them while in a position or a hold is sort of the foundation of the system, but your initial training in BJJ is going to be about learning the basics.

You have to walk before you can run grasshopper.

Apparently one has to drink the Kool-aide also.

 

[Hanzou]

Apparently one has to drink the Kool-aide also.

Says the poster that thinks they can get out of side control with a nipple twist.

 

[Steve]

BJJ is not the center of the martial arts universe. Not even the ground fighting universe. Ask Kazushi Sakuraba or Kabib Nurmagomedov. BJJ guys clearly don't know everything about grappling. Don't get me wrong, it is a great martial art. But practitioners tend to think it is the be all and end all. It is not. So you knowing BJJ does not tell the whole story. BJJ doesn't allow the stuff I'm talking about. So how would you know?

Ah, Sakuraba and Khabib... a couple of great BJJ practitioners, IMO.

 

[jmf552]

Says the poster that thinks they can get out of side control with a nipple twist.

Never said anything like that. Now you are just making things up.

 

[jmf552]

Ah, Sakuraba and Khabib... a couple of great BJJ practitioners, IMO.

Sakuraba was awarded an honorary black belt in BJJ, which he admits, he never learned how to tie. Kabib is a black belt in Judo and a Master in Sambo. He is a white belt in BJJ. An art doesn't get to claim someone just because they have walked in one of their schools. They are both wrestlers, plain and simple.

Don't worry, I won't be back here. I have found another martial arts forum that seems much more open minded and less full of BS.

Well, Bye!