Why doesn't boxing, wrestling, and most Western fighting sports suffer from the Mcdojo phenomenon?

[Steve]

In a crane style though, would there not be a strong focus on balance and accuracy?
Would a tiger style not dedicate much of its training to strength? Or a mantis style focus on speed? Very true, we cannot directly imitate animals, we can only emulate them. But with that being said, is the instinct of very quickly and aggressively grabbing something not the same in a human as it is any other mammal?

Watch how two dogs growl at each other and then suddenly pounce, going into a mindless, disorganized brawl of grabbing and clawing. Then watch how two people having a verbal disagreement slowly walk toward each other, calm and relaxed, and then suddenly start throwing wild punches while simultaneously grabbing each other. You will see that it is pretty much the same thing.

This is why I believe in the following logic, which I have seen quite a lot on martial arts forums: when you train, do the techniques you train to do, but when you get into a fight with someone dangerous, just wail on the opponent like a maniac and hope for the best.

I love this scene from Fantastic Mr. Fox that exemplifies what you're talking about:

 

[Flying Crane]

In a crane style though, would there not be a strong focus on balance and accuracy?

No, not any more than anyone else. Those are useful traits, of course, but we don’t focus on them in any overly special way. Martial training ought to develop them in an appropriate way, regardless.

I have seen descriptions of the “five animals” in Chinese martial arts, and folk traditions, and there can be this kind of description that ascribes certain traits to the animal. That is all well and fine on an intellectual and theoretical level but i do not believe it translates directly into the animal styles, i spite of what some folks claim. But in my experience, in my particular Crane method (Tibetan) that has no bearing. We do not do special exercises for balance or accuracy outside of our regular martial training. Like I said, we punch and kick like all the rest.

Would a tiger style not dedicate much of its training to strength? Or a mantis style focus on speed?

I haven’t trained in them so I cannot say for certain. But if so, not really to copy or “become” the animal. I don’t know what specific traits Tiger method uses, other than the claw hand which is not unique to that method. Certainly a human cannot move like a tiger and cannot develop the strength of a tiger. A smaller person can practice tiger, one does not need to be big and strong to do tiger. So that isn’t it.

Very true, we cannot directly imitate animals, we can only emulate them. But with that being said, is the instinct of very quickly and aggressively grabbing something not the same in a human as it is any other mammal?

Perhaps. But humans have developed methodologies as well as rule sets that may apply under certain circumstances. Watching animals fight can have things in common with human wrestling, but it is certainly not the same thing. When chimpanzees fight with killing intent, they bite, rip, tear, pound and smash along with that grabbing and “grappling”. It looks nothing like a BJJ match, for example, and it ranges all across the forest as the combatants move and engage and disengage and engage again.

Watch how two dogs growl at each other and then suddenly pounce, going into a mindless, disorganized brawl of grabbing and clawing. Then watch how two people having a verbal disagreement slowly walk toward each other, calm and relaxed, and then suddenly start throwing wild punches while simultaneously grabbing each other. You will see that it is pretty much the same thing.

Mm…kind of. I see what you are saying but I don’t really agree that it is the same thing.

This is why I believe in the following logic, which I have seen quite a lot on martial arts forums: when you train, do the techniques you train to do, but when you get into a fight with someone dangerous, just wail on the opponent like a maniac and hope for the best.

well, I believe that in the chaos of real combat, the quality and cleanness of your technique will degrade rapidly. That is why we practice as perfectly as we can, so that when it degrades, there is still enough integrity to be effective.

 

[angelariz]

I was watching The Karate Kid series and indeed the film series portray just how abusive, fraudulent, and outright inaccurate teaachings of rival McDojos Miyagi and Daniel faces. Don't even get me started how they take the rival school wars to ridiculous extent that it is already flatout entering illegal territory.

The SCARIEST and WORST part is some of the rival schools they faced are genuine winners of local tournaments and at least got the physical training aspect correct in many way s(although still dumbed down in that they lacked many components of classical training like weight lifting and killing techniques).

But this inspires me to ask. Why hadn't Western sports fighting arts-in particular boxing and wrestling- hadn't been plaqued with the "McDojo" phenomenon?

I mean in the 3rd Karate Kid Movie, Terry Silver was intentionally getting Daniel hurt by having him hit wooden planks. Although not necessarily McDojo teaching as real Asian martial arts does have this training of sorts and Terry himself easily demonstrated his technique in front of Daniel where he crushed the wooden planks and boards with single blows, Terry forced him into this phrase of martial arts training WITHOUT properly conditioning him first and teaching him proper mechanics. Now I'll grant that Terry was intentionally forcing Daniel to injure himself and wear him out with such training both to get back at him for destroying John Kreese's martial art career and so he'll be so torn form the training he'll loose the upcoming tournament. But both he and Kreese have done such acts before to students they were teaching but personally didn't like as shown in supplemental materials like the novelization.

In boxing gyms, wrestling classes, and western based weapon arts like fencing and archery (love even MMA classes) such acts of stupidity practically don't exist. Even "home" instruction by uncertified amateur hobbyist (who never fought a single professional fight or even weekend betting bouts for extra cash) you'd practically don't have to worry about getting your hand broken because your coach was telling you to hit trees with hooks to get stronger or because you were given poor-quality obviously damaged fencing protection and you got hit when you were sparring.

Not to mention even just some random amateur hobbyists who you met and decided pay to give you lessons weekend lessons will AT the very least know enough about boxing or other western fighting sports that they can easily give you a schedule of proper boxing or wrestling regime and can quickly show you in an instant how to properly hold a longbow and what exercises you'll need to do and HOW to execute them properly like a real army pushup in order to gradually develop the body needed for amateur competition level.

For Christ sake an old man who took boxing lessons when he was a teen but stopped once he went to college around 50 years ago who I personally know can get you into far superior shape and teach you proper punching mechanics than most "certified" blackbelts in practically every dojo I visited. We're talking a man who stopped getting involve with the sport in his 20s and only got into it recently last year!

In addition, rivalry schools and cult mentality are so rare in the boxing world (and the same applies to other fighting sports) that if you mention them to an instructor I'm guarantee you'll get laughter. In the various boxing tournaments I've been to and boxing instructors I've chatted with,they often tell me one of the reasons they aren't into the martial arts or left very young if they were into them years ago, was because of all that big dick waggering "my style is betta than yours!" and "I'm going to vandalize your dojos!" mentality so common in the subculture. I'm not too much into wrestling to give a say, but my fencing instructor himself (who competed in many tournaments both nationally and internationally) states he is so disgusted with how Japanese kendo fighters and other obscure Asian style weapon masters are always bickering with each other and allt he known fights that happen in Asia between Dao fighters and Bo fighters, etc.

I mean with how lucrative western fighting arts are (Especially boxing), why is there no such abuse fraud, and "dojo wars' the way the martial arts world are rife with?

I mean even at the professional level, while illegal acts and shady people exist, you don't hear about a professional wrestling coach who won gold medals forcing a student to wear himself out with BS training like Terry Silver did in Karate Kid 3 so that he'll lose in the upcoming tournament to another wrestler (who the coach is secretly also teaching and has been in a longer stronger relationship with). You don't see pro-boxers getting a bunch of other students his coach was teaching and jumping someone else out of sadistic pleasure because they are taught that way in the gym the whole the Cobra Kai kids were repeatedly ganging up and beating Daniel Russo and other non-members of their dojos. Nor do you see practitioners of fencing going to gym locations late at night and vandailizing the gym so badly that it is practically useless the next day and thus it ruins their upcoming opponents fighting capabilities for the upcoming bout.

All of these things are so lovely common stuff that is involved with the McDojos. HELL even MMA gyms (including those with real life John Kreeses) don't get involved with such BS authoritarian personalities, cults, and illegal activities the way McDojos and Traditional Asian Martial Arts int he West do. The real life equivalents of John Kreeses I met wouldn't dare teach "mercy is for the weak" mentality the Cobra Kai espoused and in fact more often then not they try as much as possible to avoid students jumping other guys and other illegal stuff seen in Karate Kid. While from my experience many Traditional Martial Arts schools (McDojos) often encouraged stuff that would get their student locked up in due time and eventually gangraped int he prison showers.

What prevented Western fighting sports from getting such McDojoish tendencies? I mean have you seen the PPV payroll for boxers on HBO? With such millions of $$$ being thrown away, I'm surprised there isn't the same amount of McDojo boxing gyms the way TMAs suffer. Nor does wrestling, fencing, marksmanship, HEMA, and archery suffer such problems. Even MMA (which has many instructors of dubious qualification) doesn't go into the amount of BS that martial arts inspired in the west.

I've seen mcdojos of all types. When mma gained popularity Villar and tkd schools started advertising mma classes.

 

[drop bear]

No, not any more than anyone else. Those are useful traits, of course, but we don’t focus on them in any overly special way. Martial training ought to develop them in an appropriate way, regardless.

I have seen descriptions of the “five animals” in Chinese martial arts, and folk traditions, and there can be this kind of description that ascribes certain traits to the animal. That is all well and fine on an intellectual and theoretical level but i do not believe it translates directly into the animal styles, i spite of what some folks claim. But in my experience, in my particular Crane method (Tibetan) that has no bearing. We do not do special exercises for balance or accuracy outside of our regular martial training. Like I said, we punch and kick like all the rest.



I haven’t trained in them so I cannot say for certain. But if so, not really to copy or “become” the animal. I don’t know what specific traits Tiger method uses, other than the claw hand which is not unique to that method. Certainly a human cannot move like a tiger and cannot develop the strength of a tiger. A smaller person can practice tiger, one does not need to be big and strong to do tiger. So that isn’t it.



Perhaps. But humans have developed methodologies as well as rule sets that may apply under certain circumstances. Watching animals fight can have things in common with human wrestling, but it is certainly not the same thing. When chimpanzees fight with killing intent, they bite, rip, tear, pound and smash along with that grabbing and “grappling”. It looks nothing like a BJJ match, for example, and it ranges all across the forest as the combatants move and engage and disengage and engage again.



Mm…kind of. I see what you are saying but I don’t really agree that it is the same thing.

well, I believe that in the chaos of real combat, the quality and cleanness of your technique will degrade rapidly. That is why we practice as perfectly as we can, so that when it degrades, there is still enough integrity to be effective.

This sort of discussion is kind of why western MA. doesn't have as big a McDojo phenomenon.

Basically we have some sort of discussion about animal forms and their legitimacy.

And so both sides are waxing lyrical about all reasons why it is logical that they would work. Or not. Or whatever. I wasn't paying that much attention.

Where western martial arts just do.

To find out you would literally just fight the guy in one shape or form. The amazing back story kind of becomes irrelevant.

It is two completely different mindsets.

 

[Hanzou]

This sort of discussion is kind of why western MA. doesn't have as big a McDojo phenomenon.

Basically we have some sort of discussion about animal forms and their legitimacy.

And so both sides are waxing lyrical about all reasons why it is logical that they would work. Or not. Or whatever. I wasn't paying that much attention.

Where western martial arts just do.

To find out you would literally just fight the guy in one shape or form. The amazing back story kind of becomes irrelevant.

It is two completely different mindsets.

My question is this;

Why can't I see videos like this of traditional kung fu animal styles, where I can see them working in a practical manner with loads of clear applications to actual fighting? Here we have a BJJ instructor rolling with a professional MMA fighter that he helps train who is larger, heavier, and more powerful than he is.

A simple, clear display of a martial art's efficacy.

 

[isshinryuronin]

I have seen descriptions of the “five animals” in Chinese martial arts, and folk traditions, and there can be this kind of description that ascribes certain traits to the animal. That is all well and fine on an intellectual and theoretical level but i do not believe it translates directly into the animal styles, i spite of what some folks claim.

Tigers utilize their power in fighting. George Foreman did also. So, can't we say he fought with Tiger style? Sugar Ray Leonard used speed and evasion. Did he not emulate Crane style? Maybe Ali fought like a Butterfly and a Bee. Joe Frasier used "Buffalo" style (my own term). Neither fighter sought to "become" the animal. It was not a conscious decision. That was just the way they fought. It fit their physique and personality. Their fighting style came first. Any animal connotation to it came after as a description.

CMA animal styles are different in that the named fighting style came first and afterwords, the practitioners sought to adapt to that animal's "style." Here, it was their decision to train and fight in that particular way. But if that given animal style did not harmonize with the fighter's natural style, effectiveness would surely suffer. Not sure if the above comparissons have any profound meaning - just a personal intellectual observation.

Maybe the animal's physical technique is not the main consideration. Maybe it's just our perceived spirit of the animal we adopt and anthropormorphize it into a named animal style, imagining we are a tiger, monkey, crane, etc. If it helps energize and fortify us in a fight, it's a plus.

In "Rock-Paper-Scissors" one always trumps the other. Not so in MA styles.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Here we have a BJJ instructor rolling with a professional MMA fighter ...

There is nothing wrong about the animal style.

- BJJ guys fight like octopus.
- My guys fight like rhino.

 

[drop bear]

My question is this;

Why can't I see videos like this of traditional kung fu animal styles, where I can see them working in a practical manner with loads of clear applications to actual fighting? Here we have a BJJ instructor rolling with a professional MMA fighter that he helps train who is larger, heavier, and more powerful than he is.

A simple, clear display of a martial art's efficacy.

Practical application is not only not part of their tool set.but so much not part of their tool set that they can't even tell it doesn't exist.

And so their is a huge gap in people's ability to reason a subject to a conclusion.

 

[drop bear]

There is nothing wrong about the animal style.

- BJJ guys fight like octopus.
- My guys fight like rhino.

View attachment 27581

I only just got how that picture is a massive dig at the ground is my ocean crowd.

Well done.

 

[Alan0354]

I just response to the ORIGINAL post #1:

Those are MOVIES. Don't take it too serious!!! You really think "Wax on, wax off....." works? It's just a movie.

 

[drop bear]

I just response to the ORIGINAL post #1:

Those are MOVIES. Don't take it too serious!!! You really think "Wax on, wax off....." works? It's just a movie.


As for the rest, this is 21st century, you don't have to insist on inventing everything alone. If someone has something better, why not learn from it instead of worrying about the stupid pride and has to go around and try to invent something likely not as good just to say " I did not copy others"!!!

I am a Chinese and was living in Hong Kong till 1973 after Bruce Lee died. Kung Fu is very popular in Hong Kong, I talked to enough people with MA background. It's the pride. People glorified copying the exact form, keeping up with the tradition whatever with invented hundreds of years ago. They don't want to change, that's the mentality in general.

It was ok in the older days. BUT now, it's a different world, people record the fight, sit back and analyze, find ways to break the puzzle and improve on it. Just like Football coach analyze the opposing team by watching their games, create the strategy to explore their weak point. If you insist on keeping the tradition, you'll be eaten alive in no time.

Look at Bruce Lee combined the best of WC with boxing hands and TKD kicks and really dominated at his time. MA really followed that......Until UFC1 when Royce Gracie cleaned the clock of all the strikers. All or a sudden, the whole MA got turned up side down. They started to look for ways to break the new puzzle and they did. Look at Royce Gracie got creamed, destroyed by Matt Huges in the first round. BUT, then Huges got his clock cleaned within a few months. MA is a constant evolving thing now. You just watch and compare the UFC fights a few years back with the new ones, people fight differently already. You have to look forward, not looking back. Bruce Lee was great at his time, you think he can even last one minute in the Octagon even with no rules?

I don't like to use the word progressive, but I absolutely think every discipline or style needs to be humble and start learning instead of insisting their style is the best like in the older days. Spend more time in learning and improving instead of wasting time defending the pride. I don't think schools in boxing and wrestling have this kind of pride problem that holding them back.

JMHO

We have such good access to these guys as well. There is so much out there that you only have to go a couple of steps down and you access top quality martial artists.

Who will train with you for virtually nothing.

One tier off a UFC fighter and you are getting a guy who is probably competing as a second job. Who may have had 50 fights in three or four disciplines.

Who will train you for almost nothing.

Go find some of the 2nd tier bare knuckle guys. Think of the wealth of practical experience they have. That honestly half of them would give away.

 

[drop bear]

Too hard to chase down.

 

[Hanzou]

There is nothing wrong about the animal style.

I would like to see someone legitimately use one of them in a fighting situation. Whether that situation be sport, or self defense.

- BJJ guys fight like octopus.
- My guys fight like rhino.

View attachment 27581

Interestingly, one of my favorite Guards is the Octopus Guard.....