Why does MMA count as an own martial art now ?

[elder999]

Really? So you're saying you can't tell good technique from bad technique?

Speak for yourself please.

I can't even tell it's "technique," and neither can you

Then how can you say that Rodolfo is pulling Judo throws out of his Bjj training if he's actually training Judo separately to learn those throws?

In part, because he trained under Julio Cesar Pereira, an Oswaldo Fadda black belt AND judo black belt himself-that particular lineage has preserved the gyoku waza taught by Maeda to Gracie and Franca-it's a non-Gracie line of BJJ, and preserved the pre-war throws and foot and leg locks that Gracie jiujutsu often lacks, or frowns upon.

So it's because throws like morote seoi nage have been part of BJJ from the beginning, and because of the way he modified it for BJJ competition: going to both knees immediately, throwing uke at an angle instead of directly in front, and placing his body at an angle-all of these negated (somewhat) the disadvantage of exposing the back in that particular type of competition...

 

[Skullpunch]

And that's simply not our approach. In our system if someone is close enough to grab your clothing, they're close enough to start punching you. We close distance and go for a clinch instead of having someone push/pull us via our clothing. We view that as simply far too risky. Better to wrap them up with a clinch and then perform a takedown from that clinch. Our takedowns are also extremely simple and fairly easy to perform.

Your previous statement "chances of you running into someone with a kimono etc etc" sounded like you were talking about someone on the street attacking you and if so then what I said absolutely stands. If that statement on your part was meant to imply someone who trains to strike from close quarters as opposed to grabbing whatever they can then what you say is more valid. However, even then there is some trepidation for me to fully accept what you say, as grabbing one's clothing can still easily happen in the chaos of a scrap regardless of whether you're trained to do so or not.

Again, my point is that even a sloppy DLT can be brutally effective, which is partly why the IJF banned it from competition. You can screw up several aspects of the DLT and it'll still take someone to the floor. You simply don't have that level of cushion in Judo throws which require a great deal of technique to pull off properly, and as stated earlier, if not performed properly can leave you wide open for punishment.

And again, my point is that everything you say applies to judo takedowns also applies to wrestling takedowns. A sloppy DLT indeed can bring you to the ground, but it also can get you guillotined, anaconda/d'arce choked, sprawled on and kneed in the head, reversed to mount/side control/rear mount, etc and so forth.

Also the IJF didn't ban the morote gari because it's "too dangerous", that was a made up justification on their part. They banned leg grabs because using leg grabs to stall was becoming a major issue that made competitive judo hard to watch. The unfortunate trend with the IJF is that they are all too happy to ban effective technique in favor of aesthetic value.

 

[Hanzou]

I can't even tell it's "technique," and neither can you

Again, speak for yourself.

In part, because he trained under Julio Cesar Pereira, an Oswaldo Fadda black belt AND judo black belt himself-that particular lineage has preserved the gyoku waza taught by Maeda to Gracie and Franca-it's a non-Gracie line of BJJ, and preserved the pre-war throws and foot and leg locks that Gracie jiujutsu often lacks, or frowns upon.

So it's because throws like morote seoi nage have been part of BJJ from the beginning, and because of the way he modified it for BJJ competition: going to both knees immediately, throwing uke at an angle instead of directly in front, and placing his body at an angle-all of these negated (somewhat) the disadvantage of exposing the back in that particular type of competition...

You need to update your info about Gjj and leg locking. I was trained leg locking within both Relson's and Rickson's systems. One of the best leg lockers in competitive Bjj is part of team Renzo Gracie, and was trained by two Renzo Gracie black belts. I also know that Ralph and Roger Gracie's academies practice leg locking. So, I don't know which Gracie affiliation you're talking about that is ignoring or shunning leg locks.

Now Judo on the other hand has ignored and shunned leg locks for what? About 80 years now?

As for the Fadda lines of Bjj, they typically don't teach Bjj and Judo together. What they do is have Bjj classes and Judo classes, and practitioners have belts in Bjj and Judo, just like Rodolfo Viera.

That btw flies in the face of your pet theory above. I find it interestI got that the Brazilians actively separate Bjj from Judo, yet you seem obsessed with making them the exact same.

 

[elder999]

Again, speak for yourself.




You need to update your info about Gjj and leg locking. I was trained leg locking within both Relson's and Rickson's systems. One of the best leg lockers in competitive Bjj is part of team Renzo Gracie, and was trained by two Renzo Gracie black belts. I also know that Ralph and Roger Gracie's academies practice leg locking. So, I don't know which Gracie affiliation you're talking about that is ignoring or shunning leg locks.

It comes from my age, of course. For most of the 20th century, Gracie JJ frowned on leg locks, toe-holds and such because they thought they were low-class or something. Here, Eddie Bravo talks about how leg attacks were frowned on, with a story from the first Pan-Ams, where he and Erik Paulson got yelled at and got told to release leg locks and toe holds.(this is a Joe Rogan podcast, and thus, NSFW). This is because, even though they were legal techniques under the rules, they were frowned upon-because they did them in the "suburbs" outside of Rio, and because, maybe, of injuries.

This is briefer, and more to the point Eddie Bravo tells the 1st Pan Am story at 4 minutes:

Now Judo on the other hand has ignored and shunned leg locks for what? About 80 years now?

Not always ignored or shunned, just not used in competition.

As for the Fadda lines of Bjj, they typically don't teach Bjj and Judo together. What they do is have Bjj classes and Judo classes, and practitioners have belts in Bjj and Judo, just like Rodolfo Viera.

That btw flies in the face of your pet theory above. I find it interestI got that the Brazilians actively separate Bjj from Judo, yet you seem obsessed with making them the exact same.

No, it doesn't fly in the face, and no, I'm not obsessed with making them the exact same-they're taught separately, and not the exact same because they have different competitive rules-the techniques, though, are the same.

 

[Hanzou]

Your previous statement "chances of you running into someone with a kimono etc etc" sounded like you were talking about someone on the street attacking you and if so then what I said absolutely stands. If that statement on your part was meant to imply someone who trains to strike from close quarters as opposed to grabbing whatever they can then what you say is more valid. However, even then there is some trepidation for me to fully accept what you say, as grabbing one's clothing can still easily happen in the chaos of a scrap regardless of whether you're trained to do so or not.

Again, our goal is to never be close enough to let someone grab our clothing. If someone is that close, I should already have wrapped them up in a clinch so that they can't hit me. Allowing someone to get that close to you and control you via grabbing your clothes is too dangerous.

As I said, simply a difference of approach.

And again, my point is that everything you say applies to judo takedowns also applies to wrestling takedowns. A sloppy DLT indeed can bring you to the ground, but it also can get you guillotined, anaconda/d'arce choked, sprawled on and kneed in the head, reversed to mount/side control/rear mount, etc and so forth.

I never said that a DLT can't be countered. What I said was that a DLT is far more idiot proof than an Uchi Mata or an Ashi Guruma. If your goal is take someone to the ground, a DLT is far more likely to get them there than the Judo throws simply because the Judo throws are more complex and reliant on various factors.

Also the IJF didn't ban the morose geri because it's "too dangerous", that was a made up justification on their part. They banned leg grabs because using leg grabs to stall was becoming a major issue that made competitive judo hard to watch. The unfortunate trend with the IJF is that they are all too happy to ban effective technique in favor of aesthetic value.

Well it wasn't just the DLT, it was the entire family of leg-based takedowns. IJF reasoning aside, the loss of those takedowns cripples Judo stand up since those leg based attacks are some of the most common takedowns in grappling.

Which btw, is another reason I would tell a person to cross-train in wrestling over Judo.

 

[Hanzou]

It comes from my age, of course. For most of the 20th century, Gracie JJ frowned on leg locks, toe-holds and such because they thought they were low-class or something. Here, Eddie Bravo talks about how leg attacks were frowned on, with a story from the first Pan-Ams, where he and Erik Paulson got yelled at and got told to release leg locks and toe holds.(this is a Joe Rogan podcast, and thus, NSFW). This is because, even though they were legal techniques under the rules, they were frowned upon-because they did them in the "suburbs" outside of Rio, and because, maybe, of injuries.

This is briefer, and more to the point Eddie Bravo tells the 1st Pan Am story at 4 minutes:

Of course. However, your post implied that that was still the case today, which isn't even close to being accurate.

Not always ignored or shunned, just not used in competition.

And banned from randori/rolling/sparring practice, which essentially means that its ignored and shunned.

No, it doesn't fly in the face, and no, I'm not obsessed with making them the exact same-they're taught separately, and not the exact same because they have different competitive rules-the techniques, though, are the same.

You bring up this silly nonsense every time someone mentions Bjj and Judo in the same sentence, so yes it is obsessive. Further I've already described several differences between Judo and Bjj that you continue to completely ignore. In the end, this simply follows a typical pattern of yours where you believe that you know more than the actual practitioners in the field, and in some cases the actual creators of the field itself. You did it with the Gracies and their claims of self defense and street fighting, and you're doing it again with the Fadda line's training methodology with Bjj and Judo.

 

[Ironbear24]

FMA isn't found in the UFC, and I like it very much. Boxing wasn't prevelant in MMA for years, but I've always been a fan of it. A martial art's representation in MMA is only part of the overall equation. If I'm seeing the founder of BT performing complete nonsense and passing it off as effective technique, that's pretty unforgivable IMO because as a teacher he has a responsibility to his art and to his students.

That btw is why I said that BT may not be the best fit for a Bjj practitioner looking to cross train. In Bjj if we're deficient in something we go and find the experts in it and learn it, even if they aren't Bjj. What Hatsumi is doing here is saying that there's no need to cross train elsewhere because all of the answers are within Ninjutsu. That's never a good philosophy to follow, and his shoddy results are proof of that.

It makes you wonder if they're willing to perform complete nonsense on that end of the spectrum, what else are they willing to compromise?

So he is a bad guy for trying to market his fighting style? How is this any different from what the gracies say in all their dvds? That bjj is the best ever and all the other styles fail in comparison, then they show the silly Gracie challenge videos where members of the family beat a couple of people in matches therefore said style is bad and theirs is better? In reality they don't mention that what it ACTUALLY means is that those individuals were simply bested by a better martial artist, and not a better fighting style. That perpetuats the lie that if just anyone takes up bjj then they will be better than all of these other styles.

It's really nothing different and everyone does this.

 

[Hanzou]

So he is a bad guy for trying to market his fighting style?

He's a bad guy because he's showing something that doesn't work at all and passing it off as a viable method of self defense. As shown in this thread, Hatsumi is generally a respected figure in the MA world, so putting out something like that is going to be believed by a segment of the MA community, and maybe people outside of the MA community who don't know any better. You attempt that stuff when 1-2 people are on top of you and you're going to get hurt or killed, and that's frankly irresponsible and wrong.

How is this any different from what the gracie say in all their dads? That bjj is the best ever and all the other styles fail in comparison, then they show the silly Gracie challenge videos where members of the family beat a couple of people in matches therefore said style is bad and theirs is better? In reality they don't mention that what it ACTUALLY means is that those individuals were simply bested by a better martial artist, and not a better fighting style. That perpetuate the lie that if just anyone takes up bjj then they will be better than all of these other styles.

Watch their videos again. They say plainly that you should learn to fight on the ground because its a neglected range of fighting. They never say that other martial arts are useless or that theirs is the best. In fact, the Gracies themselves have actively trained in other MAs.

It's really nothing different and everyone does this.

Feel free to show the instructional tapes from the Gracies that are showcasing outright bogus techniques.

 

[Ironbear24]

A quote from the video. "Be a complete martial artist with a style that knows ground fighting."

And to be honest I didn't see much wrong with that video. The one thing I can say is a lot of it looks staged for the sake of showing off the techniques easier, but the technique is still there. By no means should any moron look at this video a few times and think "oh I can do this in a real fight." Because first off that would require a lot of practice to actually do it in the first place.

If you don't like it that's fine though, but not liking it and not being effective are very seperated things.

 

[Hanzou]

A quote from the video. "Be a complete martial artist with a style that knows ground fighting."

Wouldn't you agree that someone who goes from being a martial arts dynamo on their feet to almost completely helpless once they got knocked on their back is an incomplete martial artist?

 

[Ironbear24]

Wouldn't you agree that someone who goes from being a martial arts dynamo on their feet to almost completely helpless once they got knocked on their back is an incomplete martial artist?

I'm saying that that is a more individual problem rather than a fighting style problem. I have literally never seen any martial arts that has zero focus in grappling defense. Only one I can think of boxing.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Wouldn't you agree that someone who goes from being a martial arts dynamo on their feet to almost completely helpless once they got knocked on their back is an incomplete martial artist?

I like that - "incomplete". Mind you, I think that depends upon the individual's purpose. I know people who study martial arts not for defense (even some who study defensive styles), but for the challenge and expertise. For that, lacking a ground game is not necessarily incomplete. For defense, it definitely is.

To Ironbear's point - I don't know of any styles/arts that lack ground work. I do know schools/teachers that don't teach any, and some (not sure if it's the art or the teacher) that have ineffective ground work.

 

[Hanzou]

I'm saying that that is a more individual problem rather than a fighting style problem. I have literally never seen any martial arts that has zero focus in grappling defense. Only one I can think of boxing.

Grappling defense isn't the same as ground fighting. Asian systems tend to not possess ground fighting because culturally fighting from the ground wasn't viewed very highly. Look what happened when the Kodokan got beat by Mataemom Tanabe for example. Tenable used a range of fighting almost completely alien to many Asian fighters.

I like that - "incomplete". Mind you, I think that depends upon the individual's purpose. I know people who study martial arts not for defense (even some who study defensive styles), but for the challenge and expertise. For that, lacking a ground game is not necessarily incomplete. For defense, it definitely is.

To Ironbear's point - I don't know of any styles/arts that lack ground work. I do know schools/teachers that don't teach any, and some (not sure if it's the art or the teacher) that have ineffective ground work.

How much ground work is in Aikido? Just curious.

 

[Ironbear24]

Ground fighting is not a new pheonoemon and as such these styles do have defenses for it. Kenpo for example does, it is simply just not so fixated on only the ground.

My point is, is simply that the technique was there, it seems that you simply just didn't like it because of how it was presented. I will admit I didn't like it either because of how staged it felt. In my opinion if you are going to showcase your skill or your fighting style than do it full speed and at least close to full force as possible.

 

[Ironbear24]

How much ground work is in Aikido? Just curious.

I would like to know this too, my experience with aikido is very limited and sparring against it always felt more like I was a bull trying to destroy a river. Despite all my speed and power all I could do was make splashes.

Aikido from what I have seen seems to be more of a defense style than a fighting style.

 

[Hanzou]

My point is, is simply that the technique was there, it seems that you simply just didn't like it because of how it was presented. I will admit I didn't like it either because of how staged it felt. In my opinion if you are going to showcase your skill or your fighting style than do it full speed and at least close to full force as possible.

If we're talking about the Hatsumi video I'd be very curious as to which techniques you viewed as effective or realistic.

 

[Ironbear24]

gE

22 would work. The one after that seems entirely staged, looks like the guy just stood up and fell on purpose. I can see 49 working, but I doubt it would get that same response from the attacker. If they simply pivot their leg they could break that hold. But everything has a way out of it if you know what to do.

58 was a bad angle, I have no clue what happened there at all as I could see was the guys back. The leg hold after that I can see working.

The armbar at 1:14 is good, but the way he lead to it was again, entirely staged, the guy laid down and put himself in the positioning to be armbared.

So yeah, good techniques so to speak, but way too rehearsed and stage to be taken seriously.

 

[Hanzou]

gE

22 would work. The one after that seems entirely staged, looks like the guy just stood up and fell on purpose. I can see 49 working, but I doubt it would get that same response from the attacker. If they simply pivot their leg they could break that hold. But everything has a way out of it if you know what to do.

58 was a bad angle, I have no clue what happened there at all as I could see was the guys back. The leg hold after that I can see working.

The armbar at 1:14 is good, but the way he lead to it was again, entirely staged, the guy laid down and put himself in the positioning to be armbared.

So yeah, good techniques so to speak, but way too rehearsed and stage to be taken seriously.

I think your times are a bit off...

Here's the problem, individual working parts mean nothing if the entire sequence is wrong. For example, by "22" I'm assuming you're talking about the arm lock he performs on the guy he's rolled over? Well that's all fine and dandy, except that the roll he performed to get to that point (before he said "bridge the body" ) is laughably wrong. If you attempted that with someone on top of you, you would either not go anywhere and eat fists all day, or your assailant would allow you to roll over so that they can choke you from behind. The "bridging" that he does is lifting his hip and simply rolling to his side. That isn't how you're supposed to bridge. You're supposed to bridge at an angle. Rickson Gracie explains exactly why you shouldn't bridge the way Hatsumi is bridging here;

You should really watch the whole thing. It's a clinic on that technique, but the part I'm talking about starts around 3:30.


Further, you typically don't start bridging until you've trapped their leg so that they can't base out. There was zero attempt at that in Hatsumi's vid. The guy on top actually purposely trapped his own leg as Hatsumi rolled, which is absolutely ridiculous.

And that's really the problem; The point of the Hatsumi video is showing Ninjutsu counters to the mount. If the mount escape itself is wrong, everything is wrong.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Grappling defense isn't the same as ground fighting. Asian systems tend to not possess ground fighting because culturally fighting from the ground wasn't viewed very highly. Look what happened when the Kodokan got beat by Mataemom Tanabe for example. Tenable used a range of fighting almost completely alien to many Asian fighters.



How much ground work is in Aikido? Just curious.

In Ueshiba's art, I've seen schools teach a range of fighting from the ground. Most just teach defense against a standing attacker, but I've seen some teach actual groundwork, using the principles of the larger art. I doubt Ueshiba taught any ground fighting (perhaps for the reason you stated), but it certainly is in the art, at least in some branches. I've long been curious as to how early it showed up. Tohei did demonstrations with wrestlers and Judo players when he came to the US, and I wonder if he added any ground work at that point. I don't know enough of that art to be more informative.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I would like to know this too, my experience with aikido is very limited and sparring against it always felt more like I was a bull trying to destroy a river. Despite all my speed and power all I could do was make splashes.

Aikido from what I have seen seems to be more of a defense style than a fighting style.

I love that - "a bull trying to destroy a river". I've felt that way working with some people in that art.