Why do so many Westerners have a "Paris Syndrome" to style's origin country (often laser focused)?

[Deleted member 39746]

not nessisarily replying specfically here. but there are some styles that havent made it intertnationally, that are only present in any meaningful number in their home country, or X countries. So if you want to learn them you either have to host somone from there or go there. and you generally adopt some customs etc from the place you are living in its semi unstoppable.

There are a few japanese fighting styles i know of that are only really of any significance in japan and are very rare outside it, or rarer while being slightly less in it. Plus you generally learn about your own nations history primarily in school, which would lead people to try and reserect styles etc of their homeland being from it.

 

[Gweilo]

Speaking from experience, when I was in my mid 20's, I went to Korea to train in Hapkido for 6 months, at the time, I did beleive, all the best teachers were there, when I got there I met a great teacher, and had an excellent experience, after this I learnt that all the most senior Hapkidoist had moved to the USA, so travelled to the US several times for seminars, and 1 or 2 weeks training as a guest. It was not an idioism of mystic teachers in the land of origin, it was a desire to learn from some of the best, I did not beleive that everyone in Korea trained all day every day (although I pretty much did train all the time I was there), and had a higher understanding of the art, just a desire to learn, no disrespect from the teachers on my country, but at this time, access to top instructors was very limited. Had I known at the time, what I now know, I would have gone to the US for 6 months, but I do not regret my time spent in Korea, and the kim chi is great in both places.

 

[Martial D]

Very important links to the topic at hand.

Do many Westerners have a skewed perspective of … - Reddit

Do many Western MMA fans (especially from America) have a skewed perspective of Thailand and Muay Thai? : MuayThai

Why are so many Western martial artists often atheist or nominally religious (if they even attend spiritual ceremonies at all) but often treat fighting arts with far more importance,often like a religion? Ignoring the countries arts originated from treats spirituality far more importantly? : martialarts

And this thread I created over a week ago is quite related to this topic.

Back in Asia, just how concerned are they with customs like gi clothing and meditation? Esp in TMA?

Be sure to read the three links because they are essential to understand this topic I'm posting about.

A quick FYI Paris Syndrome is a word referring to a weird trend that happens to Japanese people in which they go to a shock, even PTSD like state, upon visiting France for the first time because France isn't a rich fancy country full of sophisticated people. Japan's media and pop culture tend to portray Paris as the most beautiful cleanest city in the world and French people as a sophisticated gorgeous suave and refined race.

Because pop media has portrayed France this way for years in Japan, many Japanese tourists visiting France literally expect to meet people who can discuss literature everywhere in Paris and to see every French girl wearing fancy expensive bags and other displays of intellectualism and high culture.

So when they finally enter the city from the airport they see Paris and France more like a dirty city full of rude people (at least rude by Japanese standards) and full of slum buildings and other signs of lower class white American culture as portrayed in Japanese pop media. This shatters the Japanese that they ahve to get psychiatric aid. The Japanese embassy literally has a special section to help tourists who get Paris Syndrome upon seeing the realities of France.

I notice many martial artists esp white Westerners often wank of o the foreign cultures of the styles they practise. Like I cannot tell you how many white Americans I know who want to go to China because they expect to live the life of a Wuxia and Kung Fu action film and how many MMA and kickboxing fans want to visit Thailand because they picture the nation being full of tough badasses with the gyms being the harshest in the world. Don't get me started on the Samurai fetish many weaboos and neckbeards have.

Even martial artists and western practitioners with a more grounded view have an interest in the style's origin homeland almost exclusively revolving around martial arts. Very view know about the country's history outside of its relations to martial arts and perhaps the nation's military history. Most don't care about trying out local delicacies and 99.99999% are ignorant of basic manners and social expectations of the style's home country outside of what they practise at their school. The only reason they care about going to Israel or Korea is only to practise Krav and other styles. And when they go to the country thats the only thing many martial artists often do. They don't bother visiting monuments or watching local TV, etc stuff say actual Indonesians would prefer doing rather than practising Silat or how the typical Thailander lives his life.

Why do many martial artists tend to have this strange behavior towards the country they dream of going and training in? I mean sure many otakus solely want to Japan for anime/manga but most come out of japan with a bigger appreciation of the country as they visit historical places and learn its history, try local restaurants, etc as a result of trying out stuff in Japan beyond anime/manga. Many tourists only have an Americanophilia because of Hollywood but many become fans of American music, eaters of staple foods, etc once they go back home after tasting America's culture beyond cinema. I can go on and on.

But why do so many martial artists have a narrow Paris Syndrome behavior towards their style's culture (even if they actually have visited the country once)? Esp Westerners? I mean there's so much more to China than just Kung Fu such as fine literature and medicine. Korea has very rich dramas and great movies that one should explore if they wish to call themselves a true lover of Korea. Thailand has a rich wilderness as well great locations for hunting wildlife.

Why do many martial artists have an extremely narrow interest in the country they claim to be so interested in that is their style's birthplace?

You know, this isn't quora. You don't actually get paid to post random uninformed clickbait questions here

Just thought you should know.

 

[Flying Crane]

Wank of ? Really? Are you sure that you mean they masturbate to the foreign cultures etc?

How very strange.

Drat! You are on to me!

 

[Bullsherdog]

Speaking from experience, when I was in my mid 20's, I went to Korea to train in Hapkido for 6 months, at the time, I did beleive, all the best teachers were there, when I got there I met a great teacher, and had an excellent experience, after this I learnt that all the most senior Hapkidoist had moved to the USA, so travelled to the US several times for seminars, and 1 or 2 weeks training as a guest. It was not an idioism of mystic teachers in the land of origin, it was a desire to learn from some of the best, I did not beleive that everyone in Korea trained all day every day (although I pretty much did train all the time I was there), and had a higher understanding of the art, just a desire to learn, no disrespect from the teachers on my country, but at this time, access to top instructors was very limited. Had I known at the time, what I now know, I would have gone to the US for 6 months, but I do not regret my time spent in Korea, and the kim chi is great in both places.

Almost everyone else has avoided the main topic and your post is precisely what I was commenting on in my topic. Lets just concentrate on Korea for now .Almost every Americans who are big into TKD (but still only have a superficial understanding of the art) I know often keep saying they wish to go to Korea because they want to become top level of martial artists and they have this perception hardcore training is common in every town in Korea has a Dojang doing brutal bone breaking training. Most of them do not know anything about Korea, not even having tasted daily Korean staples like Kim Chi or knowing what Korean TV show is the most viewed right now. Some of them don't even know Korean American trends such as actors Steve Yuen and John Cho or TV shows showcasing Korean American life played by American Korean actors and such. Their view of Korea is almost solely on TKD and perhaps other martial arts.

Now a more personal example, Thailand in recent years suffers this trend. So much for year I wanted to move to Thailand to become champion level MT fighters so I was surprised myself when a new gym was propped up by run by a former pro MT fighter from Thailand and mostly having Thai immigrants as gym staff and janitors, etc. I was pretty taken back by how they insisted on sparring with padded knees and elbows and they laughed when I asked. The former pro himself told me my reaction is typical of Americans who visit Thailand because they want to partake in hardcore training only to discover notonly is MT gyms not as common as they'd expect but most gyms aren't necessarily bone breaking, many even only practise point sparring or fighting with pads ( even with full body armor in some) to prevent injuries and for the safety of gym members.He ended with a chuckle saying most American visitors are better off seeking a Western MMA trainer if they want to learn hardcore MT since most MT gyms and clubs in Thailand are just clubs and the hardcore ones are not only extremely expensive they usually require "rising through the ranks" for years before a new member is even taught the pro level MT stuff.

Practically every new martial art trends has this similar experiences. I know old white kung fu masters who tell me their first timein China was disappointing because a lot of the Kung Fu teachers-even in the fancy temples and school-only taught them simple punches rather than fancy flowery movement and kicks and other advanced techniques. It wasonly after they learned "boring" straight punches that they finally were slowly taught more techniques (but still boring) such as simple stomp kicks to stomach and leg, backfists, etc. It would take them years they tell me while in China before the masters would start teach them the typical flowery arm motions and the Chinese masters told them the boring simple stuff like straight right punch was needed to be mastered before they can even be effective at kicks. These now master ranked white practitioners tell me the amount of disappointment the few trips to China.

Thats the point of my post. The assumptions of Westerners that all schools are hardcore in the East and more importantly how they view the culture through ADHD lenses of only related to martial arts. I for example never was interested in Thai cuisine and only cared about MT until one day one of the gym members brough thome food cooked by his wife. Literally fell in love with Thai food and now I'm far more interested in Thai cuisine than MT. As well as Thai movies and other parts of Thai culture.

Excepting Japan (with its famed anime and manga along with video game industry), most Western martial artists I know are quite pig ignorant of what people in these foreign countries actually are into. Too many Silat practitioners from Europe don't know about ikan bakar and other Indonesian food, too many people interested in Indian martial arts don'tknow anything else about India such as Bollywood aside from maybe Yoga and Gandhi.

Its like many Western practitioners only expect martial arts and are ignorant of basic mannerisms, popular music, etc of the Asian countries these styles originated from except maybe Japan (thanks to anime/manga and video games).

 

[Bullsherdog]

That would almost be as hilarious as the Japanese going to Italy or Greece, and expecting to see men in togas practicing pederasty.

It already happens as far as the West is concerned. Paris Syndrome anybody?

 

[BrendanF]

Almost everyone else has avoided the main topic and your post is precisely what I was commenting on in my topic.

Thats the point of my post. The assumptions of Westerners that all schools are hardcore in the East and more importantly how they view the culture through ADHD lenses of only related to martial arts. I for example never was interested in Thai cuisine and only cared about MT until one day one of the gym members brough thome food cooked by his wife. Literally fell in love with Thai food and now I'm far more interested in Thai cuisine than MT. As well as Thai movies and other parts of Thai culture.

Excepting Japan (with its famed anime and manga along with video game industry), most Western martial artists I know are quite pig ignorant of what people in these foreign countries actually are into. Too many Silat practitioners from Europe don't know about ikan bakar and other Indonesian food, too many people interested in Indian martial arts don'tknow anything else about India such as Bollywood aside from maybe Yoga and Gandhi.

Its like many Western practitioners only expect martial arts and are ignorant of basic mannerisms, popular music, etc of the Asian countries these styles originated from except maybe Japan (thanks to anime/manga and video games).

No, no one else has 'avoided the main topic' of your post - disagreeing with you is not the same thing.

I answered you directly and you avoided my reply. Idiots associate with idiots, so what can one expect?

 

[Rusty B]

It already happens as far as the West is concerned. Paris Syndrome anybody?

This makes zero sense.

 

[skribs]

Almost everyone else has avoided the main topic and your post is precisely what I was commenting on in my topic.

There's a bit of irony here, that it seems you have a bit of Paris Syndrome about what this forum is.

 

[Gweilo]

Almost everyone else has avoided the main topic and your post is precisely what I was commenting on in my topic. Lets just concentrate on Korea for now .Almost every Americans who are big into TKD (but still only have a superficial understanding of the art) I know often keep saying they wish to go to Korea because they want to become top level of martial artists and they have this perception hardcore training is common in every town in Korea has a Dojang doing brutal bone breaking training. Most of them do not know anything about Korea, not even having tasted daily Korean staples like Kim Chi or knowing what Korean TV show is the most viewed right now. Some of them don't even know Korean American trends such as actors Steve Yuen and John Cho or TV shows showcasing Korean American life played by American Korean actors and such. Their view of Korea is almost solely on TKD and perhaps other martial arts.

Now a more personal example, Thailand in recent years suffers this trend. So much for year I wanted to move to Thailand to become champion level MT fighters so I was surprised myself when a new gym was propped up by run by a former pro MT fighter from Thailand and mostly having Thai immigrants as gym staff and janitors, etc. I was pretty taken back by how they insisted on sparring with padded knees and elbows and they laughed when I asked. The former pro himself told me my reaction is typical of Americans who visit Thailand because they want to partake in hardcore training only to discover notonly is MT gyms not as common as they'd expect but most gyms aren't necessarily bone breaking, many even only practise point sparring or fighting with pads ( even with full body armor in some) to prevent injuries and for the safety of gym members.He ended with a chuckle saying most American visitors are better off seeking a Western MMA trainer if they want to learn hardcore MT since most MT gyms and clubs in Thailand are just clubs and the hardcore ones are not only extremely expensive they usually require "rising through the ranks" for years before a new member is even taught the pro level MT stuff.

Practically every new martial art trends has this similar experiences. I know old white kung fu masters who tell me their first timein China was disappointing because a lot of the Kung Fu teachers-even in the fancy temples and school-only taught them simple punches rather than fancy flowery movement and kicks and other advanced techniques. It wasonly after they learned "boring" straight punches that they finally were slowly taught more techniques (but still boring) such as simple stomp kicks to stomach and leg, backfists, etc. It would take them years they tell me while in China before the masters would start teach them the typical flowery arm motions and the Chinese masters told them the boring simple stuff like straight right punch was needed to be mastered before they can even be effective at kicks. These now master ranked white practitioners tell me the amount of disappointment the few trips to China.

Thats the point of my post. The assumptions of Westerners that all schools are hardcore in the East and more importantly how they view the culture through ADHD lenses of only related to martial arts. I for example never was interested in Thai cuisine and only cared about MT until one day one of the gym members brough thome food cooked by his wife. Literally fell in love with Thai food and now I'm far more interested in Thai cuisine than MT. As well as Thai movies and other parts of Thai culture.

Excepting Japan (with its famed anime and manga along with video game industry), most Western martial artists I know are quite pig ignorant of what people in these foreign countries actually are into. Too many Silat practitioners from Europe don't know about ikan bakar and other Indonesian food, too many people interested in Indian martial arts don'tknow anything else about India such as Bollywood aside from maybe Yoga and Gandhi.

Its like many Western practitioners only expect martial arts and are ignorant of basic mannerisms, popular music, etc of the Asian countries these styles originated from except maybe Japan (thanks to anime/manga and video games).

I think maybe for yoyrself, you over thought the whole experience, maybe what you expected to receive in the training, did not meet your expectations, of course if you go to a quality instructor their job is to make sure you have the fundamental basics correct, I can remember spending days on rolling, breakfalls, I can also remember a certain technique, I thought, and had been told before, I was good at, the Korean teacher told me no, do it again, about 50 or so times, after the session I asked what I was doing wrong, he replied nothing, I just wanted to see if you could execute it under pressure, but this is what I went for, not the food, or the tv programs, or the pop music.these were experiences for rest time, if you had the energy. My over all experience was get the basics mastered, and the rest is an option.

 

[JR 137]

Wait a second here... you mean every single MA club/school/whatever doesn’t go full beast mode all day, everyday? You mean to tell me every Asian MAist doesn’t train all day, everyday? MA training isn’t the only thing they live for?

I’m not going to meet a secret pack of ninjas in Japan and become one of them? I’m not going to go through that walk down the hallway in a Shaolin Monastery while fighting my way through it, and in the end lift the scorching hot cauldron that brands a dragon on one of my forearms and a tiger on the other, thereby making my badassness official?

So they’re basically like us - some people train in their free time, some like to train just for the sake of training, some train harder than others, and some run schools either as part time gigs or full time jobs. Most people don’t train at all. Who would’ve thunk it?

I guess I’m one of those “stupid Americans” who believes everything I see in movies. I’m so glad you came here to set the record straight. You saved me a lot of money, and more importantly a ton of heartache. I wasn’t sure if I should’ve gone to the Shaolin monastery, Muay Thai teacher deep in the jungle, ninja camp in the mountains, or the Mr. Miyagi like backyard dojo first. I planned on all of them and was just getting ready to make travel arrangements. Now what am I supposed to do? Stay home, work and support my wife and kids? F that! There’s a guy in Albuquerque who’s teaching this style of fighting that has the best of every martial art, and the worst of none.

Gotta run. My bags aren’t going to pack themselves. Then again, all I need is my gi and some underwear, so it won’t take long.

 

[drop bear]

Wait a second here... you mean every single MA club/school/whatever doesn’t go full beast mode all day, everyday? You mean to tell me every Asian MAist doesn’t train all day, everyday? MA training isn’t the only thing they live for?

I’m not going to meet a secret pack of ninjas in Japan and become one of them? I’m not going to go through that walk down the hallway in a Shaolin Monastery while fighting my way through it, and in the end lift the scorching hot cauldron that brands a dragon on one of my forearms and a tiger on the other, thereby making my badassness official?

So they’re basically like us - some people train in their free time, some like to train just for the sake of training, some train harder than others, and some run schools either as part time gigs or full time jobs. Most people don’t train at all. Who would’ve thunk it?

I guess I’m one of those “stupid Americans” who believes everything I see in movies. I’m so glad you came here to set the record straight. You saved me a lot of money, and more importantly a ton of heartache. I wasn’t sure if I should’ve gone to the Shaolin monastery, Muay Thai teacher deep in the jungle, ninja camp in the mountains, or the Mr. Miyagi like backyard dojo first. I planned on all of them and was just getting ready to make travel arrangements. Now what am I supposed to do? Stay home, work and support my wife and kids? F that! There’s a guy in Albuquerque who’s teaching this style of fighting that has the best of every martial art, and the worst of none.

Gotta run. My bags aren’t going to pack themselves. Then again, all I need is my gi and some underwear, so it won’t take long.

The Shaolin monastery is probably a good example as I think it is basically a tourist trap these days.

We force other cultures to be like us so we can better experience them?

Anecdotally I think Ninjitsu for example is chock full of white guys.

Join the Shidoshi on his annual Japan Ninjutsu Training Trip with the Masters!

Get the authentic ninja experience?

Because I thought the black pajamas was a movie thing.

And so people become heavily invested in the caricature of Japanese culture rather than Japanese culture.

 

[Rusty B]

Because I thought the black pajamas was a movie thing.

It is. The origin of those "black pajamas?" Prior to modern theater technology, Japanese theater didn't use curtains between acts. They simply darkened the stage, and had guys wearing these "black pajamas" to rearrange the props. The audience could still see this happening.

"Ninjas" wearing "black pajamas" actually started out as a joke during plays in the late 19th century when they had "ninjas" pretend to attack the stage crew while they were moving the props.

 

[Gweilo]

"Ninjas" wearing "black pajamas" actually started out as a joke during plays in the late 19th century when they had "ninjas" pretend to attack the stage crew while they were moving the props.

I dont think this is accurate, as most of the time the ninja would wear ordinary clothes, to blend in, the black pjamas as you put it would have been used as camoflauge for night missions, where intelligance gathering and assasinations took place. The truth is when it actually started we dont kniow, but to put the theartre story to bed, here is a picture of a drawing of a ninja

from a Japanese museum dated 1817.

 

[Gweilo]

Dont know what happened there

 

[Rusty B]

Kuroko - Wikipedia

Maybe my timeframe was off, as I haven't read it in ten years, but this discusses it: Kuroko - Wikipedia

 

[Tez3]

Lets just concentrate on Korea for now .

Oh let's not.

The assumptions of Westerners that all schools are hardcore in the East and more importantly how they view the culture through ADHD lenses of only related to martial arts.

This is you assuming you know what all 'Westerners' assume isn't.

I for example never was interested in Thai cuisine and only cared about MT until one day one of the gym members brough thome food cooked by his wife. Literally fell in love with Thai food and now I'm far more interested in Thai cuisine than MT. As well as Thai movies and other parts of Thai culture.

Oh gosh how frightfully about you this whole thread is, it's actually you lecturing, hectoring and telling us how awful we all are while you are the epitome of the perfect martial artist. I love that you come on here without knowing squat about anyone who posts here and what they do or know, I must reiterate you really are on the wrong site if all you want to do is bad mouth martial artists.

Btw if you want a cross culture experience try training TKD with the Gurkhas.

 

[Rusty B]

Oh let's not.

This is you assuming you know what all 'Westerners' assume isn't.

Come to think of it... I don't think it's limited to the Far East.

I mentioned earlier in this threat that as a child, I literally thought that China was a place where "everybody is kung fu fighting."

Hell, around that time, I thought that if you went to Ireland, you'd see nothing but a bunch of drunks fighting each other.

 

[Tez3]

Come to think of it... I don't think it's limited to the Far East.

I mentioned earlier in this threat that as a child, I literally thought that China was a place where "everybody is kung fu fighting."

Hell, around that time, I thought that if you went to Ireland, you'd see nothing but a bunch of drunks fighting each other.

Really? I was taught geography at school, and it's part of the national curriculum here and in Europe. We'd learn about other cultures in primary school ie from age four and half. Ireland was never about drunks fighting for us but of bombs, shootings and terrorism which has stopped to a certain extent but still happens.

 

[Rusty B]

Really? I was taught geography at school, and it's part of the national curriculum here and in Europe. We'd learn about other cultures in primary school ie from age four and half. Ireland was never about drunks fighting for us but of bombs, shootings and terrorism which has stopped to a certain extent but still happens.

On your side of the pond, it's going to be way different due to the geographical proximity between the UK and Ireland... and the intimate history between the two countries.

We're aware of the Troubles here as well, but the Troubles haven't defined the American perception of Ireland the way it may have for Brits.