Why do people think grappling arts always beat striking arts?

[Ironbear24]

Lived with Fabricio Werdum during his run in PRIDE, they trained together everyday with Werdum helping him with his bjj and Mirko helping Werdum with his striking. Don't know if Werdum ever bothered with giving him belts of any kind tho.

So he exposed to it but it didn't take it traditionally? Either way seemed to work out for him.

How about mark hunt?

 

[Hanzou]

So he exposed to it but it didn't take it traditionally? Either way seemed to work out for him.

How about mark hunt?

Considering that Hunt was able to get Fedor Emelianenko into a kimura during their fight, and that he has trained in multiple MMA gyms, I would say that there's a pretty good chance that Hunt has Bjj training.

 

[Ironbear24]

Considering that Hunt was able to get Fedor Emelianenko into a kimura during their fight, and that he has trained in multiple MMA gyms, I would say that there's a pretty good chance that Hunt has Bjj training.

His information just says kick boxing so it must not be accurate.

 

[Steve]

This thread makes me laugh for so many different reasons right now.

 

[Ironbear24]

Tito Ortiz, Randy couture,. Chance Williams, kazushi sakuraba, bas rutten.

From what I can see all their grappling comes from wrestling.

 

[Steve]

Wrestling is a subset of BJJ.

 

[Ironbear24]

Wrestling is a subset of BJJ.

You can do wrestling and not be doing bjj.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

This thread makes me laugh for so many different reasons right now.

I finally mustered the energy to read through it. It is an absolute, utter wreck, and I find it hilarious.

 

[Hanzou]

Tito Ortiz, Randy couture,. Chance Williams, kazushi sakuraba, bas rutten.

From what I can see all their grappling comes from wrestling.

Ortiz trained with Clebar Luciano, a Royler Gracie BB. Randy Couture has trained in Bjj though he has said that he pulls more of his grappling style from Catch Wrestling. Kazushi Sakuraba trained in Bjj under Christiano Marcello. Bas Rutten talks about his Bjj training pretty consistently in numerous interviews.

Who the hell is Chance Williams?

 

[Ironbear24]

Ortiz trained with Clebar Luciano, a Royler Gracie BB. Randy Couture has trained in Bjj though he has said that he pulls more of his grappling style from Catch Wrestling. Kazushi Sakuraba trained in Bjj under Christiano Marcello. Bas Rutten talks about his Bjj training pretty consistently in numerous interviews.

Who the hell is Chance Williams?

When I do research on them it just says wrestling, shoot wrestling and catch wrestling. For couture it says Greco Roman wrestling. Where do you get your information from?

As for interviews I will admit I don't watch them much.

 

[drop bear]

Brock lesner just got his blue belt.

Brock Lesnar Earns His Blue Belt In Jiu-Jitsu

 

[Ironbear24]

Brock lesner just got his blue belt.

Brock Lesnar Earns His Blue Belt In Jiu-Jitsu

Grats for Brock.

 

[Phobius]

In other words, grappling that comes from WC itself, not grappling that arrived to the art via cross-training.

EDIT: You know what. Feel how you feel. I believe in mixing and then we can agree to disagree.

Do not need to write a big post about how your opinion comes out as silly sometimes.

WC grappling is most likely not suited to beat a grappler on the ground. This is the reason why I train GJJ instead. So what kind of point are you trying to make?

You want to claim that just because the art has a anti-grappling or whatever to call it that is best suited against non-grapplers that it should just lie down and die out? Are you claiming it is inferior in stand-up fighting? Are you claiming a BJJ artist can beat any and all stand-up fights?

I just dont see what kind of point you want to make. MMA is not a proof, but it exists because mixing arts is sometimes a good idea. It is all about the style you have yourself. Not how pure your style is compared to a specific art. Better to mix all those colors together and make something unique for you.

 

[Phobius]

Considering that Hunt was able to get Fedor Emelianenko into a kimura during their fight, and that he has trained in multiple MMA gyms, I would say that there's a pretty good chance that Hunt has Bjj training.

Being so into this. You if anyone should know Kimura does not mean you know BJJ. In fact Kimura and variations of it has existed in wrestling and other arts as well. Just saying before it is used as proof of something.

 

[Hanzou]

EDIT: You know what. Feel how you feel. I believe in mixing and then we can agree to disagree.

Do not need to write a big post about how your opinion comes out as silly sometimes.

WC grappling is most likely not suited to beat a grappler on the ground. This is the reason why I train GJJ instead. So what kind of point are you trying to make?

You want to claim that just because the art has a anti-grappling or whatever to call it that is best suited against non-grapplers that it should just lie down and die out? Are you claiming it is inferior in stand-up fighting? Are you claiming a BJJ artist can beat any and all stand-up fights?

My original point was that Bjj was designed to deal with both skilled strikers and grapplers, and that it has stand up aspects.

My purpose in showing that WC vs Karate video was to showcase that even skilled strikers can end up on the ground and end up fighting like novices. Another good example is Boztepe vs W. Cheung and their little tussle at a demonstration. In other words, it's pretty good to know how to fight off the ground.

I just dont see what kind of point you want to make. MMA is not a proof, but it exists because mixing arts is sometimes a good idea. It is all about the style you have yourself. Not how pure your style is compared to a specific art. Better to mix all those colors together and make something unique for you.

I agree with that.

Being so into this. You if anyone should know Kimura does not mean you know BJJ. In fact Kimura and variations of it has existed in wrestling and other arts as well. Just saying before it is used as proof of something.

Yeah, but it's only called "Kimura" in Bjj and MMA. In Judo it's still called by its Japanese name. Hunt trains in MMA gyms, so clearly that's where he picked it up.

 

[Phobius]

My original point was that Bjj was designed to deal with both skilled strikers and grapplers, and that it has stand up aspects.

My purpose in showing that WC vs Karate video was to showcase that even skilled strikers can end up on the ground and end up fighting like novices. Another good example is Boztepe vs W. Cheung and their little tussle at a demonstration. In other words, it's pretty good to know how to fight off the ground.

True, which is why I think the "anti-grappling", hate that term, was added to WC because of needing something. As such it is not refined enough and would only work against unskilled grapplers. WC is an art that I personally think sadly prepares you for grappling in such a way that you easily trick yourself to thinking you can handle a grappler in a clinch. This of course is not doable unless you learn how a grappler would work, and by testing it against realistic movements and attacks.

With time I think that more realistic training will be integrated into WC, but as my sifu said (and not a direct quote), why invent something when it already exists in BJJ/GJJ.

Most WC on YouTube that come in contact with a grappler seem to be standing still. Ironic since WC being a close combat art should never be standing still when someone is within range. Footwork is key and it seems quite a lot of chunners on YouTube (false representation of chunners perhaps) lack footwork altogether.

As for that video, there are many possible reasons why his grappling skill is even subpar compared with an already potentially subpar grappling training in WC. (Not saying someones WC school here have not improved and perfect grappling techniques/concepts). I simply do not know why that is. As for Boztepe and W Cheung, Boztepe put a lot more attention to ground fighting after that event, realizing its importance.

It was at a time when some chunners were growing too confident with their skills while standing up I believe. Neglecting the rest.

I agree with that.

Alright, this was my big concern that you were against or degrading the value of it. If not, I am cool.

Yeah, but it's only called "Kimura" in Bjj and MMA. In Judo it's still called by its Japanese name. Hunt trains in MMA gyms, so clearly that's where he picked it up.

Agreed, especially given that the name is taken from the source of the technique when first losing to it if I do not remember incorrectly.

EDIT: Forgot my question but did he call it "kimura" in that case? If he did then that would serve as proof indeed that he knew BJJ or had at least taken some technique from BJJ.

Or he called it Kimura so the world would understand what he is talking about since after all is the name used in MMA mostly for that technique.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Well yes, just like a TKD practitioner would be offended if someone said that TKD practitioners only know how to throw kicks.

I am a TKD practitioner and I am not offended by a statement such as that.

You have to be standing in order to take someone to the ground.

Not necessarily.

 

[Ironbear24]

Kimbo slice. Yoshihiro Akiyama . Fedor Emelianenko. Hidehiko Yoshida. Kazuo Misaki.

From what I can see none of those guys have any Brazilian jiu jitsu and have done very well in mma. Still though, your point is clear it is a very common art in it.

I think I would be fine without it but since my sifu is a current blue belt in Gracie Jiu jitsu I won't object to learning it. I can also peruse furthering my Judo at a later time.

 

[Buka]

I wonder what Master Ken would say about all this?

 

[Ironbear24]

I wonder what Master Ken would say about all this?

Attack the groin.