Why do people think grappling arts always beat striking arts?

[Phobius]

Why would that be talking out of ignorance if we were trained to deal with that situation?

I think he meant you saying how someone would act if they tried to kill you. That if you have not experienced it, how would you know? > This is what he meant I assume.

 

[Hanzou]

Actually it is opinion. There was nothing factual about it. A clip about two guys fighting that goes to the ground. For all we know the guy might know more than he wanted to show, or missed a lot of practise in terms of ground fighting. Maybe he felt he did not need groundgame and ignored it. Maybe his sifu did not teach it because he thought time was better spent standing up. Or his sifu simply had no groundgame to teach.

A judgement based on a video is purely opinion. Bringing back the question, you honestly think YouTube can be considered proof?

Well again, do you have some examples of native WC grappling to counter it?

Interesting. So how much time do you train to punch or kick in BJJ? I mean, after all at this point in the evolution that is a requirement is it not?

Quite a bit actually. There are kicks and punches in Bjj, however all are designed around grappling. Bjj itself is designed to counter strikers.

There is no traditional Wing Chun, just like there no longer is a traditional BJJ. It is constantly evolving. People may argue with me but things do evolve.

While the techniques are evolving in Bjj, the more traditional styles of Bjj still exist, and those styles tend to be focused more on self defense and street fighting applications.

And what are you expecting from a groundfighting system in TMA? You want them to be BJJ? Newsflash since you have no logic at all in your statements, 99% of the stuff you do in BJJ is not applicable to self defense unless you are attacked by a grappler. (That 1% is enought to protect against almost all attacks)

That's quite false. Again, Bjj is designed to neutralize strikers as well as grapplers.

Many TMA's have some limited groundwork to allow them to survive well against a non-skilled attacker. That is the goal and what they do is simply something that fits with their training and is easily taught and practised. Problem with all no matter what it is, it is easily destroyed by a grappler. Here comes the newsflash, nothing can beat a grappler unless you spend equal amount of time training grappling. You do not become a better fighter at someones game unless you train more than they do.

I'd like to just point out that Bjj's goal is to allow you to survive against both an unskilled and skilled attacker.

Well given you learn punching and kicking in your BJJ class I am sure you dont need to think much about mixing.

You don't, but some choose to in order to be more well rounded.

 

[Ironbear24]

If bjj has striking in it then why do so many people in it take other arts to be more "well rounded ?"

If it has both as you said then there should be no reason to seek out other styles to become well rounded.

 

[Ironbear24]

I think he meant you saying how someone would act if they tried to kill you. That if you have not experienced it, how would you know? > This is what he meant I assume.

Ok well since I won't know until he reiterates what he means I won't reply. No use in trying to figure out and possibly misunderstand.

 

[Steve]

Why would that be talking out of ignorance if we were trained to deal with that situation?

How do you know if you've never been in that situation? I mean, ignorance is a lack of experience or knowledge. Soooo... if you have no experience with people trying to kill you, you are ____________. (that's a fill in the blank problem)

 

[Ironbear24]

How do you know if you've never been in that situation? I mean, ignorance is a lack of experience or knowledge. Soooo... if you have no experience with people trying to kill you, you are ____________. (that's a fill in the blank problem)

Do you not understand the point of training? It is so you will be able to deal with situations, so you will be ready for them.

I have been attacked by a guy with a box cutter before and another time a guy with a pocket knife. I am still alive so I must have done something right.

 

[Phobius]

Well again, do you have some examples of native WC grappling to counter it?

Then you need to define what is native WC. I do not understand the term. No such thing exist in my view except if you say like "10 years ago" then I can figure out how they did WC 10 years ago. But that is not today.

And grappling to counter what? I was talking about self defense and clearly stated none of it would work against a grappler. Just like no grappler would be able to stand up and kick their way to victory. Or even punching. You may think they would but it is just a silly belief.

We used to do those things and skipped them in order to learn something that is better. Does not mean those things could not get you out of a bad scenario on the ground against an average joe. But they were only designed to get you standing again.

Quite a bit actually. There are kicks and punches in Bjj, however all are designed around grappling. Bjj itself is designed to counter strikers.

Well yea, there are ground techniques in WC. Heck some are so terrible, and quite old now as well thank god, that you would be able to laugh yourself to sleep looking at them. Same for those punches and kicks. It is not the norm that BJJ practitioners actually learn to kick and punch. Just because they do some similar techniques does not mean they know them, just like WC does not know groundfighting because they do some crazy belief down there.

While the techniques are evolving in Bjj, the more traditional styles of Bjj still exist, and those styles tend to be focused more on self defense and street fighting applications.

You do not know your own history? There are techniques added to BJJ all the time. Even into the self defense and street fighting focused kind. Maybe not "ALL the time" but if something works it gets added.

That's quite false. Again, Bjj is designed to neutralize strikers as well as grapplers.

WC is designed to stand on two feet. BJJ is designed to neutralize strikers. I feel sad for all those arts that are not designed to win anything.

Besides that was not the point, the point was that only a limited amount of all techniques and moves done in BJJ will ever be needed in a self defense scenario. The rest is to survive against grapplers or someone that knows at least somewhat what they are doing on the ground.

I'd like to just point out that Bjj's goal is to allow you to survive against both an unskilled and skilled attacker.

All arts have that as a goal. Does not mean you are always successful. Often the outcome is determined by who is the better fighter, and the better fighter is the one training more and harder usually. And being better prepared.

There are some schools in BJJ that train against real punching, just like there are schools that think they themselves can learn real punching in an hour. Not to mention kicking.

You don't, but some choose to in order to be more well rounded.

Yea, this was not at all wishful thinking? You mean to say the whole MMA business people would just as well be pure BJJ but knowing other arts is just for fun, it holds no value to fighting learning to fight standing?

 

[JP3]

I have done it to other karateka. If you fail to do it, it is also still safe as you still blocked it.

So.. the answer is no, you've not tried that with a boxer. Boxers can be greased-lightning fast, they don't lose their balance easily just because their hands get blocked on the 1st 2nd 3rd... etc., or even if they miss totally, still on balance.

And... I am reminded in one of the other threads, someone asking "Why do people even train to defend against wrist grabs nowadays?"

Well, the answer is, so they can deal with ironBears skillzzz... I'm glad I figured this out, finally.

 

[Hanzou]

If bjj has striking in it then why do so many people in it take other arts to be more "well rounded ?"

If it has both as you said then there should be no reason to seek out other styles to become well rounded.

There really isn't a reason beyond personal preference. Some prefer to take a striking art to compliment their grappling, while some are perfectly happy only knowing Bjj.

 

[Ironbear24]

Well, the answer is, so they can deal with ironBears skillzzz... I'm glad I figured this out, finally.

0_o huh?

What does that have to do with this thread?

 

[Ironbear24]

So.. the answer is no, you've not tried that with a boxer. Boxers can be greased-lightning fast, they don't lose their balance easily just because their hands get blocked on the 1st 2nd 3rd... etc., or even if they miss totally, still on balance.

What difference does it make what the style the person you do it to has?

Karatekas can punch very fast and so can a boxer. The stuff you mentioned are not exclusive to just boxers.

 

[Ironbear24]

There really isn't a reason beyond personal preference. Some prefer to take a striking art to compliment their grappling, while some are perfectly happy only knowing Bjj.

There is a difference between personal preference and to become well rounded.

I took some tai chi for personal preference, not to be well rounded.

 

[Steve]

Do you not understand the point of training? It is so you will be able to deal with situations, so you will be ready for them.

I have been attacked by a guy with a box cutter before and another time a guy with a pocket knife. I am still alive so I must have done something right.

I think I understand the point of training. do you understand the difference between training for something and actually doing that thing?

I was attacked by a guy with a knife once, too. I had no training at the time. I think I'm still alive so.... What does that mean?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

"Why do people even train to defend against wrist grabs nowadays?"

This is why and I call it "octopus" strategy. The moment that you can control both of your opponent's wrists, the moment that the striking game is over and the grappling game will start.

 

[Ironbear24]

I think I understand the point of training. do you understand the difference between training for something and actually doing that thing?

I was attacked by a guy with a knife once, too. I had no training at the time. I think I'm still alive so.... What does that mean?

It means we have both done something right.

 

[Steve]

It means we have both done something right.

really? do you think it's possible for someone to do everything wrong and still survive an attack? i do.

 

[Hanzou]

Then you need to define what is native WC. I do not understand the term. No such thing exist in my view except if you say like "10 years ago" then I can figure out how they did WC 10 years ago. But that is not today.

In other words, grappling that comes from WC itself, not grappling that arrived to the art via cross-training.

And grappling to counter what? I was talking about self defense and clearly stated none of it would work against a grappler. Just like no grappler would be able to stand up and kick their way to victory. Or even punching. You may think they would but it is just a silly belief.

So you're saying that no one has gotten a lucky punch and knocked someone out?

Well yea, there are ground techniques in WC. Heck some are so terrible, and quite old now as well thank god, that you would be able to laugh yourself to sleep looking at them.

So where can I see this WC grappling?

Same for those punches and kicks. It is not the norm that BJJ practitioners actually learn to kick and punch. Just because they do some similar techniques does not mean they know them, just like WC does not know groundfighting because they do some crazy belief down there.

Actually it was the norm in old school Bjj. For example, the Paizo(sp?) is a kick used to determine range, distract, or attack the legs. The ground and pound currently common in MMA comes directly from Bjj where it was used to either knock someone out from the mount, or force a roll over into a submission. Head butting, elbows, heel kicks, and upward kicks from guard are there as well.

If you need to see examples of this, check out the Gracie in action tapes, and Royce in the original UFCs.

You do not know your own history? There are techniques added to BJJ all the time. Even into the self defense and street fighting focused kind. Maybe not "ALL the time" but if something works it gets added.

Where did I say that techniques weren't added?

WC is designed to stand on two feet. BJJ is designed to neutralize strikers. I feel sad for all those arts that are not designed to win anything.

What?

Besides that was not the point, the point was that only a limited amount of all techniques and moves done in BJJ will ever be needed in a self defense scenario. The rest is to survive against grapplers or someone that knows at least somewhat what they are doing on the ground.

Because it's designed to deal with skill and unskilled opponents. A martial art designed to only deal with only unskilled opponents is pretty dubious wouldn't you agree?

Yea, this was not at all wishful thinking? You mean to say the whole MMA business people would just as well be pure BJJ but knowing other arts is just for fun, it holds no value to fighting learning to fight standing?

No one enters MMA without knowing some variation of Bjj.

Where you get your striking is totally up to you.

 

[Ironbear24]

really? do you think it's possible for someone to do everything wrong and still survive an attack? i do.

Can you please get to your point? If you "did wrong" as you put it then your attacker must have done things wrong his or herself.

 

[Ironbear24]

No one enters MMA without knowing some variation of Bjj.

Wrestling, Judo, are both great and are not bjj.

 

[Steve]

Can you please get to your point? If you "did wrong" as you put it then your attacker must have done things wrong his or herself.

In other words, grappling that comes from WC itself, not grappling that arrived to the art via cross-training.



So you're saying that no one has gotten a lucky punch and knocked someone out?




So where can I see this WC grappling?



Actually it was the norm in old school Bjj. For example, the Paizo(sp?) is a kick used to determine range, distract, or attack the legs. The ground and pound currently common in MMA comes directly from Bjj where it was used to either knock someone out from the mount, or force a roll over into a submission. Head butting, elbows, heel kicks, and upward kicks from guard are there as well.

If you need to see examples of this, check out the Gracie in action tapes, and Royce in the original UFCs.



Where did I say that techniques weren't added?





What?



Because it's designed to deal with skill and unskilled opponents. A martial art designed to only deal with only unskilled opponents is pretty dubious wouldn't you agree?





No one enters MMA without knowing some variation of Bjj.

Where you get your striking is totally up to you.

and really, the moment we find some aspect of anfi-grappling hat makes sense, Bjj would happily steal it and incorporate if into the style. we are practical like that.