What do you call an art that integrates striking and grappling?

[Steve]

I don't recall what area of the South you are in. Where I grew up in South Carolina (about 45 minutes from where I now live), they are definitely not over it.

Steve didn't actually start this making any kind of racial statement. He started out just pointing out that the term has - at least in some areas - a racial connotation. Which it does.

Also, we can say things to friends and families that would be taken differently of said by (or to) someone we don’t know well.

And “thug” is a word that means different things to different people. And has for a long time. Saw a guy from Appalachia NC get himself into a lot of trouble in the barracks back in the 80s when he called a black dude a thug. Got his *** handed to him. Maybe he should have just explained that they were taking it wrong.

 

[Koryuhoka]

[We - People Of Color, have a grasp of the "covert" or subtle racism. And words like "thug" and "criminal element"... even "entitled" is often used as covert terms for us. Definitely. People want to erase the idea of racism by using terms like "race card" or insist that racism doesn't exist - which is the most ridiculous thing I ever heard in my life.. but it is more insulting than anything. It is insulting to deny us the reality that we live on a daily basis]

Karate, in its earliest form is a synthesis of "ti", the original Okinawan Art, which was purely a GRAPPLING art, and techniques introduced to the Okinawans through the Cultural Interchange with China that took place around 1394.

This is actual history and he who "haha'd" my original entry needs to get passed his elementary school level training and grow in knowledge and truth.

Okinawan Karate is a JUTSU - "skill" in its original form and was toned down to what most of it is today.. a shadow of its former self. It consists of Newaza AND Kansetsuwaza - Ground technique and Joint technique.

Most importantly, no karateka who studies the deeper meanings of the art needs to prove this to anyone. But in a controlled environment with rules, the meathead would take advantage. Try maliciously attacking someone who has been properly trained in correctness of technique and skill, and you will see the truth.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Karate, in its earliest form is a synthesis of "ti", the original Okinawan Art, which was purely a GRAPPLING art, and techniques introduced to the Okinawans through the Cultural Interchange with China that took place around 1394.

Okinawa had a native form of wrestling/grappling, but from what I've read, the exact nature of this particular skill is unknown having died out long ago, so its inclusion in early toude is impossible to verify, or even give reason to strongly suspect.

The Bubishi, composed most likely in the early/mid 1800's, shows a throw or two and several takedowns, but no wrestling as such. Plus, "ti/te" refers to "hand" which to me hints at striking and grabbing, not tying someone up on the ground.

So I think calling "ti" a "purely grappling art" is making a leap too far.

To be sure, early karate (toude) had takedowns, joint locks, and especially other techniques involving grabbing and pulling (being mostly used in conjunction with striking.) These did lose importance as karate began to be publicly taught in Japan (and Okinawa to some extent) due to 1. safety for the school kids, and 2. so as not to compete with the already well established judo/jujustu art. However, they were still taught in Okinawa to the master's private students, and now finding their way back into mainstream traditional karate.

 

[dvcochran]

Hey, you know. I was mistaken. I encourage you to use the term extensively.

Just, please... have someone record it. Go call some folks you don't know, who aren't your relatives, a thug. Call them boy or kid. Just, please, post the video. I would really get a kick out of seeing it.

Say the wrong thing to anyone from anywhere and you will find out what they think of it. You truly do not get that?

I included what I said before for the benefit of your memory. No one is saying to looking for trouble. That is easy whether you use derogatory terms or not.

 

[dvcochran]

I don't recall what area of the South you are in. Where I grew up in South Carolina (about 45 minutes from where I now live), they are definitely not over it.

Steve didn't actually start this making any kind of racial statement. He started out just pointing out that the term has - at least in some areas - a racial connotation. Which it does.

I am in Middle TN. So are you saying in SC you walk around on pins and needles when around black folk? Or vice-versa?
I would say this is only true of the people here (white or black) that have other circumstances going on (criminal and such).
It is a choice. Some unnecessarily but willingly wallow in the indoctrination. Some keep the indoctrination going (aka Steve). That squarely puts the wrong doing on both sides.

We as a country have to realize we have much bigger issues and enemies from within and come together. Bickering over ancient, irrelevant things is doing more damage than I can say.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I am in Middle TN. So are you saying in SC you walk around on pins and needles when around black folk? Or vice-versa?
I would say this is only true of the people here (white or black) that have other circumstances going on (criminal and such).
It is a choice. Some unnecessarily but willingly wallow in the indoctrination. Some keep the indoctrination going (aka Steve). That squarely puts the wrong doing on both sides.

We as a country have to realize we have much bigger issues and enemies from within and come together. Bickering over ancient, irrelevant things is doing more damage than I can say.

That's an extreme statement that reflects nothing I said. Here's some reality. I grew up next door to an active member of the KKK. Sheet and hood hanging in the garage, rebel flag flying in the yard, etc. Gene was mostly a "nice guy" if you didn't pay attention to the racism and sexism (the latter was less overt). This in a relatively nice middle-class neighborhood in an agricultural area.

It's more subtle than that in most places now, but you can still see some pretty open racism in rural areas. It's not that hard to find.

None of this is really tied to other criminal activities in my experience. There are just some racist bastards out there.

 

[dvcochran]

[We - People Of Color, have a grasp of the "covert" or subtle racism. And words like "thug" and "criminal element"... even "entitled" is often used as covert terms for us. Definitely. People want to erase the idea of racism by using terms like "race card" or insist that racism doesn't exist - which is the most ridiculous thing I ever heard in my life.. but it is more insulting than anything. It is insulting to deny us the reality that we live on a daily basis]

Karate, in its earliest form is a synthesis of "ti", the original Okinawan Art, which was purely a GRAPPLING art, and techniques introduced to the Okinawans through the Cultural Interchange with China that took place around 1394.

This is actual history and he who "haha'd" my original entry needs to get passed his elementary school level training and grow in knowledge and truth.

Okinawan Karate is a JUTSU - "skill" in its original form and was toned down to what most of it is today.. a shadow of its former self. It consists of Newaza AND Kansetsuwaza - Ground technique and Joint technique.

Most importantly, no karateka who studies the deeper meanings of the art needs to prove this to anyone. But in a controlled environment with rules, the meathead would take advantage. Try maliciously attacking someone who has been properly trained in correctness of technique and skill, and you will see the truth.

I did a search to try and find out who said your opening quote but came back with zero. Who did you quote? And may I ask why?

 

[dvcochran]

Slang usage doesn't always make it to the dictionary. There are definitely areas where the term "thug life" refers to a specific subset of a specific racial group.

True enough but a term that is more often used as a term of endearment by said subset(s). Again a two way street. Nothing more than a poor choice of a gang/club title.

It is a never ending rabbit trail. For example Daft Punk sounds like a self imposed derogatory name for a band. However 'Daft' is an acronym for Dogs, Androids, Fireman, Tomato's. So a person has to know the background meaning.
That said, I am not aware of an acronym for the word 'thug'.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

True enough but a term that is more often used as a term of endearment by said subset(s). Again a two way street. Nothing more than a poor choice of a gang/club title.

It is a never ending rabbit trail. For example Daft Punk sounds like a self imposed derogatory name for a band. However 'Daft' is an acronym for Dogs, Androids, Fireman, Tomato's. So a person has to know the background meaning.
That said, I am not aware of an acronym for the word 'thug'.

It's true some terms are used familiarly, but seen as insults from outside that familiar group. I think that's what Steve was getting at in his post. Remember that he didn't raise a real stink with that - just supplied some context for someone outside the US that the term can be seen as less-than-friendly across racial lines in some places in the US.

 

[dvcochran]

It's true some terms are used familiarly, but seen as insults from outside that familiar group. I think that's what Steve was getting at in his post. Remember that he didn't raise a real stink with that - just supplied some context for someone outside the US that the term can be seen as less-than-friendly across racial lines in some places in the US.

If only the intentions were that noble. Overt undertones is such an understatement.

I do not recall this site ever needing a schoolmarm.

Impression usually needs a trigger. He is the worst instigator of such triggers that I have ever seen on here.

 

[Hanzou]

I think the prevailing belief here is that a "thug" is someone who has likely been in a fight or two (or more) and so has some actual experience applying anything they have learned. In contrast, an intended victim who has some training, but has never been in a fight, will just need to hope for the best. This is where I wish we had the data to look into it, as my theory is there would be no statistical difference between untrained and trained in a compliant TMA style training model with regards to crime.

Unless you have in mind someone who routinely applies their training. I would agree with that, but somehow, I don't think that's what you have in mind.



Hm. See above. I agree with your high level, philosophical statement here. But I would guess that you and I have very different things in mind when it comes to what type of training constitutes "adult level with a real understanding of how to use it."

I would largely agree that if you're training in a very compliant manner, or you're doing nothing but katas, your fighting skills are probably slightly better than an untrained person who jogs. Sorry, that's simply the reality. And yeah, there are people out there who have been getting into physical altercations their entire lives, so they have experience with dealing with and dishing out violence.

I often times raise an eyebrow when someone says that their martial art of choice trains them how to fight untrained people. What does that mean exactly? Like your ancient martial art from the mountains of Asia were designed for you to bully people, or did your sifu/sensei tell you that the "thug" you encounter (who probably grew up fighting mentally and physically for survival every day of their lives) will have poor fighting skills?

BS either way.

 

[dvcochran]

I would largely agree that if you're training in a very compliant manner, or you're doing nothing but katas, your fighting skills are probably slightly better than an untrained person who jogs. Sorry, that's simply the reality. And yeah, there are people out there who have been getting into physical altercations their entire lives, so they have experience with dealing with and dishing out violence.

I often times raise an eyebrow when someone says that their martial art of choice trains them how to fight untrained people. What does that mean exactly? Like your ancient martial art from the mountains of Asia were designed for you to bully people, or did your sifu/sensei tell you that the "thug" you encounter (who probably grew up fighting mentally and physically for survival every day of their lives) will have poor fighting skills?

BS either way.

Well you are grossly crossing over timelines with your agrument but I do agree in part.

When kata/forms/poomsae, even patterns are taught and practiced correctly they have a degree of SD value. Unfortunately this isn't done with regularity. I excluded the word patterns because this is the chief reason they do not work. When taught as a 'pattern' only it is just a group of disparate movements . More like an organized dance pattern.

I fully agree resistance training and sparring must be included. But then there are so many intangibles you are not discussing (either by not knowing about them or choosing to exclude them) that are taught and trained when forms are learned the correct way.
Yes, it can be argued that it is a longer and more indirect path to carnal fighting but again, there are tons of intangibles that are taught in the process.

 

[Steve]

I would largely agree that if you're training in a very compliant manner, or you're doing nothing but katas, your fighting skills are probably slightly better than an untrained person who jogs. Sorry, that's simply the reality. And yeah, there are people out there who have been getting into physical altercations their entire lives, so they have experience with dealing with and dishing out violence.

I often times raise an eyebrow when someone says that their martial art of choice trains them how to fight untrained people. What does that mean exactly? Like your ancient martial art from the mountains of Asia were designed for you to bully people, or did your sifu/sensei tell you that the "thug" you encounter (who probably grew up fighting mentally and physically for survival every day of their lives) will have poor fighting skills?

BS either way.

I actually think that if you train in an impractical way, you can actually be less capable of managing a dangerous situation. Learning to fight and defend yourself from someone who has never been in a fight creates a disconnect between what you think you can do and what you can do. So, you think you can fight better than X, but you really can't. And that belief leads to some faulty decision making.

It's like deciding to walk across a sketchy looking bridge. Your eyes tell you it won't hold your weight. Your instincts tell you it won't hold your weight. Everyone else avoids that bridge because it's obvious to them that it won't hold your weight. But some guy says, "I'm an expert. Everyone else just doesn't know what they're talking about. I've studied the art of crossing bridges for 20 years. Don't listen to those engineers, I learned from some guy who learned from the builder of this bridge, and he was a structural engineer. And besides, it doesn't need to hold an elephant... just you."

Over time, that guy convinces you to believe him, because he's an expert, so you actually start arguing with everyone else who tries to warn you. And then one day, you need to actually cross the bridge. So, off you go, and in that moment before you fall, you think, "I was mistaken, and that guy didn't know what he was talking abouuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuut." <splat>

 

[Steve]

True enough but a term that is more often used as a term of endearment by said subset(s). Again a two way street. Nothing more than a poor choice of a gang/club title.

It is a never ending rabbit trail. For example Daft Punk sounds like a self imposed derogatory name for a band. However 'Daft' is an acronym for Dogs, Androids, Fireman, Tomato's. So a person has to know the background meaning.
That said, I am not aware of an acronym for the word 'thug'.

First, you listen to Daft Punk? Huh. My oldest is 25 and they were one of his favorites. We listened to a lot of Daft Punk over the years. And you're right... to a fan of Daft Punk, the word "daft" can mean something more than it does to most people. It means silly to everyone, but to a fan of the band, it also refers to their collection of videos from the early 2000's.

As you say, we don't always know the background meanings of a word. That's exactly the same point I was making.
If you are from Australia (or apparently parts of the American South), you may not be aware that some folks don't appreciate being called a thug, and the word means things you may not intend. As you say, it's good "to know the background meaning."

 

[Hanzou]

Well you are grossly crossing over timelines with your agrument but I do agree in part.

When kata/forms/poomsae, even patterns are taught and practiced correctly they have a degree of SD value. Unfortunately this isn't done with regularity. I excluded the word patterns because this is the chief reason they do not work. When taught as a 'pattern' only it is just a group of disparate movements . More like an organized dance pattern.

I fully agree resistance training and sparring must be included. But then there are so many intangibles you are not discussing (either by not knowing about them or choosing to exclude them) that are taught and trained when forms are learned the correct way.
Yes, it can be argued that it is a longer and more indirect path to carnal fighting but again, there are tons of intangibles that are taught in the process.

Yet the most effective martial arts tend to be the ones that have dropped kata/forms entirely.

EDIT: You disagree? That's rather amusing.

 

[isshinryuronin]

That's an extreme statement that reflects nothing I said. Here's some reality. I grew up next door to an active member of the KKK. Sheet and hood hanging in the garage, rebel flag flying in the yard, etc. Gene was mostly a "nice guy" if you didn't pay attention to the racism and sexism (the latter was less overt). This in a relatively nice middle-class neighborhood in an agricultural area.

It's more subtle than that in most places now, but you can still see some pretty open racism in rural areas. It's not that hard to find.

None of this is really tied to other criminal activities in my experience. There are just some racist bastards out there.

I lived in upstate SC, rural hill country, for a number of years. It's a different world there for sure. Outside of town you saw the occasional stars and bars flying, and there was a KKK curio shop downtown. There were some racists, but little overt racism. When we bought our house, the lawyer was surprised I wanted my wife's name on the title as well. So, a little behind the times.

Everyone had a truck (except city boy, me) and of course, firearms. A church on every other block and a Waffle House was always just around the corner. Lots of land, farmed or hunted, often being in the family for a century or two. There was a connection to it that is hard for city people to appreciate. Your great granddaddy worked it, and now you. A vacation seldom took one more than a couple hours drive.

People would go far out of their way to lend a hand if you needed help or directions, like a stranger driving several miles to lead you to the right road. Hard to tell who had money and who didn't. Everyone drove pickups, had little jewelry, wore overalls, and had modest homes. Wealth was not advertised and shown off. Rich and poor lived in the same neighborhoods. Very low crime rate (did I mention everyone was armed?) Everyone agreed, "We could use more rain."

Hills, woods, lakes, streams and waterfalls. Hard to get caught up with BS politics, political correctness, finger pointing, over sensitivity, etc., in that kind of environment. Aside from my reminiscing, I guess the point is not getting caught up in your own little world, not seeing the forest for the trees. It seems too many people invent or pursue ways to be offended. Why can't I call someone a "thug," without some "subset" group claiming that word for their own victimhood. Soon, if I call someone a "moron" another subset may lay claim to that word, deciding to change the meaning, regardless how valid that description is.

I'll just go and practice some "kata" now, and hopefully will not offend a subset group claiming I'm doing useless, outdated movements that insult real martial arts.

 

[Steve]

I lived in upstate SC, rural hill country, for a number of years. It's a different world there for sure. Outside of town you saw the occasional stars and bars flying, and there was a KKK curio shop downtown. There were some racists, but little overt racism. When we bought our house, the lawyer was surprised I wanted my wife's name on the title as well. So, a little behind the times.

Everyone had a truck (except city boy, me) and of course, firearms. A church on every other block and a Waffle House was always just around the corner. Lots of land, farmed or hunted, often being in the family for a century or two. There was a connection to it that is hard for city people to appreciate. Your great granddaddy worked it, and now you. A vacation seldom took one more than a couple hours drive.

People would go far out of their way to lend a hand if you needed help or directions, like a stranger driving several miles to lead you to the right road. Hard to tell who had money and who didn't. Everyone drove pickups, had little jewelry, wore overalls, and had modest homes. Wealth was not advertised and shown off. Rich and poor lived in the same neighborhoods. Very low crime rate (did I mention everyone was armed?) Everyone agreed, "We could use more rain."

Hills, woods, lakes, streams and waterfalls. Hard to get caught up with BS politics, political correctness, finger pointing, over sensitivity, etc., in that kind of environment. Aside from my reminiscing, I guess the point is not getting caught up in your own little world, not seeing the forest for the trees. It seems too many people invent or pursue ways to be offended. Why can't I call someone a "thug," without some "subset" group claiming that word for their own victimhood. Soon, if I call someone a "moron" another subset may lay claim to that word, deciding to change the meaning, regardless how valid that description is.

I'll just go and practice some "kata" now, and hopefully will not offend a subset group claiming I'm doing useless, outdated movements that insult real martial arts.

Appreciate the note. Just to re-orient the discussion a little, the point isn't philosophical; it's practical. Should you think about whether the words you use are insulting to someone else? Maybe and maybe not.

More to the point, if you do say something to someone that offends them (whether you mean anything or not), you could very well find yourself dealing with some very real world repercussions. You understand the culture of your people in your area, and everything you say may be true where you are now. But I never said or meant that everyone should be offended by the term. I said something like, "Hey, just know that in some areas, that means something else."

Take for example, @dvcochran. He's very prickly, and takes offense very quickly. When you even hint at something that he disagrees with, he pings off the chart. Clearly, I offend him. Deeply. He can't let it go. At this point, I just mostly ignore it. For the sake of this topic, though, it's a perfect case in point. Everyone is part of some subset group, and everyone has things that bother them. I do. You do, too, if you think about it. And Just consider this. We're still talking about this because he was offended by my post. To the point he's trying to stir the pot in other threads where I've posted, as well. And now I have to deal with it.

So, for my part, the question isn't whether that "should" be the case. It is the case. It's human nature. We are bothered by some things and not by others, and what really, deeply offends you may not be a big deal to me, at all. And vice versa.

In that spirit, as a public service announcement, some folks are bothered by the term (and the perceived subtext) of "thug." You may not have any problem with it, but that won't matter at all if you unwittingly offend the wrong person.

 

[dvcochran]

Appreciate the note. Just to re-orient the discussion a little, the point isn't philosophical; it's practical. Should you think about whether the words you use are insulting to someone else? Maybe and maybe not.

More to the point, if you do say something to someone that offends them (whether you mean anything or not), you could very well find yourself dealing with some very real world repercussions. You understand the culture of your people in your area, and everything you say may be true where you are now. But I never said or meant that everyone should be offended by the term. I said something like, "Hey, just know that in some areas, that means something else."

Take for example, @dvcochran. He's very prickly, and takes offense very quickly. When you even hint at something that he disagrees with, he pings off the chart. Clearly, I offend him. Deeply. He can't let it go. At this point, I just mostly ignore it. For the sake of this topic, though, it's a perfect case in point. Everyone is part of some subset group, and everyone has things that bother them. I do. You do, too, if you think about it. And Just consider this. We're still talking about this because he was offended by my post. To the point he's trying to stir the pot in other threads where I've posted, as well. And now I have to deal with it.

So, for my part, the question isn't whether that "should" be the case. It is the case. It's human nature. We are bothered by some things and not by others, and what really, deeply offends you may not be a big deal to me, at all. And vice versa.

In that spirit, as a public service announcement, some folks are bothered by the term (and the perceived subtext) of "thug." You may not have any problem with it, but that won't matter at all if you unwittingly offend the wrong person.

Sooo, you respond to someone else's thread to comment about me comment about you. That makes perfect sense.
Clearly, you heard nothing isshinryuronin said in his posts, which I thought was spot on.

Offended is not the correct term. Conscious would be more correct. Prickly could be accurate when someone is as grating as you can be.
What seems to escape you is how often you make knee jerk and outright incorrect statements you make; clearly to invoke reaction. This is what I am on the Offensive for; not offended by.
And I am the bad guy?

Like I said, I do not ever remember this site needing a schoolmarm, especially one as biased as you.

 

[Steve]

Sooo, you respond to someone else's thread to comment about me comment about you. That makes perfect sense.
Clearly, you heard nothing isshinryuronin said in his posts, which I thought was spot on.

Offended is not the correct term. Conscious would be more correct. Prickly could be accurate when someone is as grating as you can be.
What seems to escape you is how often you make knee jerk and outright incorrect statements you make; clearly to invoke reaction. This is what I am on the Offensive for; not offended by.
And I am the bad guy?

Like I said, I do not ever remember this site needing a schoolmarm, especially one as biased as you.

If you would just take a moment, stop posting when you're angry, and think about what I actually said (vs what you think I meant), we agree on this more than we disagree. You're saying I wrote something that is "outright incorrect." What did I say in this thread that has gotten you so wound up? I've tried to highlight how what you're saying is very consistent with what I said. But you're literally doing what you say we shouldn't do.

 

[dvcochran]

If you would just take a moment, stop posting when you're angry, and think about what I actually said (vs what you think I meant), we agree on this more than we disagree. You're saying I wrote something that is "outright incorrect." What did I say in this thread that has gotten you so wound up? I've tried to highlight how what you're saying is very consistent with what I said. But you're literally doing what you say we shouldn't do.

Why in the world would you think I am angry? That is just weird.
Your inferences are what I reacted in your original post. Dropping hints of meaning that can leave an bad impression on people.