Who is against this?

[Touch Of Death]

I beg to differ on that. Seems like anytime I pick up the paper, someone is stating that due to the over crowding, the inmates should be offered help before prison time.



So Harvard should let people attend for free?

Mike

Just cuz you read somthing in the paper does not mean the public will actually vote to throw money at it. And I think the first two years of college should be universaly free. This would include all the remedial training to get you to the starting point. We are the richest nation on earth, by the way.
Sean

 

[MJS]

Just cuz you read somthing in the paper does not mean the public will actually vote to throw money at it.

Sean, you made a pretty solid statement when you said:

The public does not believe the prisoners deserve rehabilitation and so they will limit it as much as possible.

While the things in the paper should be taken with a grain of salt, the fact remains there is at least a split...some saying yes and some saying no.

And I think the first two years of college should be universaly free.

Please explain why?

This would include all the remedial training to get you to the starting point. We are the richest nation on earth, by the way.
Sean

Remedial training?? Don't you think that the remedial training should take place before college?? If someone can't read or write, why are they progressing grade after grade??

 

[jks9199]

An emphatic yes.
sean

Then we're going to have to agree to disagree...

I busted my butt to pay for college. As a result, I valued it more than many classmates. For example, one fellow student actually complained once that the teacher's assignments in the course were cutting into his golf game... This as I was working midnights, going to school, and working additional jobs. No... I wasn't sympathetic.

But even beyond my personal bias, higher education isn't right for everyone, especially right after high school. In fact, I think many kids today would be better served by a year of compulsory, para-military organized, service to the community. I'm not suggesting everyone needs to be a soldier, but I think that the paramilitary structure with strict personal accountability has a lot of benefits instead of what's almost become an additional 4 years (for those who can afford it) of pseudo-adulthood without consequence.

I don't have any problem with student loan programs, grant programs, or scholarships (though I'm getting to the point that I think athletic scholarships at the top level for sports like football or basketball should be scrapped in favor of true farm teams...). But I don't want my tax money going to ensure higher education...

 

[Touch Of Death]

Then we're going to have to agree to disagree...

I busted my butt to pay for college. As a result, I valued it more than many classmates. For example, one fellow student actually complained once that the teacher's assignments in the course were cutting into his golf game... This as I was working midnights, going to school, and working additional jobs. No... I wasn't sympathetic.

But even beyond my personal bias, higher education isn't right for everyone, especially right after high school. In fact, I think many kids today would be better served by a year of compulsory, para-military organized, service to the community. I'm not suggesting everyone needs to be a soldier, but I think that the paramilitary structure with strict personal accountability has a lot of benefits instead of what's almost become an additional 4 years (for those who can afford it) of pseudo-adulthood without consequence.

I don't have any problem with student loan programs, grant programs, or scholarships (though I'm getting to the point that I think athletic scholarships at the top level for sports like football or basketball should be scrapped in favor of true farm teams...). But I don't want my tax money going to ensure higher education...

And welcome to the prison system becomming our largest GNP.
Sean

 

[Ronin Moose]

Not sure what luxuries our inmate population deserves? I say leave it up to Sheriff Joe.......

http://www.reelectjoe.com/

-Garry

 

[jks9199]

And welcome to the prison system becomming our largest GNP.
Sean

How?

You say that not giving everyone an automatic two years of college will guarantee that they'll go to prison? Sorry... Lots of people manage to make legal choices who don't have any college -- and some of them don't even have a high school diploma. I don't buy your reasoning, such as it comes through in one-liners.

I'd like to see a greater emphasis on providing useful vocational education, whether that's in the traditional trades like carpentry, masonry, plumbing, or electrical work, or in more modern areas like aspects of the computer industry, law enforcement, or office management. I'd like to see the public schools freed of the need to be nannys and babysitters and allowed to concentrate on educating people instead of minding them. I'd like to see more people accept responsibility for their own choices, too. I said I wasted my high school years; there's no reason why I didn't work hard enough to live up to the capability I have and had and earn academic scholarships, except that I couldn't be bothered. But that was my choice; nobody else was responsible for it. And winding up in prison is typically (like virtually always) the product of a serious of choices to do illegal activities, even for drug addicts. Most states now have diversionary programs for first time drug offenders; that means to get convicted of a felony for simple possession means that you've probably chosen not to accept the help provided at least once. (In my experience... It's more than once.) Outside of drug offenses... It usually takes more than one deliberate choice to commit a felony and end up in prison. (Prison and jail are not the same.) Most first offenders are pled out, often to misdemeanor offense. Many felons don't go to prison; prisons are simply too crowded, and many receive substantial suspended sentences.

 

[Don Roley]

And I think the first two years of college should be universaly free. This would include all the remedial training to get you to the starting point. We are the richest nation on earth, by the way.

Let me get this straight, you are saying that people who mamage to get through 12 years of free education and still do not have basic skills should be then given even more free education in the hope that this time it will be different?

Either the case is the free educational system is a failure (which would mean that even more would just be throwing good money after bad) or you have to think that there are reasons other than lack of education that cause people to turn to crime.

I lean toward the latter. I think that it is not a case of a lack of education leading to crime, but a factor or factors that cause people to turn to crime and cause them to do poor in school.

Look over that again. The reason they can't read and the reason they are boosting cars are the same thing. If you only try to treat one of the symptoms in the hope the other one goes away you are going to fail and fail miserably.

The reasons are probably quite varied, but it is pretty much beyond the educational system to deal with. Hence we need to courts and jails. I can tell you as a teacher that there are kids I see that I just know are going to be in trouble with the law later on. There is not a damn thing I can do to prevent it. If they want help to get themselves better educated the teachers will fall over themselves trying to help them. But these kids will not seek it out if they don't know something. A few of them actually do well, but are just twisted in some way.

And I think that your opinion is an insult to the guys that do not do well in school and yet struggle to walk the straight and narrow. Over my years as a teacher I have seen kids who just can't seem to grasp some of the stuff they are being asked to learn. In a few cases, they made bad choices about how much to study and in some cases they were just born without the ability to learn as much as the typical person. I know a few of these kids even years after they have left me and are now adults.

One of them works at a convinience store at the last train transfer of my journey home after martial arts class. I stop by and get a chuhai or something to drink on the last train I take across town and help kill the pain from training. He is probably going to be working jobs like that the rest of his life because he does not have the ability to do much of anything else. But he does his job damn well and always greets me and the customers with a big smile and an honest desire to help.

This guy spent years in English class and all he can use is "Hello Mr Roley" but he does not do crime. But why should be bother if there is an excuse that criminals would not be criminals if only they were better educated? Why try to walk the correct path when there is a ready- made excuse for taking whatever actions you want instead of resisting the temptations?

But if you really want to help people go to school, you are quite free to contribute your money to various charities that will help poor kids go to college. Before you ask anyone else to be forced to spend money so you can feel morally superior you should cut back on any spending for yourself and lead by example. So come back after you have stopped training in martial arts, going to the movies and such and instead use the money to send kids to college.

 

[kenpotroop]

Sean you seem pretty passionate about this. I have toured the places they have it easy to the most part.

 

[Touch Of Death]

How?

You say that not giving everyone an automatic two years of college will guarantee that they'll go to prison? Sorry... Lots of people manage to make legal choices who don't have any college -- and some of them don't even have a high school diploma. I don't buy your reasoning, such as it comes through in one-liners.

I'd like to see a greater emphasis on providing useful vocational education, whether that's in the traditional trades like carpentry, masonry, plumbing, or electrical work, or in more modern areas like aspects of the computer industry, law enforcement, or office management. I'd like to see the public schools freed of the need to be nannys and babysitters and allowed to concentrate on educating people instead of minding them. I'd like to see more people accept responsibility for their own choices, too. I said I wasted my high school years; there's no reason why I didn't work hard enough to live up to the capability I have and had and earn academic scholarships, except that I couldn't be bothered. But that was my choice; nobody else was responsible for it. And winding up in prison is typically (like virtually always) the product of a serious of choices to do illegal activities, even for drug addicts. Most states now have diversionary programs for first time drug offenders; that means to get convicted of a felony for simple possession means that you've probably chosen not to accept the help provided at least once. (In my experience... It's more than once.) Outside of drug offenses... It usually takes more than one deliberate choice to commit a felony and end up in prison. (Prison and jail are not the same.) Most first offenders are pled out, often to misdemeanor offense. Many felons don't go to prison; prisons are simply too crowded, and many receive substantial suspended sentences.

We will build more.
Sean

 

[jks9199]

We will build more.
Sean

Build more what? Schools? Prisons? Bicycles? Software programs? Dagwood sandwiches? Donut collections? Monuments? Houses? Roads? (Please... tell me roads! We need them in my area!)

How about actually responding with more than a vague one liner? Tell me how guaranteeing more education will reduce prison populations. Tell me how you'd change the educational system so that people won't choose to commit crimes. Tell me how 2 more years of education will offset the incredible temptation to a kid who sees his drug dealing dropout homeboy driving new cars and wearing more bling than his hardworking folks see in a year... Tell me how more free schooling will produce people willing to accept the responsibility to make the legal choice in the face of temptation like that.

Will it guarantee them a better job? I doubt it. Will it make them more fit for work? Maybe, maybe not.

Just show me how lack of college sent anyone to prison...

 

[MJS]

Build more what? Schools? Prisons? Bicycles? Software programs? Dagwood sandwiches? Donut collections? Monuments? Houses? Roads? (Please... tell me roads! We need them in my area!)

How about actually responding with more than a vague one liner? Tell me how guaranteeing more education will reduce prison populations. Tell me how you'd change the educational system so that people won't choose to commit crimes. Tell me how 2 more years of education will offset the incredible temptation to a kid who sees his drug dealing dropout homeboy driving new cars and wearing more bling than his hardworking folks see in a year... Tell me how more free schooling will produce people willing to accept the responsibility to make the legal choice in the face of temptation like that.

Will it guarantee them a better job? I doubt it. Will it make them more fit for work? Maybe, maybe not.

Just show me how lack of college sent anyone to prison...

Good questions and ones I'd like to hear the answer to. Post #82 has some questions I'm curious about as well.

Mike

 

[Touch Of Death]

Build more what? Schools? Prisons? Bicycles? Software programs? Dagwood sandwiches? Donut collections? Monuments? Houses? Roads? (Please... tell me roads! We need them in my area!)

How about actually responding with more than a vague one liner? Tell me how guaranteeing more education will reduce prison populations. Tell me how you'd change the educational system so that people won't choose to commit crimes. Tell me how 2 more years of education will offset the incredible temptation to a kid who sees his drug dealing dropout homeboy driving new cars and wearing more bling than his hardworking folks see in a year... Tell me how more free schooling will produce people willing to accept the responsibility to make the legal choice in the face of temptation like that.

Will it guarantee them a better job? I doubt it. Will it make them more fit for work? Maybe, maybe not.

Just show me how lack of college sent anyone to prison...

I don't have the figures in front of me but the illiteracy rate in prison is very high. My answer to the question of education lies with children and not the already damaged adult. We need to boost the K-12 in a big way. We need to Identify the future criminals and deal with them and thier family situation before it comes to a head. Don't start telling me how this will violate our constitutional rights because we live in a nation that now jails you for having brown skin and being Muslim without a trial or right to legal council. Saving a few kids shouldn't raise any eyebrows.
Sean

 

[Touch Of Death]

Sean you seem pretty passionate about this. I have toured the places they have it easy to the most part.

They have it easy because its cheaper to do so. I am not an inmate hugger. I just feel the prison system needs to be put in the hands of the republic and not so much the public. Voters are too easily lead astray by their emotional responses to crime and criminals.
Sean

 

[jks9199]

I don't have the figures in front of me but the illiteracy rate in prison is very high. My answer to the question of education lies with children and not the already damaged adult. We need to boost the K-12 in a big way. We need to Identify the future criminals and deal with them and thier family situation before it comes to a head. Don't start telling me how this will violate our constitutional rights because we live in a nation that now jails you for having brown skin and being Muslim without a trial or right to legal council. Saving a few kids shouldn't raise any eyebrows.
Sean

OK... you want to identify the "future criminals." How are you going to do that? What mechanism are you going to use?

You want to change the educational system to build better literacy; I agree, the public educational system is overwhelmed because too many tasks other than education have been placed on it, and that the so-called "accountability" movement isn't working. It's led to teaching to the test, by necessity, and some aspects of the testing process just aren't working. It's absolutely unreasonable to expect a person who doesn't speak English well to pass a test in English, for example -- but No Child Left Behind denies funding to school systems that administer more appropriate tests to students from immigrant families (whether the student's family immigrated legally or illegally is immaterial.) So... how do you want to change it? Add two more years? Don Roley already questioned simply adding more time; if they aren't learning it in 13 to 15 years (counting some of the Headstart type of programs)... What's two more years going to do?

 

[Touch Of Death]

OK... you want to identify the "future criminals." How are you going to do that? What mechanism are you going to use?

You want to change the educational system to build better literacy; I agree, the public educational system is overwhelmed because too many tasks other than education have been placed on it, and that the so-called "accountability" movement isn't working. It's led to teaching to the test, by necessity, and some aspects of the testing process just aren't working. It's absolutely unreasonable to expect a person who doesn't speak English well to pass a test in English, for example -- but No Child Left Behind denies funding to school systems that administer more appropriate tests to students from immigrant families (whether the student's family immigrated legally or illegally is immaterial.) So... how do you want to change it? Add two more years? Don Roley already questioned simply adding more time; if they aren't learning it in 13 to 15 years (counting some of the Headstart type of programs)... What's two more years going to do?

The next two years are what everyone needs to simply sharpen their skills for the job market: the typing they didn't take, pass english 101, 201 if possible, sharpened math skills ect.
As for the K-12 system, we should pay a salary for the quality of person dealing with our children, boost counceling services, throw some truant officers in the game (saw that on the "little Rascals"), smaller class rooms ect.
Sean

 

[Drac]

OK... you want to identify the "future criminals." How are you going to do that? What mechanism are you going to use?

If he prefects it he can sell it to the LE communities on the city, state and federal levels and make a FORTUNE...

 

[Touch Of Death]

If he prefects it he can sell it to the LE communities on the city, state and federal levels and make a FORTUNE...

Smarter people than me already know exactly how to do this, its getting the public to ignore the "eye for an eye" justice mentality that is the issue. If I can do that, I would be rich indeed.
sean

 

[Drac]

its getting the public to ignore the "eye for an eye" justice mentality that is the issue. If I can do that, I would be rich indeed.

Some little punk-gang-banger-drug-boy breaks in a senior citizens house robs it and beats the occupant half to death..What do you think should be done??? I 'd love to tell you what I think should happen and it AIN'T COUNSELING but someone would drop a dime on me to the Senior Mods..

 

[Touch Of Death]

Some little punk-gang-banger-drug-boy breaks in a senior citizens house robs it and beats the occupant half to death..What do you think should be done??? I 'd love to tell you what I think should happen and it AIN'T COUNSELING but someone would drop a dime on me to the Senior Mods..

An excellent example of the Eye for an Eye mentality that I am talking about. Thank you. Already you can do nothing personaly because you have a government that handles these issues for you; so, that you yourself are not put into prison.
Sean

 

[Drac]

An excellent example of the Eye for an Eye mentality that I am talking about. Thank you. Already you can do nothing personaly because you have a government that handles these issues for you; so, that you yourself are not put into prison.
Sean

I am willing to bet that if you worked the streets with me for one month and got to know and deal with these little lost ones your whole outlook would change...