What To Do With The Prison Population

[Cryozombie]

I guess I misunderstood...I thought you said that a dope smoking dad was a good role model. Obviously the not the kind of guy to produce law abiding citizens, especially since he isn't one himself.

Well, what I am saying is that Given a choice between having a kid raise him/ herself and develop whatever morals they might learn from the streets, or having a guy whos pretty decent and stand up, who just happens to be a criminal because he smokes some weed occasionally (and despite the Reefer Madness image, I know several people like that) I think they would turn out better in the latter situation.

I mean, Hell... I know "Potheads" that are much better fathers and rolemodels than most alcoholics, but... alcohol is legal, so I guess that's ok, somehow.

 

[Ray]

Well, what I am saying is that Given a choice between having a kid raise him/ herself and develop whatever morals they might learn from the streets, or having a guy whos pretty decent and stand up, who just happens to be a criminal because he smokes some weed occasionally (and despite the Reefer Madness image, I know several people like that) I think they would turn out better in the latter situation.

I mean, Hell... I know "Potheads" that are much better fathers and rolemodels than most alcoholics, but... alcohol is legal, so I guess that's ok, somehow.

For me personally, alcohol is not okay; but neither is weed.

However, one of the things we might agree on is that we can reduce the prison population by desisting from participating in criminal acts. If there is a criminal behavior that we think should be decriminalized, the we should work through legal means to legalize it. The means which we use to rationalize "victimless" criminal behavior is the same means we will use to rationalize anything that we wish to do. Look at the wife-beaters who justify their violence by claiming "she made me hit her."

 

[Cryozombie]

Look at the wife-beaters who justify their violence by claiming "she made me hit her."

There is a huge difference between Wife beating, which is a crime with a Vicitm, and Smoking a Marajuana cigarette in your livingroom on a saturday afternoon.

Personally, I think that its Hypocritical that Alcohol is Ok (and, yes, I understand you don't feel that way, but its legal, so it IS ok, by the only standard we use to judge pot) and pot isn't. I think its hypocritical that Ciggarettes full of chemical toxins, additives and poisions are ok, but natural Pot isn't. I think its hypocritical that we feed drugs, in the form of caffiene to our KIDS, but pot isn't legal.

I don't smoke pot, mind you, but as a beer brewer, and a coffee snob, I see the hypocracy we set up as a system, by banning pot for purley political reasons... and, oh yes, it was banned for political reasons when it was banned... but it has been so villified over the years and so much FAKE or MISLEADING information about it has been put out that changing that decision is monumental... so meanwhile, Purists who think all substances should be banned, even tho all they REALLY need to do is not use them themselves instead of trying to control or dictate other peoples beliefs, morals or lives cost us BILLIONS of dollars, us being you, me, our families, etc etc to imprison people because they are not like minded. Think about that for a second...

We are imprisoning people for they do to themselves, because we disagree... what happens when some whacko in power decides Masturbation is as bad as pot and we ALL go to jail for that one? Its the SAME thing.

I agree that it IS the law, and the people breaking that law are getting arrested... but, its a stupid law, that was enacted for stupid reasons, that really is as victimless as Coffee, Ciggarettes, Caffiene, SUGAR or masterbation.

No, wait, I just had a realization...

Marijuana is NOT a victimless crime... Who is the Victim? The taxpayers getting nailed with the cost of keeping pot smokers in jail.

 

[Ray]

There is a huge difference between Wife beating, which is a crime with a Vicitm, and Smoking a Marajuana cigarette in your livingroom on a saturday afternoon.

I didn't say they were the same. The point is that people can justify anything they do. I'm not going to argue that point further because you do it so eloquently in the rest of your post.

Personally, I think that its Hypocritical that Alcohol is Ok (and, yes, I understand you don't feel that way, but its legal, so it IS ok, by the only standard we use to judge pot) and pot isn't. I think its hypocritical that Ciggarettes full of chemical toxins, additives and poisions are ok, but natural Pot isn't. I think its hypocritical that we feed drugs, in the form of caffiene to our KIDS, but pot isn't legal.

I don't smoke pot, mind you, but as a beer brewer, and a coffee snob, I see the hypocracy we set up as a system, by banning pot for purley political reasons... and, oh yes, it was banned for political reasons when it was banned... but it has been so villified over the years and so much FAKE or MISLEADING information about it has been put out that changing that decision is monumental... so meanwhile, Purists who think all substances should be banned, even tho all they REALLY need to do is not use them themselves instead of trying to control or dictate other peoples beliefs, morals or lives cost us BILLIONS of dollars, us being you, me, our families, etc etc to imprison people because they are not like minded. Think about that for a second...

We are imprisoning people for they do to themselves, because we disagree... what happens when some whacko in power decides Masturbation is as bad as pot and we ALL go to jail for that one? Its the SAME thing.

I agree that it IS the law, and the people breaking that law are getting arrested... but, its a stupid law, that was enacted for stupid reasons, that really is as victimless as Coffee, Ciggarettes, Caffiene, SUGAR or masterbation.

No, wait, I just had a realization...

Marijuana is NOT a victimless crime... Who is the Victim? The taxpayers getting nailed with the cost of keeping pot smokers in jail.

So what are you doing to get pot legalized and/or coffee, ciggs, caffene and sugar outlawed?

 

[Cryozombie]

So what are you doing to get pot legalized and/or coffee, ciggs, caffene and sugar outlawed?

Mainly, now, Refusing to support the political "leaders" who support the issue of wasting my money on pot arrests.

 

[modarnis]

If what got him in prison in the first place is a misguided 'mandatory minimum drug sentence for a non-violent offender' ... .

Big assuption that drug users are non violent. While they may not be murderers or rapists, large percentages of them fund their habits through burglary, larceny, prostitution, forgery and a variety of other things that might not be violent, but are clearly intrusive and violate average hard working citizens. Other crimes like drunk driving are not per se violent, but they have externalities that unchecked have the potential for loss of human life.

In many cities, including the one where I work as a prosecutor, the activities of these non-violent offenders make the city patently unliveable for the majority. The unfortunate truth is that this majority is struggling working poor who try to live the american dream, but face impedements from these non violent criminals and those who seeek to let criminals roam the streets unchecked.

At what point do we lock people up when they can't behave. 5 convictions, 20, 40 ? The harsh truth is that if convicted persons don't get their acts together after the first 2 or 3 diversionary programs, followed by 3 or 4 convictions with probations that they violate, locking them up is the only option left, otherwise they learn quickly that the system has no teeth.

I urge anyone to spend a few days at their local criminal court and see how few people are locked up realtive to the amount of crimes committed

 

[Blotan Hunka]

Big assuption that drug users are non violent. While they may not be murderers or rapists, large percentages of them fund their habits through burglary, larceny, prostitution, forgery and a variety of other things that might not be violent, but are clearly intrusive and violate average hard working citizens. Other crimes like drunk driving are not per se violent, but they have externalities that unchecked have the potential for loss of human life.

Which leads me to wonder.

If drugs were legalized, would these people stop using violence to fund their habit? I mean if they need them so bad that they will use violence to get them now... its still gonna cost money to buy legal drugs...where will the get the cash to by the legal stuff?

 

[michaeledward]

Big assuption that drug users are non violent.

It is not an assuption at all.

The evidence available shows that approximately 70% of the 500,000 current inmates behind bars on drug offenses were not charged with any violence.

I do not make the claim that all drug offenders are non-violent.

 

[jks9199]

It is not an assuption at all.

The evidence available shows that approximately 70% of the 500,000 current inmates behind bars on drug offenses were not charged with any violence.

I do not make the claim that all drug offenders are non-violent.

It's a rather big leap that someone who simply wasn't charged with a violent offense didn't commit one -- or any other more serious offense.

As a practical matter, we often don't charge people with every possible offense. Depending on how cooperative a victim will be (or how credible), I may not charge a drug user with anything but the possession and/or distribution.

But even ignoring that issue -- the simple fact is that unless you have access to all of the arrest documents, knowing what someone was convicted and sentenced for is not the same as knowing what they were charged with. There may have been other offenses charged, but witnesses didn't come to court. Or a plea deal resulted in only a conviction of a drug offense, and not a battery or assault on an officer that accompanied it. Or they were found with lots of "stolen" property that had never been reported... or they were strongly tied to, but not so strongly as "beyond a reasonable doubt", robberies or burglaries or even simple larcenies like shoplifting.

 

[michaeledward]

It's a rather big leap that someone who simply wasn't charged with a violent offense didn't commit one -- or any other more serious offense.

As a practical matter, we often don't charge people with every possible offense. Depending on how cooperative a victim will be (or how credible), I may not charge a drug user with anything but the possession and/or distribution.

But even ignoring that issue -- the simple fact is that unless you have access to all of the arrest documents, knowing what someone was convicted and sentenced for is not the same as knowing what they were charged with. There may have been other offenses charged, but witnesses didn't come to court. Or a plea deal resulted in only a conviction of a drug offense, and not a battery or assault on an officer that accompanied it. Or they were found with lots of "stolen" property that had never been reported... or they were strongly tied to, but not so strongly as "beyond a reasonable doubt", robberies or burglaries or even simple larcenies like shoplifting.

And the fact that I have never been convicted as a rapist doesn't mean I'm not one. But, it is absolutely irrelevant to the point. You can use this type of attack to intimate anything.

Is the next question supposed to be "When did you stop beating your wife?"

 

[Blotan Hunka]

It's a rather big leap that someone who simply wasn't charged with a violent offense didn't commit one -- or any other more serious offense.

As a practical matter, we often don't charge people with every possible offense. Depending on how cooperative a victim will be (or how credible), I may not charge a drug user with anything but the possession and/or distribution.

But even ignoring that issue -- the simple fact is that unless you have access to all of the arrest documents, knowing what someone was convicted and sentenced for is not the same as knowing what they were charged with. There may have been other offenses charged, but witnesses didn't come to court. Or a plea deal resulted in only a conviction of a drug offense, and not a battery or assault on an officer that accompanied it. Or they were found with lots of "stolen" property that had never been reported... or they were strongly tied to, but not so strongly as "beyond a reasonable doubt", robberies or burglaries or even simple larcenies like shoplifting.

You make a good point about crime statistics. What people are convicted or in jail for is NOT a good indicator of what they really did. And for all those "nonviolent" incarcerated people, what does their criminal record look like? Im willing to bet they are not "good guys" who happened to get locked up for a little blow or weed.

 

[Ray]

The evidence available shows that approximately 70% of the 500,000 current inmates behind bars on drug offenses were not charged with any violence.

All I know is that two of my brothers who abused drugs were indeed violent...and although they spent time behind bars they were never charged with a violent offense.

Another postivie point to drug abuse (including alcohol) is the addiction that can lead to the death of people like my two brothers who happened to die homeless...

 

[michaeledward]

All I know is that two of my brothers who abused drugs were indeed violent...and although they spent time behind bars they were never charged with a violent offense.

Another postivie point to drug abuse (including alcohol) is the addiction that can lead to the death of people like my two brothers who happened to die homeless...

Personal anecdotes aside, we all know that correlation does not equal causation.

That your brothers were violent, does not mean that the drug use caused their violence, in fact, it could be the other way around. I think you would be hard pressed to show a causation between drug use and homelessness. Do we find all drug users homeless?

Additionally, alcohol creates a chemical dependence, whereas some other drugs - marijuana, for instance - do not create chemical dependency.

I am an alcoholic. I have been sober for close to 15 years. And I recently saw the Penn & Teller ******** episode on Alcoholism and 12 step programs. There is a lot of wisdom in that half hour of television.

 

[IWishToLearn]

Personally I believe life in prison or multiple life sentences is cruel and unusual in and of itself. Just execute them and be done with it, and quit making me pay tax dollars - for those kind of offenders I really don't give a crap about their "rights" any more.

 

[michaeledward]

Personally I believe life in prison or multiple life sentences is cruel and unusual in and of itself. Just execute them and be done with it, and quit making me pay tax dollars - for those kind of offenders I really don't give a crap about their "rights" any more.

While I disagree with this thought in many ways, I can understand it as being a position one reaches when measuring a cost/benefit analysis in dollar terms.

Sometimes, it seems the second part of your premise - the 'just execute them and be done with it' part - is the position that many hold. And while you are describing some sub-set of offenders - "those kind of offenders" - I believe that many wouldn't mind expanding that sub-set to all offenders.

Of course, this type of thinking, followed to its a logical extention, leads us to public hangings for adultry, and the like.

And, if you don't give a crap about their rights, who will look after your rights, if you are wrongfully charged, convicted and imprisoned?

http://cwslnews.wordpress.com/2007/02/23/california-innocence-project-frees-fith-innocent-man/