What To Do With The Prison Population

[michaeledward]

But we're not coming up with a solution. Instead it'll be a revolving door.

You're kidding right?

So if the person has no income and no property, where are they going to live, on the street? If thats the case, they're better off in prison. At least they'll get 3 meals, showers, a roof over their head, etc.

And I'm sorry, but I don't like paying for people that milk the system. I mean, we hear all the time about 13 yr old girls having a baby. Who pays for that?? We do. Why should I pay for someone who isn't even done being a child herself?? Funny though...I've seen people with food stamps but when they walk to the parking lot, they're getting into a Caddy. Whats wrong with that picture?

Mike

It would not be a revovling door, if we followed your premise further upstream. If possessing and using an intoxicant was not against the law, then people would not be going to jail for possessing and using that substance. The door would not revolve - it would open.

Concerning the sentence that I highlighted ... who makes the determination that living in prison is "better off" than living on the street? It reads, to me, that you are making that determination on the behalf of the street person.

Consering sex laws - I am not kidding. There have been many discussions on this board about the police officers having a measure of discretion when issuing, or not issuing a citation. When writing laws, over the past two decades, our legislators have removed the "Order" side of 'Law and Order' from being able to also practice a measure of discretion when dealing with violators. Mandatory Sentencing Laws are the culprit concerning non-violent drug offenses. What if there were 'Mandatory Minimum Sentences' for oral sex?

And your last paragraph may be inspired by an idea you have not given thought to before ... Why must people be productive in society?

How do you mandate that?
If government forces a member of society to productivity, can the country claim to be the beacon of "freedom"?
Is a structure of society that has some mandate on productivity moving toward a communist philosophy? All members must work for the good of the whole.

Your paragraph, incidently, does not talk about productivity of members of society, but rather, social programs that society has established. They are two very different topics.

 

[Tez3]

In this country the first thing that should be done is check the mental heealth of all prison inmates.Nearly all hospitals where mentally ill people could stay and be treated have been closed in favour of "care in the community". This hasn't worked and dangerly mental ill people have been aloowed to wander the streets untreated and a danger to themselves and others. The solution for the main part has been to give them prison sentences and put them in the country's prisons.this is so wrong from many points of view.
Next thing would be to check how many under 16's there are. Again there are now few facilities for juveniles who offend.
And last not least stop sending women to prison for the same crimes that if commited by men would be a non custodial sentence!
Then perhaps we could address the problems caused by and faced by the real criminals.

 

[michaeledward]

Forgive the thread gak ...

But, I found this headline over at RawStory. I post it here as a reminder for those arguing against appeal after appeal.

Monday April 2, 2007 10:01 PM

[FONT=Geneva,Arial,sans-serif]
By CAROLYN THOMPSON
Associated Press Writer
BUFFALO, N.Y. (AP) - Rape convictions that placed Anthony Capozzi to prison for the past 22 years were erased Monday because of recently found DNA evidence that tied the crimes to another man. A prosecutor last week declared Capozzi, 50, exonerated. He is expected to be freed from prison this week.

And, while the rapes discussed here, are not capital offenses, it may be helpful to recall that our system of jurisprudence is called the 'criminal justice' system.

Would it be justice if a similar conviction led to the execution of person 10 years after conviction, only to find out 12 years after that, it was the wrong convict that was executed.

And, would we even look to correct the oversight, if the person was executed already? And where does that answer lie on the 'ethics' spectrum.
[/FONT]

 

[MJS]

It would not be a revovling door, if we followed your premise further upstream. If possessing and using an intoxicant was not against the law, then people would not be going to jail for possessing and using that substance. The door would not revolve - it would open.

Hmm..but I would think that its going to depend on what narcotic is in question. If Marijuana offenders are freed, what about the crack offenders or the meth offenders, or the cocaine offenders?

Concerning the sentence that I highlighted ... who makes the determination that living in prison is "better off" than living on the street? It reads, to me, that you are making that determination on the behalf of the street person.

In another post, you said this:

And trying to mandate 'productivity' by members of society is just wrong. If someone chooses to be unproductive, let him enjoy the rewards of that unproductivity. e.g. If I don't want to pay any taxes, the easiest legal way to do that, is to not have any income or property. And there is nothing illegal with that (yet).

So...if someone has no money, and no property, where you do propose they live? If I lost my job today, lost my cars, and my condo, eventually my money is going to run out. Now, where am I going to end up? A shelter? Sure, but thats not a permanent solution. On the street? Ok..so I'm going to huddle up with my wife in a corner on a cold windy day. No thanks. I'd rather be in jail. Where would you rather be? Please show me how living on the street has more benefits than being in jail.

And your last paragraph may be inspired by an idea you have not given thought to before ... Why must people be productive in society?

So you support people being deadbeats?


On another note: I think this thread may be getting off track. In my OP, I was looking for ways to productively help offenders. It seems like some people think prison is not good, so I'm looking to discuss ways to find things for these people to do.

Thanks,

Mike

 

[heretic888]

And, while the rapes discussed here, are not capital offenses, it may be helpful to recall that our system of jurisprudence is called the 'criminal justice' system.

Would it be justice if a similar conviction led to the execution of person 10 years after conviction, only to find out 12 years after that, it was the wrong convict that was executed.

And, would we even look to correct the oversight, if the person was executed already? And where does that answer lie on the 'ethics' spectrum.
[/size][/font]

Sadly, this is a more common occurence than you may think. I have read studies from a few years ago indicating that, statistically speaking, roughly 20 to 30% of convicted rapists are actually innocent. This came to light when DNA evidence and other forms of forensic evidence were applied to cases in which they were previously unavailable.

On a related note, a spokesman for a certain legal organization was on The Colbert Report several months back. His organization is dedicated to exonerating innocent deathrow prisoners by a similar methodology, examining their cases and applying new forensic data. Oddly enough, according to this person, a similar number --- around 25 to 30% ---
of the people they try to help have actually been found innocent.

If it is true that a full one-fourth of our "violent criminals" (i.e., rapists and deathrow prisoners) are in fact innocent, I think we need to seriously rethink the nuts and bolts of our legal system. Our system operates upon the assumption that it is better for 10 guilty men to go free than for 1 innocent man to face wrongful incarceration (Innocent Until Proven Guilty). We are obviously failing to live up to this principle.

 

[michaeledward]

Hmm..but I would think that its going to depend on what narcotic is in question. If Marijuana offenders are freed, what about the crack offenders or the meth offenders, or the cocaine offenders?

Are they non-violent offenses? If so, same-same. What people put into their bodies should be none of the concern of the State.

And the idea that marijuana is a gateway drug relies on belief that corralation is causation. A premise that has not been shown true. If B follows A, it does not follow that A caused B.

So...if someone has no money, and no property, where you do propose they live? If I lost my job today, lost my cars, and my condo, eventually my money is going to run out. Now, where am I going to end up? A shelter? Sure, but thats not a permanent solution. On the street? Ok..so I'm going to huddle up with my wife in a corner on a cold windy day. No thanks. I'd rather be in jail. Where would you rather be? Please show me how living on the street has more benefits than being in jail.

When living on the street, one can decide when to eat, when to sleep, and where to walk. When living in jail, those decisions are made by the State.

So you support people being deadbeats?

I support people being free to choose. If their choice is to be a deadbeat, I support it.

On another note: I think this thread may be getting off track. In my OP, I was looking for ways to productively help offenders. It seems like some people think prison is not good, so I'm looking to discuss ways to find things for these people to do.

This goes back to our age old discussion ... what is the purpose of prison. If the purpose is to PUNISH, then don't do anything with them. Productivity is a reward in itself. At the end of the day, a convict can look with pride on what he has accomplished. If we are attempting to PUNISH, we do not want prisoners experiencing PRIDE, as that is a reward.

If the purpose is to REHABILITATE, then activities should be geared toward rehabilitation. Picking up the side of the highway, does very little along the path of rehabilitation. School and Trade should be the order of the day. Teach convicts skills that can be applied once they are discharged from custody; reading, writing, interviewing, cooking, cleaning, fixing, and any skill that allows them to participate in society once released.

If when released, they choose not to use those skills, that remains their right.

 

[MJS]

This is sort of a spin-off of a thread that TOD started regarding cable TV in prison cells. Now, reading thru that thread, there were mixed views. So, my question is: What should we have the inmates do? I mean, sitting around watching tv, playing a board game or lifting weights, IMO, is not too productive. Instead, I think having them work would be much more productive. Something along the lines of a chain gang IMO is much more beneficial. Personally, I see nothing wrong with them going out in small groups, along the highway, picking up trash. They're giving something back to the community, by helping to keep it clean and they're also getting out of the prison for a few hours.

Of course, I'm sure there are other assorted 'jobs' that they could do, so the above was only a start.

Any other thoughts?

The goal is to help people, if people determine that the 'system' isn't doing that. This is what I would like to discuss....how to help people. I'm sorry, but letting them out of prison, to roam the streets, is not helping someone. So....before we get any further off topic...lets discuss how to help someone. People say that prison isn't an answer. Ok..well what is?

 

[Tez3]

The goal is to help people, if people determine that the 'system' isn't doing that. This is what I would like to discuss....how to help people. I'm sorry, but letting them out of prison, to roam the streets, is not helping someone. So....before we get any further off topic...lets discuss how to help someone. People say that prison isn't an answer. Ok..well what is?

First "sort out" who should be there and who shouldn't! Have different types of prison, why put firstimers in with the old lags just so they can learn to be better criminals? Take out the mentally ill and homeless (they get put in out of 'kindness" sometimes as there is nowhere else for the magistrates to put them especially in winter - sorry I don't know the equivilant of magistrate for you - it's the court where small charges are heard) We don't have the death penalty so death row is not an issue. We do send to prison people who don't pay their fines which does no good at all, the fines still don't get paid and we end up paying for their keep.
Looking at prisoners and seeing what their needs are would be a start, many in prison are there because they don't know any better, seperate them from the career criminals and give them an education and a chance to do something with their lives.
Over here, we need to recruit more prison officers and start paying them properly!

 

[michaeledward]

The goal is to help people, if people determine that the 'system' isn't doing that. This is what I would like to discuss....how to help people. I'm sorry, but letting them out of prison, to roam the streets, is not helping someone. So....before we get any further off topic...lets discuss how to help someone. People say that prison isn't an answer. Ok..well what is?

I am wondering if having a prisoner pick up trash off the side of the road qualifies as "helping them". It certainly is helping society, we benefit from having clean streets, but does that help the prisoner?

If we wish to help the prisoner, how about bringing technical vocation schools to the prison. There is a shortage of autobody technicians in the workplace. Many resturants hire released convicts (having prisoners behind the closed doors of the kitchen is apparently one of the places that is acceptable to have an ex-convict working). Heating and Air Conditioning skills. And of course, all that training is useless if the convict is unable to complete a job application or present himself appropriately at an interview; so basic schooling is also required.

Of course, these discussions run smack into the idea that prisons are for punishing offenses.

Prisoners should not be indentured servants, made to do work for our benefit.

 

[mrhnau]

Maybe we should teach them to fight and train? They can get out early that way...

Thai fighter hoping for early release

 

[MJS]

Well, now we're getting somewhere.

See, in my OP, the last line, I stated that:

Of course, I'm sure there are other assorted 'jobs' that they could do, so the above was only a start.

So yes, getting them help, giving them someone to talk to about an addiction problem, a job, etc. These are the types of things I'm looking for. I do wonder though...would this be available to just the minor offenses or are we willing to rehab a person who walked in the local shopping mall and blew away 30 people? Then again, if they're showing signs of illness prior to that, that IMO, is the time to get them help.

So..we have some good suggestions...ie: teaching them a trade, helping to find them a job. All fantastic ideas!

I suppose the big issue though is, trying to convince people that this is a better choice than prison.

Mike

 

[Andrew Green]

If we wish to help the prisoner, how about bringing technical vocation schools to the prison. There is a shortage of autobody technicians in the workplace. Many resturants hire released convicts (having prisoners behind the closed doors of the kitchen is apparently one of the places that is acceptable to have an ex-convict working). Heating and Air Conditioning skills. And of course, all that training is useless if the convict is unable to complete a job application or present himself appropriately at an interview; so basic schooling is also required.

It might go against punishing, but not against rehabilitating. But, in the "real world" people have to work there way through school, they do so in order to be able to get better opportunities.

How about the same thing? Prisoners that take on work while in jail, whether it is picking up garbage or whatever, could make themselves elidgible for training as well. They work to "pay" for the training, those that do well maybe even getting the chance for parole on the condition that they find and retain employment.

Of course that will at least be partially dependent on the person. Everyone is locked up as a punishment, but some are also locked up for public safety. Those that can be trained and made productive members of society should IMO.

Might cost a little more up front, but in the end if they are working and paying taxes in 5 years, rather then back in jail I think the trade off would be worth it.

 

[Touch Of Death]

After taking some classes on the whole justice system it is much more complicated than I realized.
My viewpoint with what little I have learned is that they should be doing something productive. I think it is better for everyone.
There are a number of jobs that can be assigned. Simply jailing someone doesn't seem to work anyway. Changing the persons behavior and attitude needs to happen.
The reality is that these are not simple matters to solve.

Actualy slavery is alive and well in the form of the prison system. They work for a small wage and get overchareged for just about any luxury item. They are being worked. The death row problem can simply be solved by elimnating the death penalty.
Sean

 

[stickarts]

Actualy slavery is alive and well in the form of the prison system. They work for a small wage and get overchareged for just about any luxury item. They are being worked. The death row problem can simply be solved by elimnating the death penalty.
Sean

I understand your points. I do have a question: How will this lessen crime? What is your viewpoint on successfully reducing crime?

 

[Ray]

I have read studies from a few years ago indicating that, statistically speaking, roughly 20 to 30% of convicted rapists are actually innocent.

Oddly enough, according to this person, a similar number --- around 25 to 30% ---of the people they try to help have actually been found innocent.

If it is true that a full one-fourth of our "violent criminals" (i.e., rapists and deathrow prisoners) are in fact innocent...

It is a shame. And it is a shame for people to be victims of crimminals. Changing human behavior is a tough nut to crack. I don't know if rehab, punishment or a year with BF Skinner can change us for sure.

I may be wrong but I don't think the criminal justice system has "innocent" as an outcome. I've only heard of "guilty" and "not guilty."

 

[Touch Of Death]

I understand your points. I do have a question: How will this lessen crime? What is your viewpoint on successfully reducing crime?

Thats like asking how do we unscramble all these eggs. The best thing to do is be pro-active with problem kids.
Sean

 

[Blotan Hunka]

A large blender and a drain.

 

[Cryozombie]

I in the "real world" people have to work there way through school, they do so in order to be able to get better opportunities.

This is what I was thinking... if they start giving away free college in Prison, I might have to kill someone, and save myself a ton of money.

:wink:

 

[Blotan Hunka]

I knew a guy in high school. Got arrested for stealing a car, went to jail and got college paid for by the state. I, on the other hand, never got arrested in my life and Im still paying for school. While I can see the benefit in educating criminals in hopes of them not re-offending, it still smells of unfairness.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I knew a guy in high school. Got arrested for stealing a car, went to jail and got college paid for by the state. I, on the other hand, never got arrested in my life and Im still paying for school. While I can see the benefit in educating criminals in hopes of them not re-offending, it still smells of unfairness.

Whats un-fair is that in the richest country in the world you are getting soaked for an education.
Sean