Who is against this?

[Touch Of Death]

Whatever it costs..Maybe when word hits the streets about how terrible it is the whole "Jail-aint-so-bad" attitude might cease and force adults to think twice about comitting an act that will land them there..No, it's NOT a cure all and it won't magically decrease the crime rate overnight but I believe it will help..

No, how much more of your paycheck do you want to go to the corrections system? on top of the war, the streets and highways, ect.

 

[MJS]

Ok...and you're using this analogy for every prison in the world????
No I said the Northwest.

Ok.

Oddly enough I saw inmates where I worked, that had all those things available to them and there were many times when they'd be right there in the day room with everyone else.
Humans are social creatures.

Yes, we are social. So even with that TV and headset, they're still going to come out and be in a room with violent people. Really Sean, this isn't the Ritz that they're staying at, its a prison man.

Show me these stats.
No, you look em up. I took these classes about ten years ago; I'll trust things haven't changed since they showed them to me. Plus I couldn't begin to do a successfull search.

Well, many things change, so yes, I'd imagine that stats would change. Seeing that you were the one to mention stats, you should provide them, if thats what you're building your case on.

 

[Darksoul]

-The issue with prisons is just a smaller part of the big problem in this country. Why do people end up in prison? Multiple answers to that one, biggest one is lack of education and opportunity. And why are those a problem in this country? Multiple answers to that as well. City schools are often a breeding ground for the criminal element. Why? Again, multiple answers. See where I'm going with this? Everything in this country is connected, from how we treat other people to our environmental problems to our prison situation, you can always find a connection.

-Now that might make the problem seem too great to handle. I don't believe it is. Before people end up behind bars, we need to address the issues that put them on that path. Poverty, education, opportunity.
Things won't be peferct but I believe a lot can be made better if we could focus. Now should a person have access to the aforementioned and still proceed to a life of crime, and therefore prison, the place should be somewhere to fear. Yes, fear. A place you really don't want to end up in, cause who knows what might happen inside those walls. Sounds mean, doesn't it?

-If a person is willing to break the law then punishment should be swift and appropriate. No bleeding hearts! If you kill another person, rape, assualt, whatever, then perhaps you have no place in this world. There are people out there who want justice to be served but then make it so that that justice means very little. My problem exactly with the 8th amendment, protection against cruel and unusual punishment, and excessive fines and bail. Poor people cannot pay those last two and depending on the crime, should repay society some other way. Once upon a time, the death penalty was normal, not cruel and unusual.

-I have more to add but my thoughts are flying to fast. Let me leave you with this: I had a sociology professor who also taught college classes to inmates. He stated that the prison had the lowest recidivism rate when the immates had access to education. When they ended the classes, due to public protest, the prison experienced higher recidivism rates. I don't think they should get free college when I had to pay for mine but this shows how important the education is, so effort should be made to educate before prison.

-Just my two cents, good topic, one worth reviewing regularly.

A--->

 

[Drac]

What about locking them in a cell by themselves for most of the day, except when small groups of them are allowed out to eat? They can socialize for an hour or two, exercise to radio calethenics piped into the cells but otherwise be locked down. This would also probably cut down on rapes in prison as well as the schools that teach criminals to be better criminals and the violence against the staff.

That's how Alcatraz was run and it WORKED..No gyms etc etc...

 

[Gray Phoenix]

Prison should be a place that a person would not grow to like. Of course there are many different types of prisons. The guy who crashed his car into his living room because he was drinking to much shoudl not be thrown in with the murders and rapists. I say that because I believe that prisons/punishment should be consumate with the crime. The guy caught with a dead girl in his bed should be given nothing. Assuming he isnt executed, I would have no problem locking him in a cell with 5 other people just like him with food shoved through an access port. never to see the light of day. No offer of protection or recreation. As far as the economics, sedatives in the food. :nuke:

Anywho, not to drift too far. the prison expierience shoudl fit the crime.

 

[Don Roley]

That's how Alcatraz was run and it WORKED..No gyms etc etc...

Ok. So why go with more interaction between prisoners? More time in their cell means less chance of riots, attacks, etc. It also would require less people to watch them. Wouldn't that help save money as well?

 

[Don Roley]

Funny how the public votes for more prisons, but doesn't vote to feed kids. Why do you suppose that is?

Well, you see the government is in charge of taking people and putting them away for a long, long time. That is not something you or I can do. If we did, if everyone did that, it would be chaos. I know I would love to send away a few people who irritate me, but we need an objective source to do so and not the public at large.

The government needs to do this because there are people that would kill our kids, rape our wives and take everything we have worked for.

But helping other people is something that everyone can do. So the public at large can do it themselves with no need for an objective source like the government to take charge.

So, how much have you done to help feed kids? Have you perhaps taken another job, sold everything you don't need for survival (like the computer you are typing on) and moved into the bare minimum apartment you need to surivive?

Or are you talking about people other than yourself paying for things you want so that you can feel morally superior?

 

[Drac]

Ok. So why go with more interaction between prisoners? More time in their cell means less chance of riots, attacks, etc. It also would require less people to watch them. Wouldn't that help save money as well?

My post was somehow mis-read or I didn't make my point clear..I do NOT condone more interaction between..Keep them in their cells.Let them out to eat, shower and minimum time in the yard...

 

[Don Roley]

My post was somehow mis-read or I didn't make my point clear..I do NOT condone more interaction between..Keep them in their cells.Let them out to eat, shower and minimum time in the yard...

I did not say that. But somehow there has been a move to getting them out of their cells and interacting with each other. You oppose tha, I oppose tha, but since the time of Alcatraz that has been the case. Why is that? Why not keep them seperated from each other in their cells? At some point someone had to have given a reason to put them together more. I really want to know the reasons why that choice was made.

 

[Drac]

I did not say that. But somehow there has been a move to getting them out of their cells and interacting with each other. You oppose tha, I oppose tha, but since the time of Alcatraz that has been the case. Why is that? Why not keep them seperated from each other in their cells?

I don't know..Some of the "drug boys" are only strong and resistant to authorty when surrounded by their friends..

At some point someone had to have given a reason to put them together more. I really want to know the reasons why that choice was made.

We will probably never know..

 

[Touch Of Death]

Tortured??? Are you saying that limiting the things they have is torture?? I'm sorry, but if they can't do the time, don't do the crime! They have access to phone calls, they have access to medical attention, including dental, they have access to a shower, they have access to TV, they have access to 3 square meals a day, they have access to visitors, they have access to councelors, they have access to the prison store, they have access to laundry, they have the chance to work in the prison, such as in the kitchen, and they have rec time, both indoor and out. Oh they also have access to weight equipment. So tell me Sean...exactly how are they being abused, or in your exact words tortured???

Mike

I wasn't talking about what they have, I was refering to the conditions the poster wanted them to have and implying it would cost more money to do so. That is the point of this whole thread by the way.:angel:
Sean

 

[Touch Of Death]

-The issue with prisons is just a smaller part of the big problem in this country. Why do people end up in prison? Multiple answers to that one, biggest one is lack of education and opportunity. And why are those a problem in this country? Multiple answers to that as well. City schools are often a breeding ground for the criminal element. Why? Again, multiple answers. See where I'm going with this? Everything in this country is connected, from how we treat other people to our environmental problems to our prison situation, you can always find a connection.

-Now that might make the problem seem too great to handle. I don't believe it is. Before people end up behind bars, we need to address the issues that put them on that path. Poverty, education, opportunity.
Things won't be peferct but I believe a lot can be made better if we could focus. Now should a person have access to the aforementioned and still proceed to a life of crime, and therefore prison, the place should be somewhere to fear. Yes, fear. A place you really don't want to end up in, cause who knows what might happen inside those walls. Sounds mean, doesn't it?

-If a person is willing to break the law then punishment should be swift and appropriate. No bleeding hearts! If you kill another person, rape, assualt, whatever, then perhaps you have no place in this world. There are people out there who want justice to be served but then make it so that that justice means very little. My problem exactly with the 8th amendment, protection against cruel and unusual punishment, and excessive fines and bail. Poor people cannot pay those last two and depending on the crime, should repay society some other way. Once upon a time, the death penalty was normal, not cruel and unusual.

-I have more to add but my thoughts are flying to fast. Let me leave you with this: I had a sociology professor who also taught college classes to inmates. He stated that the prison had the lowest recidivism rate when the immates had access to education. When they ended the classes, due to public protest, the prison experienced higher recidivism rates. I don't think they should get free college when I had to pay for mine but this shows how important the education is, so effort should be made to educate before prison.

-Just my two cents, good topic, one worth reviewing regularly.

A--->

The whole problem with the education portion of the argument is that because the voting public denys a free education for everyone, we should deny prisoners a chance of rehabilitation.
sean

 

[MJS]

I wasn't talking about what they have, I was refering to the conditions the poster wanted them to have and implying it would cost more money to do so. That is the point of this whole thread by the way.:angel:
Sean

Personally, I think that they have enough. The list of things that I gave, with the exception of the weights, is pretty much a requirement. We can't deprive them of medical care, food, a shower, or a phone call, but we can limit other things. IMO, despite what some people (inmates) may say, they really don't have it bad in prison.

Like I said...don't do the crime if ya can't do the time..plain and simple. The idea is to hopefully reform someone, not give them a Club Med vacation resort treatment.

Mike

 

[MJS]

The whole problem with the education portion of the argument is that because the voting public denys a free education for everyone, we should deny prisoners a chance of rehabilitation.
sean

IMHO, if someone really wanted help, either with an addiction or with education, my question is, why did they wait until they landed in prison to get help?? There are many resources outside of prison. In addition, I often have to wonder if they're really interested in getting that help in prison, or if they're using that time as an excuse to get out of the block for a few hours. I used to see a large group head down to Bible study each week. Now, if they were so interested in religion, why were they out committing crimes?

Mike

 

[jks9199]

I did not say that. But somehow there has been a move to getting them out of their cells and interacting with each other. You oppose tha, I oppose tha, but since the time of Alcatraz that has been the case. Why is that? Why not keep them seperated from each other in their cells? At some point someone had to have given a reason to put them together more. I really want to know the reasons why that choice was made.

I know that some of the reasons are logistical (there isn't enough space for the prisoners to be locked up that way in many facilities), and some are humanitarian (man is, as has been noted, a social animal).

I've had a chance to speak with prison adminstration personnel several times, and heard different opinions about how to deal with prisoners. Just one example... Every year, the Hell's Angels do a run by a prison in California to "honor" their members that are locked up. The prison actually lets the inmates line up along the fence for the drive-by; it's like they're on a reviewing stand at a parade. The first time I heard of this, I thought it was nuts... Until a prison officer explained how much control and leverage they get from this event.

 

[tradrockrat]

what I find so fascinating about threads such as this is how so many opinions are based upon differng views of what government is actually for.

Some people feel government should stay out of everything, others feel it's the governments job to provide everything, while others feel the governments job is to protect its citizens from outside harm only.

Just an observation, but I think that this fundamental disharmony is why we'll never reach a consensus about such topics.

Mr. Roley has posted a few exceptional posts here IMHO - but that is because (I think) that we have a basic fundamental agreement on governemntal roles in this case.

Dark Soul made a great post about the economic / educational issues with crime, but IMHO it doesn't change what we should do with the convicts once they get to prison. It has everything to do with keeping them out of prison in the first place.

 

[jks9199]

The whole problem with the education portion of the argument is that because the voting public denys a free education for everyone, we should deny prisoners a chance of rehabilitation.
sean

Define a free education...

I'll grant that many areas public school systems aren't great -- but they're there. And, in even the worst, somehow, many students manage to learn because they choose to bother. I'll even openly admit that I wasted most of my high school years doing just enough to get by...

Or are you suggesting that college and other higher ed should be free, as well?

 

[Touch Of Death]

IMHO, if someone really wanted help, either with an addiction or with education, my question is, why did they wait until they landed in prison to get help?? There are many resources outside of prison. In addition, I often have to wonder if they're really interested in getting that help in prison, or if they're using that time as an excuse to get out of the block for a few hours. I used to see a large group head down to Bible study each week. Now, if they were so interested in religion, why were they out committing crimes?

Mike

No one goes to prison in the hopes of salvation. They are put there. If you don't believe me open the doors and see who leaves. The public does not believe the prisoners deserve rehabilitation and so they will limit it as much as possible. Therefore we treat them like human beings as cheaply as possible and build more prisons to hold the growing number of people we want off the streets.
Sean

 

[Touch Of Death]

Define a free education...

I'll grant that many areas public school systems aren't great -- but they're there. And, in even the worst, somehow, many students manage to learn because they choose to bother. I'll even openly admit that I wasted most of my high school years doing just enough to get by...

Or are you suggesting that college and other higher ed should be free, as well?

An emphatic yes.
sean

 

[MJS]

No one goes to prison in the hopes of salvation. They are put there. If you don't believe me open the doors and see who leaves. The public does not believe the prisoners deserve rehabilitation and so they will limit it as much as possible. Therefore we treat them like human beings as cheaply as possible and build more prisons to hold the growing number of people we want off the streets.
Sean

I beg to differ on that. Seems like anytime I pick up the paper, someone is stating that due to the over crowding, the inmates should be offered help before prison time.

An emphatic yes.
sean

So Harvard should let people attend for free?

Mike