Who gets to change a kata or technique…

[Kung Fu Wang]

How many times did you practice single leg takedown, before you got good at it? How many times do you continue to practice it, to maintain that skill? Surely it is more than once.

What's the difference between to record the same information

- 8 time in the form, and train the form 1 time,
- 1 time in the form, and train the form 8 times?

 

[lklawson]

Me too. However in the case of sword arts

• There aren't really any instructors in this day and age who have significant real world background. Maybe you can find someone who subdued a burglar with a bokken, but you aren't going to find much in the way of instructors who have fought duels with a real sword or fought on the battlefield with a real sword. Best you can hope for is to find a lineage where an instructor a few generations back did one of those things.
• Fortunately, the odds of having a practical need to use a sword in the modern day are practically nil.

Essentially, we (sword art practitioners) are like aviation enthusiasts in an era where airplanes have all been banned due to the pollution they cause, studying the manuals and practicing in simulators just for the fun of it and to get an idea of what it must have been like for real pilots.


Absolutely. If there's a choice, you want first hand experience or at least an immediate connection to someone who has first hand experience. But if there is no choice, then you have to do your best with what you can get.

I've been avoiding commenting in this thread mostly because I have a long-standing (and oft' stated) theory that if you ask 3 different instructors what the purpose of Kata is, you'll get 4 different answers (at least).

That said, sword fights actually do happen. I used to believe that they were completely absent from the modern world but, well, they're not. I will stipulated that they are comparatively small in the "violent encounters" list (which itself is small compared to any other list). But they do happen, surprisingly more often then I thought. Most seem to be with machete, which, frankly, is a sword (I have a buddy who practices Meyer's Dusak using d-guard machete). A lot of them seem to happen in non-1st-World nations but there are a fair number that crop up in places like England or New York.

You remember this one, right?

A lot of them seem to have disappeared from yootoob but there are still many.

This is one of my favorites. Notice the guy in the background who gets beaned with a rock? He just goes down. Hard. I thought the best part was the defender, but no, it's the simple rock.

Anyway, the short version is, sword training is actually not as useless as I thought way back when.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Flying Crane]

What's the difference between to record the same information

- 8 time in the form, and train the form 1 time,
- 1 time in the form, and train the form 8 times?

They both work. I don’t object to either, nor do I say that one is preferred over the other.

 

[Dirty Dog]

A lot of TKD instructors break stuff for demos, it's kind of your calling card, so I was curious about what you meant and why you thought punching concrete was relevant.

If you're saying it's not, I agree.

Because hitting something hard with power hurts if you do it wrong.

 

[Steve]

That’s still better efficacy than the flu vaccine in most years.

I've heard that with the mRNA vaccines, we may see that improving in future years. In trials now, but looks like there's reason for optimism.

 

[wab25]

We are discussing what the best other possibility can be.

This Karate basic form repeats the "downward block, step in straight punch" 8 times.

If you just

- change one of the downward block into an upward block (or inside out block, or ...),
- change one of the straight punch into a hook punch (or uppercut, or ...),
- repeat "downward block, step in straight punch" 1 time instead of 8 times,

Will your new changed form be more valuable?

In your sentence, do you really need to repeat "I love you" 8 times?

I wanted to go back to this post again... This kata is a simple kata and was created by Funakoshi.

When we first look at it... we see the same two techniques repeated a bunch of times. Then, we realize that the pattern breaks twice, when 3 punches are thrown in a row. Then at some point we realize that the footwork is different and changes, even though we are in the same stance the whole time. Then we realize there is stuff happening in between the punch, the block and the step.

We then learn that each technique can have multiple applications. The punch can be a punch, a push, an escape, an off balancing, a joint lock, a throw... As Tony pointed out, there are subtle differences (sometimes major differences) in how the body works to accomplish these different applications. So now, your first punch is a punch, the second a throw, the third a joint lock, the fourth an escape... There are a lot of combinations here, that you could come up with, doing the same techniques. This will unlock all kinds of things to work on with the footwork and the transitions.

We then realize that this is about body unification. How to move your body as a single unit. How to put your body behind your punch and your block. How to start and stop in control, how to turn with control. How to connect your foot to your hand.

Then we can start looking at the whole kata, instead of the individual parts. It shows how to create a pattern, and then break the pattern, how to set an expectation and break the expectation. It shows how to be aware of your surroundings. It talks about always covering up and returning to a guard position... return to the guard position before moving, before turning. It talks about entering... you enter when you strike and you also enter when you block... when you change direction, you do so by entering. It talks about clearing the defenses out of the way before you attack, clearing the way for your attack. It teaches you to think moves ahead... not just one move at a time... I need to throw my down block and punch in a way that I am ready to turn 180 degrees... meaning if I had an opponent on both sides, I need to take care of the first, before turning to the second... when turning to the second opponent, my entering in motion also creates more space between me and the first guy... Since I always have to guard my center right after the punch or the block, as I move to the next technique... it means that at the correct punching position or blocking position, there was an opening... so that you can study how you open yourself to attack....

Additionally, we can actually reference what Funakoshi said about this particular kata and what he hoped we would get out of it. From Karate-Do Kyohan, by Funakoshi: (KARATE-DO KYOHAN)

TAIKYOKU (FIRST CAUSE)
This is in fact three kata, numbered Shodan, Nidan, and Sandan. Since this form is the easiest of the kata to learn and consists of those blocks and attacks that are the most helpful in practicing basic techniques, it should be the form with which beginners start. This kata and the Tenno Kata to be described below are the product of my many years of research into the art of karate. If they are practiced regularly, they will result in an even development of the body and in a sound ability to bear the body correctly. Moreover, the student who has gained proficiency in basic techniques and understands the essence of the Taikyoku Kata will appreciate the real meaning of the maxim, In karate, there is no advantage in the first attack. It is for these reasons that I have given them the name Taikyoku.

The creator of the kata is expecting it to relate to and explain the karate precept: "In karate, there is no advantage in the first attack." I have not been able to fully get that far yet... I still have much to learn from this kata. The point here is that there is much more in the kata, than just random techniques, put into a catalog or dictionary. If I were to go about changing this kata, sure I could have it include and show all the things I explained above... however, I am not sure that I could have it fulfill Funakoshi's desire to have it explain the precept. I would probably miss a few other things as well. This is one of the more interesting kata, since we have the creators own words, describing his goals and intentions for the kata.

This is why I like to look at the history of an art... one reason is to see who changed what and why... And by who, what was their understanding of the kata, when they made the changes...

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

What's the difference between to record the same information

- 8 time in the form, and train the form 1 time,
- 1 time in the form, and train the form 8 times?

Because, if you break up the form, then you end up not performing the transitions between the postures. This also means that you do not stay down on your legs for the same length of time, losing the excercise/exertion benefit. In my opinion, this equates to seeking a shortcut. In my opinion, the seeking of shortcuts equate to a lack of patience which is part of the training.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

They both work. I don’t object to either, nor do I say that one is preferred over the other.

Well you and I differ here. But that’s ok.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I've heard that with the mRNA vaccines, we may see that improving in future years. In trials now, but looks like there's reason for optimism.

I’m not against vaccines, quite the contrary. I am however disappointed by any product which works less than 60% of the time.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I've been avoiding commenting in this thread mostly because I have a long-standing (and oft' stated) theory that if you ask 3 different instructors what the purpose of Kata is, you'll get 4 different answers (at least).

That said, sword fights actually do happen. I used to believe that they were completely absent from the modern world but, well, they're not. I will stipulated that they are comparatively small in the "violent encounters" list (which itself is small compared to any other list). But they do happen, surprisingly more often then I thought. Most seem to be with machete, which, frankly, is a sword (I have a buddy who practices Meyer's Dusak using d-guard machete). A lot of them seem to happen in non-1st-World nations but there are a fair number that crop up in places like England or New York.

You remember this one, right?

A lot of them seem to have disappeared from yootoob but there are still many.

This is one of my favorites. Notice the guy in the background who gets beaned with a rock? He just goes down. Hard. I thought the best part was the defender, but no, it's the simple rock.

Anyway, the short version is, sword training is actually not as useless as I thought way back when.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Wow! That is scary! One small error and life is different forever, or just over.

 

[Steve]

I’m not against vaccines, quite the contrary. I am however disappointed by any product which works less than 60% of the time.

Regarding flu vaccines (and vaccines in general), aren't they all very effective against the strains for which they are designed... and the progressively less effective the more disparate the strains?

I recall with Covid, for example, the vaccines were all extremely effective against the early strains for which it was designed (mid to high 90's). As time goes on, the virus is allowed to persist and new strains arise, the vaccines are less effective.

So, I guess it's one of those things where it depends. If the flu vaccines were very effective against one strain, but you get another strain, doesn't it seem reasonable you would be less well protected?

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Regarding flu vaccines (and vaccines in general), aren't they all very effective against the strains for which they are designed... and the progressively less effective the more disparate the strains?

I recall with Covid, for example, the vaccines were all extremely effective against the early strains for which it was designed (mid to high 90's). As time goes on, the virus is allowed to persist and new strains arise, the vaccines are less effective.

So, I guess it's one of those things where it depends. If the flu vaccines were very effective against one strain, but you get another strain, doesn't it seem reasonable you would be less well protected?

Although I am in the medical profession, I’m not well educated on this subject. Perhaps someone else could speak to this?

 

[Dirty Dog]

Regarding flu vaccines (and vaccines in general), aren't they all very effective against the strains for which they are designed... and the progressively less effective the more disparate the strains?

I recall with Covid, for example, the vaccines were all extremely effective against the early strains for which it was designed (mid to high 90's). As time goes on, the virus is allowed to persist and new strains arise, the vaccines are less effective.

So, I guess it's one of those things where it depends. If the flu vaccines were very effective against one strain, but you get another strain, doesn't it seem reasonable you would be less well protected?

Essentially correct. There are four basic types of flu. A&B cause nasty epidemics. C does not. D really only affects cows. Those four types are defined by the proteins associated with them.
Within each of those types there are a huge number of variants. The flu vaccine protects against A&B. The difficulty is predicting which subtypes to cover. Protecting against all would require a shot the size of a Buick. When the WHO predictions are spot on, the vaccine is typically 40-60% effective overall. Mostly because even when the predictions are correct, the flu virus mutates incredibly fast, and all of the less-common variants are still out there for you to catch.

The Covid vaccines were 90% effective against the original strains. FYI, a 1st generation vaccine is considered a great success if it is 80% effective. As new variants develop, they may be less (or more) controllable by the vaccines. And the vaccines will be modified as we learn more about the virus and the variants. When a new variant appears, the three big questions are:
1 - How contagious is it?
2 - How well does the current vaccine work against it?
3 - How severe are the symptoms it causes?

In a perfect world, the new variant would be less contagious, more vulnerable to the vaccines, and cause minor symptoms.

The Omicron variant, which currently accounts for about 75% of the infections in the US, is more contagious and pretty good at getting past the vaccines. Currently, it looks like people who are up to date on vaccines and boosters are getting about 70% protection from infection, and about 88% protection against severe infection. Vaccinated without boosters is about 40% protection and 70% against severe infection. So that variant is worse on #1 and #2, but a win on #3.

Staying on topic... I don't think you should change a kata based on your vaccine status.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Regarding flu vaccines (and vaccines in general), aren't they all very effective against the strains for which they are designed... and the progressively less effective the more disparate the strains?

I recall with Covid, for example, the vaccines were all extremely effective against the early strains for which it was designed (mid to high 90's). As time goes on, the virus is allowed to persist and new strains arise, the vaccines are less effective.

So, I guess it's one of those things where it depends. If the flu vaccines were very effective against one strain, but you get another strain, doesn't it seem reasonable you would be less well protec

Essentially correct. There are four basic types of flu. A&B cause nasty epidemics. C does not. D really only affects cows. Those four types are defined by the proteins associated with them.
Within each of those types there are a huge number of variants. The flu vaccine protects against A&B. The difficulty is predicting which subtypes to cover. Protecting against all would require a shot the size of a Buick. When the WHO predictions are spot on, the vaccine is typically 40-60% effective overall. Mostly because even when the predictions are correct, the flu virus mutates incredibly fast, and all of the less-common variants are still out there for you to catch.

The Covid vaccines were 90% effective against the original strains. FYI, a 1st generation vaccine is considered a great success if it is 80% effective. As new variants develop, they may be less (or more) controllable by the vaccines. And the vaccines will be modified as we learn more about the virus and the variants. When a new variant appears, the three big questions are:
1 - How contagious is it?
2 - How well does the current vaccine work against it?
3 - How severe are the symptoms it causes?

In a perfect world, the new variant would be less contagious, more vulnerable to the vaccines, and cause minor symptoms.

The Omicron variant, which currently accounts for about 75% of the infections in the US, is more contagious and pretty good at getting past the vaccines. Currently, it looks like people who are up to date on vaccines and boosters are getting about 70% protection from infection, and about 88% protection against severe infection. Vaccinated without boosters is about 40% protection and 70% against severe infection. So that variant is worse on #1 and #2, but a win on #3.

Staying on topic... I don't think you should change a kata based on your vaccine status.

Thank you! I was hoping you would speak to this. Much appreciated.

 

[dvcochran]

Practice/training really is about repetition, though. Repetition is how skills improve. What is wrong with a kata that has repetition?

I believe this example is a TKD form, not karate.

The first basic form in TKD has 8 blocks and 12 punches.

 

[Hyoho]

Isn't it implicit that folks who would modify a kata are competent? And if we accept that as a given, can we not trust that they will only modify a kata in a way that is safe, if they choose to modify it at all?

If the kata was made up in the first place? Associations do it all the time. If its an original classical art? The headmaster has the intellectual copyright to do as he wishes. Hopefully he also has the common sense to realize that changes will be in the "grey area" of a waza. It's waza that be altered, not a kata (section to study in depth).

 

[Dirty Dog]

The first basic form in TKD has 8 blocks and 12 punches.

Not all varieties of TKD use the same form sets, so depending on the branch, your statement may or may not be correct.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Not that the Korean point of view is wrong about anything...ever...

Can we switch gears to China for a moment? Does everyone here see the skill difference now? Or not?

I mean between the entry level TKD and Shotokan forms, and this one.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I’m not against vaccines, quite the contrary. I am however disappointed by any product which works less than 60% of the time.

I’m good with anything that improves my chances of a favorable outcome by 25-40%. I prefer it more effective , but that’s not bad, as improvements go.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Regarding flu vaccines (and vaccines in general), aren't they all very effective against the strains for which they are designed... and the progressively less effective the more disparate the strains?

I recall with Covid, for example, the vaccines were all extremely effective against the early strains for which it was designed (mid to high 90's). As time goes on, the virus is allowed to persist and new strains arise, the vaccines are less effective.

So, I guess it's one of those things where it depends. If the flu vaccines were very effective against one strain, but you get another strain, doesn't it seem reasonable you would be less well protected?

Agreed. The low performance is in the ability to predict which strains will be prominent. At least, that’s my understanding.