Who gets to change a kata or technique…

[Wing Woo Gar]

Very good question. I like that you clarify that you aren't talking about "dancing through it?" I've seen that done in some schools, where the goal is to learn as many forms as possible and as a result they understand very little.

I don’t teach any ”forms” to people until they have a solid foundation of fitness and basics. There is absolutely no point to it without that. It’s just a bunch of slop with no juice in it. Generally speaking, a solidly consistent student who trains several times a week will take two years to get to a place where they can learn the form correctly. Even then, until they have the choreography, they are dancing. I am a hard taskmaster like my teachers, but would never think to put a beginner to the task of learning the forms without the necessary conditioning. We have Tam Tui, Mok Gar, Hung Gar, Tong Long Pai, Yut ChI Kuen Chak, Di Yee Kuen, Chan Kuen, etc. These are are physically demanding, more so with cotton soled slippers on a slippery hard floor. That’s part of why very few students stay with it long enough to get to the forms. I don’t waste time on people who aren’t willing to do the hard work necessary to get there. There are no shortcuts.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

TKD started out as a bunch of different schools with different styles, backgrounds, and influences. There have been several attempts to get them all to merge into one giant all-encompassing group. These has varying levels of success, but obviously never complete. Some groups join. Some do not. Some that joined stay. Some do not. I've seen numbers that show as many as 70 million people practice taekwondo. Good luck getting 70 people to totally agree on anything. 70,000,000? It is to laugh...

Is there one you consider superior in training methodology or results?

 

[Steve]

If it's not Kukkiwon TKD, it's not really TKD.

...

...

I'll show myself out.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Is there one you consider superior in training methodology or results?

Mine, of course!
But honestly, no. I have rank in KKW, ITF and MDK styles. I offer rank in KKW and MDK. I will teach the ITF Tul, if a student is interested, but do not offer rank in that style. The training methodology is grossly similar, and differences can probably be attributed to either the individual or the focus of the school/style. KKW, for example, is very very sport oriented. ITF less so. MDK not at all. But a MDK student can certainly fight in a tourney, and a KKW student can defend themselves. And a student of any could transfer to a school teaching another and feel at home fairly quickly.
That doesn't apply just to TKD either. I think it's fairly easy for someone from one hard style to switch to another hard style.

 

[Dirty Dog]

If it's not Kukkiwon TKD, it's not really TKD.

...

...

I'll show myself out.

When you say silly things like this, you're supposed to call it WTF/WT TKD. Since that doesn't even exist.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Mine, of course!
But honestly, no. I have rank in KKW, ITF and MDK styles. I offer rank in KKW and MDK. I will teach the ITF Tul, if a student is interested, but do not offer rank in that style. The training methodology is grossly similar, and differences can probably be attributed to either the individual or the focus of the school/style. KKW, for example, is very very sport oriented. ITF less so. MDK not at all. But a MDK student can certainly fight in a tourney, and a KKW student can defend themselves. And a student of any could transfer to a school teaching another and feel at home fairly quickly.
That doesn't apply just to TKD either. I think it's fairly easy for someone from one hard style to switch to another hard style.

Thank you. That is quite informative.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Good luck getting 70 people to totally agree on anything.

ha ha ha. I think of MartialTalk.com. Mission impossible.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Mine, of course!
But honestly, no. I have rank in KKW, ITF and MDK styles. I offer rank in KKW and MDK. I will teach the ITF Tul, if a student is interested, but do not offer rank in that style. The training methodology is grossly similar, and differences can probably be attributed to either the individual or the focus of the school/style. KKW, for example, is very very sport oriented. ITF less so. MDK not at all. But a MDK student can certainly fight in a tourney, and a KKW student can defend themselves. And a student of any could transfer to a school teaching another and feel at home fairly quickly.
That doesn't apply just to TKD either. I think it's fairly easy for someone from one hard style to switch to another hard style.

I’m curious about the mdk guys going to tournament. Do you find that they have a harder time adapting to the specific rules? The reason I ask this is because you say they are not as sport oriented. I realize this might sound like a silly question but I am unfamiliar with TKD in general, and even more so with tournaments.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I don’t teach any ”forms” to people until they have a solid foundation of fitness and basics. There is absolutely no point to it without that. It’s just a bunch of slop with no juice in it. Generally speaking, a solidly consistent student who trains several times a week will take two years to get to a place where they can learn the form correctly. Even then, until they have the choreography, they are dancing. I am a hard taskmaster like my teachers, but would never think to put a beginner to the task of learning the forms without the necessary conditioning. We have Tam Tui, Mok Gar, Hung Gar, Tong Long Pai, Yut ChI Kuen Chak, Di Yee Kuen, Chan Kuen, etc. These are are physically demanding, more so with cotton soled slippers on a slippery hard floor. That’s part of why very few students stay with it long enough to get to the forms. I don’t waste time on people who aren’t willing to do the hard work necessary to get there. There are no shortcuts.

So... it's probably sort of silly to try to compare a form meant to be taught after years of training to one that is meant to be taught to someone the day they walk through the door for the first time...

 

[Flying Crane]

So... it's probably sort of silly to try to compare a form meant to be taught after years of training to one that is meant to be taught to someone the day they walk through the door for the first time...

That is true, and speaks to a very different approach to training altogether. The material would be fundamentally different.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

So... it's probably sort of silly to try to compare a form meant to be taught after years of training to one that is meant to be taught to someone the day they walk through the door for the first time...

Right, well like i said, I don’t teach them any forms until they have basics and conditioning. That takes quite a while and some folks just never get there. That is ok, some people come train just for excercise. I have no problem with that. I start them with no expectations. I don’t award rank, and I don’t teach children, so my pool of students tend to be college age athletic types.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I’m curious about the mdk guys going to tournament. Do you find that they have a harder time adapting to the specific rules? The reason I ask this is because you say they are not as sport oriented. I realize this might sound like a silly question but I am unfamiliar with TKD in general, and even more so with tournaments.

We don't really care about tournaments at all. We do take students to them from time to time. Because they want to go. But it's not at all a focus of the way we train.
Difficulties do arise, most commonly because we don't limit ourselves to WT-style tournies. And open tournies have widely varying rule sets. A couple examples.
We took a handful of students to an open tourney. I competed in the weapons sparring, using shinai. Their rules did not allow strikes to the head.
At another event, we were told that you would not score if you pulled your strikes. Hogu, headgear, hands and feet. One of the students I took was 13-14. She was a blue belt, so she'd been training with us a few years at that time. She was told the rule was contact, but I also specifically told her not to go 100% power. One sidekick to the abdomen and her opponent declined to finish the match. It wasn't a full power shot by any means, but apparently their definition of contact and ours differ.
And, frankly, reflexes can be a problem. At one of the few WT-style tournies we've been to, I had a 1st Geup student DQ'd. Because he simply couldn't stop punching people in their wide-open heads.
Those issues could all be resolved by spending time training under the rules in force. We do not. If students want to go compete, we discuss the rules as published for that event, but we don't spend any significant amount of time training with them.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

So... it's probably sort of silly to try to compare a form meant to be taught after years of training to one that is meant to be taught to someone the day they walk through the door for the first time...

That was my point to oily dragon, that the tiger crane form is not something a new student could do correctly.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I don’t teach any ”forms” to people until they have a solid foundation of fitness and basics. There is absolutely no point to it without that. It’s just a bunch of slop with no juice in it. Generally speaking, a solidly consistent student who trains several times a week will take two years to get to a place where they can learn the form correctly. Even then, until they have the choreography, they are dancing. I am a hard taskmaster like my teachers, but would never think to put a beginner to the task of learning the forms without the necessary conditioning. We have Tam Tui, Mok Gar, Hung Gar, Tong Long Pai, Yut ChI Kuen Chak, Di Yee Kuen, Chan Kuen, etc. These are are physically demanding, more so with cotton soled slippers on a slippery hard floor. That’s part of why very few students stay with it long enough to get to the forms. I don’t waste time on people who aren’t willing to do the hard work necessary to get there. There are no shortcuts.

Chinese Martial Art movement requires a rewiring of the brain. Most beginners that trained in our school was always surprised when they discovered that they had a hard time to get their bodies to do what they eyes are seeing.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

We don't really care about tournaments at all. We do take students to them from time to time. Because they want to go. But it's not at all a focus of the way we train.
Difficulties do arise, most commonly because we don't limit ourselves to WT-style tournies. And open tournies have widely varying rule sets. A couple examples.
We took a handful of students to an open tourney. I competed in the weapons sparring, using shinai. Their rules did not allow strikes to the head.
At another event, we were told that you would not score if you pulled your strikes. Hogu, headgear, hands and feet. One of the students I took was 13-14. She was a blue belt, so she'd been training with us a few years at that time. She was told the rule was contact, but I also specifically told her not to go 100% power. One sidekick to the abdomen and her opponent declined to finish the match. It wasn't a full power shot by any means, but apparently their definition of contact and ours differ.
And, frankly, reflexes can be a problem. At one of the few WT-style tournies we've been to, I had a 1st Geup student DQ'd. Because he simply couldn't stop punching people in their wide-open heads.
Those issues could all be resolved by spending time training under the rules in force. We do not. If students want to go compete, we discuss the rules as published for that event, but we don't spend any significant amount of time training with them.

That’s kind of what I would expect. I don’t imagine most of my students would get through a tournament without a DQ except the most advanced ones because they have a lot of self control.

 

[Dirty Dog]

That’s kind of what I would expect. I don’t imagine most of my students would get through a tournament without a DQ except the most advanced ones because they have a lot of self control.

Well, if they'd just spar using our rules...

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Chinese Martial Art movement requires a rewiring of the brain. Most beginners that trained in our school was always surprised when they discovered that they had a hard time to get their bodies to do what they eyes are seeing.

The truest of statements! I remember it well From my beginnings. Definitely requires the empty cup. I find that women are easier to train at first. I also find that is easier to teach students that don’t have much martial arts experience.

 

[Steve]

When you say silly things like this, you're supposed to call it WTF/WT TKD. Since that doesn't even exist.

When I see WTF TKD, I wonder why there isn't a question mark at the end. Like... WTF, TKD?

And WT TKD makes me wonder what a Wing Tsun and TKD hybrid would even look like.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Well, if they'd just spar using our rules...

Yes indeed. Damn rules.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Chinese Martial Art movement requires a rewiring of the brain. Most beginners that trained in our school was always surprised when they discovered that they had a hard time to get their bodies to do what they eyes are seeing.

And even harder to do without dancing through it. Adding power to the movement is another level completely.