What are my options?

[jks9199]

Gentlemen, drop the spitting contest or take it to PMs. Everybody knows you don't like each other.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Gentlemen, drop the spitting contest or take it to PMs. Everybody knows you don't like each other.

I didn't consider this a spitting contest until Glenn tried (once again) to make the thread about me. However, since Glenn knows that he has been offered a venue to discuss 'me', should he chose to actually take it, his attempts at derailing the thread can be ignored.

Back to the OP

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Hey bud, I actually ended up not training at the CHKD school, so I can't really comment on the system from personal experience. However, I did communicate with GM Pellegrini via Email so I can comment on what little experience I have dealing with him and his organization. First off, he seems to have a genuine interest in spreading the art of hapkido and is very accommodating to people interested in the art. His organization also provides tons of opportunities to participate in different seminars that focus specifically on certain aspects that dont really get covered on a daily basis in your everyday hapkido class. The man is very open in welcoming in people who simply enjoy training. Based off of what I saw I would definitely say check out the CHKD school near you. Obviously, the instructor and training environment in that specific dojang is what is most important but he seems to have a pretty solid group so I see no reason why you should stay clear.

Was there anything in particular that made you decline training at the CHKD school? What did you decide to do for your training?

 

[MAist25]

Yes. I ended up leaving the school and that is why i was looking for somewhere else to train. Myself and another one of my instructors highest ranking students both left. About 2 months later, I got a call from my buddy who tested alongside me for our black belts, and he told me our teacher was closing the school down. Instead of letting it go he decided to take charge and became the head instructor to keep the school open. We were set to test for our 2nd Dan's the same summer, but never got the chance to because I left first and the school closed before he could. So, we called up the head of the organization we belong to and told him what was going on. He encouraged us to keep the school open and promoted us both to 2nd Dan a short while later. So now we are the head instructors at the school and continue our training mostly through seminars with the organization and just teach and practice what we know, which is up to 2nd Dan. I'm also a 2nd Dan in TKD and continue training on a daily basis in that. No idea what we're going to do about promoting people but right now the vast majority of our students are beginners and we are not a school that is really into ranks, just training hard, so we'll worry about promoting when the time comes.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Yes. I ended up leaving the school and that is why i was looking for somewhere else to train. Myself and another one of my instructors highest ranking students both left. About 2 months later, I got a call from my buddy who tested alongside me for our black belts, and he told me our teacher was closing the school down. Instead of letting it go he decided to take charge and became the head instructor to keep the school open. We were set to test for our 2nd Dan's the same summer, but never got the chance to because I left first and the school closed before he could. So, we called up the head of the organization we belong to and told him what was going on. He encouraged us to keep the school open and promoted us both to 2nd Dan a short while later. So now we are the head instructors at the school and continue our training mostly through seminars with the organization and just teach and practice what we know, which is up to 2nd Dan. I'm also a 2nd Dan in TKD and continue training on a daily basis in that. No idea what we're going to do about promoting people but right now the vast majority of our students are beginners and we are not a school that is really into ranks, just training hard, so we'll worry about promoting when the time comes.

Excellent! I'm happy that everything has worked out for you and the school. I agree, don't worry about the ranks and promotions until it is much closer to an actual need. By then, I'm sure the organization can assist you with it.

 

[Indie12]

Glad to hear everything worked out for you! I will add, that a piece of paper doesn't necessarily signify quality!

 

[MAist25]

Thanks guys! Yea, I'm really happy with the way things worked out.

 

[Indie12]

What I meant to say was, a certificate doesn't necessarily mean the Instructors of qualitiy nor actually know's what he/she is doing or teaching. A certificate is just a piece of paper, like a belt is just a piece of clothing!

 

[Kong Soo Do]

What I meant to say was, a certificate doesn't necessarily mean the Instructors of qualitiy nor actually know's what he/she is doing or teaching. A certificate is just a piece of paper, like a belt is just a piece of clothing!

Very true. A true martial artist is what he/she can do and/or teach. Not what is on their wall or around their waist.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Negative Glenn.

Webster's defines the word 'unique' as follows;

: Being the only one.
: Being without a like or equal.

If there were no outward signs (such as signs, labels, uniforms etc), and a person walked into a room where practitioners were training, they would be hard pressed to distinguish between Hapkido, Aiki Jujutsu, Chin Na or a variety of other arts of a similar nature. Indeed, even within one art such as Hapkido, some have forms and some don't. Some emphasis more kicking, others less. Some more realistic principles, others not so much. Hapkido certainly isn't the only one and it certainly isn't without like or equal. It is a label.

I have to agree with Glenn on this one.

And yes, if there were no outward signs (such as signs, labels, uniforms etc), and a person (assuming that he or she knew what they were looking at) walked into a room where practitioners were training, it would be fairly easy to distinguish between the arts that you listed and hapkido. And you can include aikdio on that list as well. The differences go well beyond the uniform. They may not be apparent to a non-hapkidoin, but they are there and though they may be subtle, they do make the art unique.

Yes, there are different expressions. But those expressions each share what makes hapkido hapkido.

 

[puunui]

They may not be apparent to a non-hapkidoin, but they are there and though they may be subtle, they do make the art unique.

I studied both Shotokan Karate and Aikido before studying Taekwondo and Hapkido, and in the beginning, I would look at Taekwondo and Hapkido in comparison to Karate and Aikido, saying this or that was the same. But as I progressed down the road, I came to a place where I saw taekwondo and hapkido for what they are, each its own unique martial art. To me, the day I stopped making those types of comparisons was the day that I became a true taekwondoin/hapkidoin. It was that day that I got rid of a mental block which prevented me from seeing these two arts in their own right.

 

[dancingalone]

So out of curiosity what is the perceived distinguishing physical characteristic hapkido when contrasted to aikido or jujutsu or chin na? The primary one I have observed as someone who practices aikido is the hapkido versions of the locks and pins are more direct or abrupt and thus likely cause more pain and physical damage. (I am most familiar with the hapkido as taught by some people in GM JR West's group.)

 

[puunui]

So out of curiosity what is the perceived distinguishing physical characteristic hapkido when contrasted to aikido or jujutsu or chin na? The primary one I have observed as someone who practices aikido is the hapkido versions of the locks and pins are more direct or abrupt and thus likely cause more pain and physical damage. (I am most familiar with the hapkido as taught by some people in GM JR West's group.)

As you stated, Aikido is much more circular than Hapkido as far as the execution of techniques. The philosophical emphasis is also different, even though in my opinion both aikido and hapkido have a generally non-violent disposition. It isn't the joint locks and throws so much as it is the entire experience. A hapkido class feels different and is structured differently than an aikido one.

 

[zDom]

As you stated, Aikido is much more circular than Hapkido as far as the execution of techniques. The philosophical emphasis is also different, even though in my opinion both aikido and hapkido have a generally non-violent disposition. It isn't the joint locks and throws so much as it is the entire experience. A hapkido class feels different and is structured differently than an aikido one.

Hapkido as we train it at the MSK does have both circular and linear movements, both soft style and hard style techniques.

As for the "non-violent disposition" of hapkido I would disagree. We train followups which add trauma on top of the trauma to ensure the threat is ended rather than hoping, as I understand Aikido does, that our attacker will see the error of his/her ways and decide to stop attacking. "Do as little harm to the attacker as possible" is NOT very high on our list of priorities.

 

[puunui]

As for the "non-violent disposition" of hapkido I would disagree. We train followups which add trauma on top of the trauma to ensure the threat is ended rather than hoping, as I understand Aikido does, that our attacker will see the error of his/her ways and decide to stop attacking. "Do as little harm to the attacker as possible" is NOT very high on our list of priorities.

So under your hapkido, the guiding principle is to add "trauma on top of the trauma to ensure the threat is ended"? Is that something that was taught by the founder of your style, or was that added later by someone else? If it was someone else, who was the person who made the above your guiding philosophy? You?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

"Do as little harm to the attacker as possible" is NOT very high on our list of priorities.

I can relate to this and felt this way up until relatively recently. I had to come to terms with the fact that this goes against my beliefs in every other area of my life. I have concluded that putting more harm and negativity back into the world does not make the world a better place, regardless of how it makes me feel at the time.

 

[zDom]

So under your hapkido, the guiding principle is to add "trauma on top of the trauma to ensure the threat is ended"? Is that something that was taught by the founder of your style, or was that added later by someone else? If it was someone else, who was the person who made the above your guiding philosophy? You?

That was a paraphrase. To be more specific, we train to always follow up after a throw.

Now for some context:

My instructor was taught by Lee H. Park who learned from Won Kwang-Wha (fun fact: He Young Kimm asked Park to join him in the U.S. in part so that Kimm could continue training in hapkido).

Won Kwang-Wha was a body guard for a congressman. Practical combat applications are very much a part of the Korean MSK and Park's MSK (named in honor of the kwan in which he was trained, but a curriculum set by Park).

It is not our priority to hurt an attacker as much as possible. We do work techniques for control and restraint. But ending the threat, rendering an attacker unable to continue attacking, is a higher priority than the physical welfare of our attacker.

Example of how this is reflected in technique: after a throw, we immediately follow up. Our choice — could be stomp kick, punch, neck break, drop into a choke or armbar.. whatever.

But it reflects a mindset of: train to make SURE they stay down. Default setting is "followup technique" but we are people of good character. If an opponent is obviously seriously hurt by a throw and not continuing an attack, we don't stomp on their head.

But we certainly are not going to let them regain their feet and composure only to attack again because of some altrustic spiritual path.

 

[zDom]

Compare this, if you will, to how LEO and CCWers are instructed to use their firearms: stop the threat.

Don't "shoot to wound" or "fire warning shots" or even "shoot to kill" — just continue shooting until the threat is ended. THEN worry about the attacker's wellbeing or not.

Same deal with MSK HKD, as I understand it.

 

[dancingalone]

But we certainly are not going to let them regain their feet and composure only to attack again because of some altrustic spiritual path.

Who would? The philosophy implicit within aikido doesn't say we should favor peace to the point of victimizing ourselves. It's merely that we should do the minimum amount of hurt to another in the goal of protecting ourselves. If that means not hurting our attacker at all, that's great. Otherwise, we do the best we can.

 

[puunui]

My instructor was taught by Lee H. Park who learned from Won Kwang-Wha (fun fact: He Young Kimm asked Park to join him in the U.S. in part so that Kimm could continue training in hapkido).

And Dr. Kimm left the Moo Sul Kwan in favor of Kuk Sool and eventually Sin Moo Hapkido because he felt the Moo Sul Kwan curriculum was limited technically and he wanted more.

Won Kwang-Wha was a body guard for a congressman. Practical combat applications are very much a part of the Korean MSK and Park's MSK (named in honor of the kwan in which he was trained, but a curriculum set by Park).

Other hapkido practitioners served as bodyguards for politicians as well. GM Ji and many of his students for example, were bodyguards for the President of Korea.

It is not our priority to hurt an attacker as much as possible. We do work techniques for control and restraint. But ending the threat, rendering an attacker unable to continue attacking, is a higher priority than the physical welfare of our attacker.

And there are many ways to accomplish that. For example, your wife or daughter flips out and starts attacking you. Are you going to "add trauma on top of the trauma to ensure the threat is ended"? After you throw your wife or daughter, which follow up would you use -- a stomp kick, punch, neck break, drop into a choke or armbar?

we are people of good character.

I'm sure that you are of good character. I hope and assume all true hapkido practitioners and martial artists are the same way, until proven otherwise.

If an opponent is obviously seriously hurt by a throw and not continuing an attack, we don't stomp on their head. But we certainly are not going to let them regain their feet and composure only to attack again because of some altrustic spiritual path.

I think you misunderstand what was written previously. dancing alone gives a good explanation of not only aikido's "altrusitic spiritual path" but hapkido's as well.