Where do they get rank?

[iron_ox]

Hello all,

Just curious, can someone tell me where Seo, In Sun got his rank above third dan? He lists in his bio that in 1958 he got a first dan from Choi, Yong Sul, then in 1961 a third dan in Hapkido.

How is he qualified to run a Hapkido organization with this rank, or does someone have information about his rank in Hapkido (not Kuk Sool Won) after 1961. Remember, Kuk Sool Won (so they have told us for 20+ years) is not Hapkido - so rank there is not Hapkido rank - or is it?

 

[Disco]

http://www.kidohae.com/chairman.htm

Found this, I think all this will do is open the door to more questions. Especially the time frame between 1961 & 1966.

 

[iron_ox]

Hello Mike,

Exactly, where else did he get rank?

 

[Paul B]

Why don't you call and ask? His son has a Dojang in Freemont Ca. if that helps. I am sure he would be willing to talk to you guys.

 

[glad2bhere]

Actually, I DID ask Steve (Seo) this very question, and was essentially told that if I had serious doubts about the organization that maybe this was not the organization for me. No answer to my original question just a veiled comment asking me to "watch my step".

With no tradition of the sort of succession that people in the Japanese culture enjoy in their martial art organizational model its not too surprising that Koreans play rather fast and loose with such things. Are we then surprised when their Western disciples likewise play fast and loose? FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[kwanjang]

Better yet, attend one of his seminars and SEE how he moves. He just did a seminar in the Chicago area, and I did not see any of you there to personally get on the mat with him to check out his validity. I believe he will be back for an encore next year, and I am VERY sure he would be more than willing to "share" his technique. Any problems with that????

Paper can tell you just so much; however, what is done on the mat tells the real story. I am beginning to think that some of you folks forget what really counts, because you seem to be soooo preoccupied with paper trails.

I have on more than one occasion stated my lineage and time in rank publicly, and I am here to tell you that GM Seo is ten times the technician I am regardless of what papers he can produce. It is but one reason why I am happy to learn from him any day.

Not hot under the collar here, just wondering why we have to resort to creating doubt when it is sooo easy to get on the mat with him. His Dojang in Korea is open to all visitors, and, unless you come in with an attitude, you will be treated with respect regardless of what Kwan you belong to.

 

[Paul B]

QUOTE] I believe he will be back for an encore next year, and I am VERY sure he would be more than willing to "share" his technique. Any problems with that???? [/QUOTE]
Did you get any date on that,Mr. Timmerman? and....lol.

I'll see you there!

 

[Miles]

With no tradition of the sort of succession that people in the Japanese culture enjoy in their martial art organizational model its not too surprising that Koreans play rather fast and loose with such things. Are we then surprised when their Western disciples likewise play fast and loose? FWIW.

Actually, the Japanese did the same thing. In Harry Cook's "Precise History of Shotokan Karate", he states that, "Until 1964, the highest grades awarded in Shotokan had been 5th dan, but by May 1964, both Masatoshi Nakayama and Minoru Miyata were graded to 8th dan and manyother seniors were awarded 6th and 7th dans." (P175)

The Okinawans did likewise. In Seikichi Toguchi's "Okinawan Goju-Ryu II", he writes, "Since Miyagi died suddenly the following year (1953), none of us received dan ranking from him. The truth of the matter is that we, his senior students, promoted each other in an effort to promote goju-ryu." (Pp 24-25)

In TKD there is a centralized headquarters-Kukkiwon. The same is not true for hapkido, but there are several grandmasters whose status really is above rank. The bottom line regardless of style should always be what one can do on the mat.

Miles

 

[kwanjang]

Hello Paul:
I did not get news on that yet, but I'll be there

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Rudy:

Perhaps I am missing something, so I share the following with some care. All the same I think there is some part of the message that is being lost here and I, for my part, believe it needs to be said. Please bear with me.

In the kwan to which I belong, as well as the organization (WHF) that proceeds from it the highest TECHNICAL rank (rank for which one tests and reflects ones' technical ability and accumin) is 7th dan. 8th, 9th and 10th dan all reflect organizational, managerial or supervisory positions. These positions may (or may not) have been preceeded by a range of technical ranks. Thats not for me to say as it is GM Myung, not I, who assigns these ranks. The reason that I raise any of this is that I believe that at least in the kwan to which I belong I have a reasonable expectation of leadership from the people to whom GM Myung assigns ranks 8 through 10. Now, whether it is fair or not, I believe that I am also justified in expecting some level of leadership from ANYONE who claims to have an 8th, 9th or 10th degree BB, and for me this goes beyong the matter of advertising ranks, bestowing credentials or assigning standing.

As far as being competent as a technician and a teacher, I must tell you in all candor that I absolutely expect NOTHING Less from anyone who represents themselves as a 8th, 9th or 10th degree BB. That is not even worthy of comment for me. Where I am challenging leadership in the Hapkido arts is to use their supposed authority to bring individuals together under some aegis OTHER THAN their own particular brandname, while maintaining some level of authenticity.

I think I can state without fear of contradiction that people such as GM-s Suh, Ji, Lee and Kimm (among many others) have all done their best to make a living from the KMA. On those occasions they have sought to bring people together but only under their own marque. As a Hapkido practitioner I think I deserved better than their unique selfish take on how posterity would frame them. People contributing on this Net (and others) are no longer young, starry-eyed gueppies, easily swayed by big names and oral traditions. Speaking for myself I fully expect that big names and big talk will be supported by big evidence. Failing that I am left to wonder how such individuals are any different from the most recent crop of profit-mongers. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[American HKD]

Dear Rudy:

Perhaps I am missing something, so I share the following with some care. All the same I think there is some part of the message that is being lost here and I, for my part, believe it needs to be said. Please bear with me.

In the kwan to which I belong, as well as the organization (WHF) that proceeds from it the highest TECHNICAL rank (rank for which one tests and reflects ones' technical ability and accumin) is 7th dan. 8th, 9th and 10th dan all reflect organizational, managerial or supervisory positions. These positions may (or may not) have been preceeded by a range of technical ranks. Thats not for me to say as it is GM Myung, not I, who assigns these ranks. The reason that I raise any of this is that I believe that at least in the kwan to which I belong I have a reasonable expectation of leadership from the people to whom GM Myung assigns ranks 8 through 10. Now, whether it is fair or not, I believe that I am also justified in expecting some level of leadership from ANYONE who claims to have an 8th, 9th or 10th degree BB, and for me this goes beyong the matter of advertising ranks, bestowing credentials or assigning standing.

As far as being competent as a technician and a teacher, I must tell you in all candor that I absolutely expect NOTHING Less from anyone who represents themselves as a 8th, 9th or 10th degree BB. That is not even worthy of comment for me. Where I am challenging leadership in the Hapkido arts is to use their supposed authority to bring individuals together under some aegis OTHER THAN their own particular brandname, while maintaining some level of authenticity.

I think I can state without fear of contradiction that people such as GM-s Suh, Ji, Lee and Kimm (among many others) have all done their best to make a living from the KMA. On those occasions they have sought to bring people together but only under their own marque. As a Hapkido practitioner I think I deserved better than their unique selfish take on how posterity would frame them. People contributing on this Net (and others) are no longer young, starry-eyed gueppies, easily swayed by big names and oral traditions. Speaking for myself I fully expect that big names and big talk will be supported by big evidence. Failing that I am left to wonder how such individuals are any different from the most recent crop of profit-mongers. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Bruce,

You have a few good points, but for example it's alledged Ji Han Jae only was a 3rd dan from Choi Yong Sool but he promoted most of the highest HKD Masters in the world including H.S. Myung, He Young Kimm, and many others I won't name for the list is too long.

My point is that a 3rd dan is promoting people to 5,6,7,8, and 9th dans after claiming to found his own system Hapkido based on a 3rd Dan from someone else.

To date no one will agrue Masters Ji's skill and knowledge it's always been beyond question.

So skill and respect out weighs all the paper trails.

 

[Disco]

I know this is going to p**s off some people, but the door has been pushed open. From my viewpoint, I tend to see a big double standard here. If an American 3rd Dan up and started his own organization, he would be roasted, toasted and unboasted until somebody closed the thread. It would also be highly doubtful that his technical expertise would be part of the discussion. It's no secret that I don't have any warm and fuzzy's for the way Korean's in general, conduct business within the martial arts world they control. I've seen way to much stuff happen to ever be objective again. This thread was started with a valid question, that I'm sure even those who are somewhat defensive of the subject in general, have asked of other's sometime within their martial arts careers. Point of contention here; we are only following the paths that have been formulated for us. All these ranks and titles were invented and presented to us. We were told to respect and honor the ways of obtaining these ranks, for it was supposed to be obtained thru hard work, dedication and so on and so forth. We are expected to adhear to these directives, but those that implemented them are/were excused from this path?

I have all the respect in the world for guys like Whalen, Mike T., Holcomb, Booth, West and Rudy. Why, because they followed the dictated path from white belt to whatever Dan ranking they now hold. What's even more important, is that they have the documentation that accompanies that path. There's no voids between the ranks. If they can and were expected to do it that way, then I don't see why those that were before them shouldn't have done it the same way. As I said, they introduced this protocal in the first place.

Not to sound contradictory, but I'm sure Mr. Seo has documentation listing his education and growth in the arts. Perhaps I don't understand the interface between Hapkido and Kuk Sool Won, but all this information was extracted from a public access bio page and it presented something questionable to those of us that are not that educated in the diplomatic aspects of Korean martial arts.

 

[Master Todd Miller]

GM Ji's sill has always been beyond question.

I would argue that point in that GM Ji's skill is not the highest level Hapkido! GM Kim was a 5th dan under Ji and could not move a high school student from DJN Choi's dojang! It seems that GM Ji's technique is very good but not complete according to Choi, Yong Sul. This is not to say Ji's technique is not good but just not complete. He did add a number of kicks but kicks has never been the trademark of real hapkido.

www.millersmudo.com

 

[greendragon]

One way to find out about GM Ji's technique...go train with him? It's that simple. Then you will know for yourself and won't have to gossip all the time like a bunch of little hens running around the barnyard....
Michael Tomlinson

 

[Master Todd Miller]

One way to find out about GM Ji's technique...go train with him? It's that simple.

Mike,

I am personally not all that interested in Sin Moo. I practice and teach Hapkido as taught by Choi, Yong Sul and GM Lim and from ALL that I have herd from they are very different due the focus points. This is NOT saying anything bad about GM Ji's technique or abilities!

There are many branches on the Hapkido tree and Ji is definatly one of those brances. My point is that Doju Nim Choi is the root or trunk of the tree and deserves that respect!

As for training ALL are welcome to my dojang Saturday November 20th for our Hapkido/ Guhapdo Freindship workout. It does not matter what branch of Hapkido you are from! It is all about the training. artyon:

Take care

www.millersmudo.com

 

[American HKD]

I know this is going to p**s off some people, but the door has been pushed open. From my viewpoint, I tend to see a big double standard here. If an American 3rd Dan up and started his own organization, he would be roasted, toasted and unboasted until somebody closed the thread. It would also be highly doubtful that his technical expertise would be part of the discussion. It's no secret that I don't have any warm and fuzzy's for the way Korean's in general, conduct business within the martial arts world they control. I've seen way to much stuff happen to ever be objective again. This thread was started with a valid question, that I'm sure even those who are somewhat defensive of the subject in general, have asked of other's sometime within their martial arts careers. Point of contention here; we are only following the paths that have been formulated for us. All these ranks and titles were invented and presented to us. We were told to respect and honor the ways of obtaining these ranks, for it was supposed to be obtained thru hard work, dedication and so on and so forth. We are expected to adhear to these directives, but those that implemented them are/were excused from this path?

I have all the respect in the world for guys like Whalen, Mike T., Holcomb, Booth, West and Rudy. Why, because they followed the dictated path from white belt to whatever Dan ranking they now hold. What's even more important, is that they have the documentation that accompanies that path. There's no voids between the ranks. If they can and were expected to do it that way, then I don't see why those that were before them shouldn't have done it the same way. As I said, they introduced this protocal in the first place.

Not to sound contradictory, but I'm sure Mr. Seo has documentation listing his education and growth in the arts. Perhaps I don't understand the interface between Hapkido and Kuk Sool Won, but all this information was extracted from a public access bio page and it presented something questionable to those of us that are not that educated in the diplomatic aspects of Korean martial arts.

Bruce,

All the founders of Modern Korean Arts today and for that matter many electic system of today were in fact low ranking MA from elsewhere and never went up the ladder as you say guys like Whalen, Mike T., Holcomb, Booth, West and Rudy did.

So when I metioned to you to leave that other guy alone (Royal hapkido something) you can now see why I have that position.

Bruce Lee was not any high ranking student of Yip Man, nor was Joo bang Lee, General Choi, Ji Han Jae, Ed Parker, Henry Okasaki (Danzan Ryu 3rd Dan Kodokan Judo). Brazilian Jujutsu ( what Dan was he when he founded the BBJ? now he's a 9th dan )

Look in any issue of Black Belt Mag and see how many self made new systems there are.

How many will stick in 20 years?

 

[greendragon]

Todd writes:
I am personally not all that interested in Sin Moo. I practice and teach Hapkido as taught by Choi, Yong Sul and GM Lim and from ALL that I have herd from they are very different due the focus points.::

And therein lies your problem.. you are more interested in stating what you have "heard" instead of going and seeing for yourself... I see you practice what Choi teaches..yada yada yada... did they also teach you to get on the internet and talk trash about Ji and other Korean GM's without ever meeting him? Or is that your own unique invention? Too much gossip and patting yourself on the back because somehow you think you are "special" in some way because you do some "special" Hapkido,, maybe all this talk is just a defense mechanism that your mind has created to bolster yourself up to feel more adequate. Psychology of Personality 101...Wake up and quit gossiping over and over...
Michael Tomlinson

 

[glad2bhere]

First, I think we need a moratorium on the use of that "go train with him" arguement". In the end it would still be subjective. In my own case I DID go train with Ji. I wasn't impressed. The result was that people THEN said, "oh, well you didn't train with him enough. If you trained with him more, well, THEN you would see his greatness." In the case of Suh, I understand that though he was in Chicago a couple of years back, essentially he did a demo of techniques and then the actually teaching itself was conducted by cadre that he brought with him. I don't think this would actually qualify as having "trained with" him as I would define it.

Secondly, I get really tired of folks constantly coming on these Nets and repeatedly talking about how what THEY do is different. Maybe someone would like to tell me what peoples' vested interest is in making sure that what they do is seem as clearly delineated from everyone else. Its not like what Ji does is so all-fired different from Seo or Lee or Kimm. When I was talking about hapkiyusool I worked very hard to show how I viewed it progressing from and relating to the overall Hapkido community. I would bet money that others would much rather see hapkiyusool as some kind of art completely and distinctly different from Hapkido. Whats the payoff in this? What is it that drives people to keep dividing the Hapkido community into disparate groups. Is that what you want--- a community driven by turf wars? Has this done anything for us in the past 50 years?!?

Lastly, I, too, am hearing mixed messages. On one hand you want the structure of the rank system as it interfaces with a corporate approach to MA organization. Everyone wants tight accountability and regulation----- as long as it applies to OTHER people and THEIR organization. I don't hear anyone calling their OWN rank or standing into question or volunteering to submit to another persons' structure. I don't hear anyone reviewing their own rank and volunteering to give up some standing because it does not meet the criteria of another organization. A guy could be forgiven for thinking that folks are just talking to hear themselves talk, yes? FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Stuart:

".......Bruce Lee was not any high ranking student of Yip Man, nor was Joo bang Lee, General Choi, Ji Han Jae, Ed Parker, Henry Okasaki (Danzan Ryu 3rd Dan Kodokan Judo). Brazilian Jujutsu ( what Dan was he when he founded the BBJ? now he's a 9th dan )

Look in any issue of Black Belt Mag and see how many self made new systems there are......."

I honestly believe that you are mixing apples and oranges here and I have witness you using this approach on a number of occasions. It does not fit the circumstances that you are talking about. Please advise me which way you want things.

Do you want to be bound by a ranking system? Thats OK with me. It is NOT a Korean tradition but if thats what you want I can understand it. Just know that it will need to "start" somewhere. But even more so there will be criteria, responsibilities, standards and so forth for each rank. Thats the point of HAVING a ranking system. Please see Kano's writing to explain this in more detail.

Do you want to be free of a ranking system? Thats OK with me. This closer to Korean tradition and I tend to support this in keeping with the kwan approach. In the sword class I attend we wear NO rank. A persons' standing is disclosed by his skill. Without the rank, however, you lose bragging rights, and the clear distinction most Americans hunger-for in knowing where they stand compared to the person next to them. Don't want rank? Fine. Take YOUR belt off and burn YOUR certificates. Actions speak louder than words. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[American HKD]

Dear Stuart:

".......Bruce Lee was not any high ranking student of Yip Man, nor was Joo bang Lee, General Choi, Ji Han Jae, Ed Parker, Henry Okasaki (Danzan Ryu 3rd Dan Kodokan Judo). Brazilian Jujutsu ( what Dan was he when he founded the BBJ? now he's a 9th dan )

Look in any issue of Black Belt Mag and see how many self made new systems there are......."

I honestly believe that you are mixing apples and oranges here and I have witness you using this approach on a number of occasions. It does not fit the circumstances that you are talking about. Please advise me which way you want things.

Do you want to be bound by a ranking system? Thats OK with me. It is NOT a Korean tradition but if thats what you want I can understand it. Just know that it will need to "start" somewhere. But even more so there will be criteria, responsibilities, standards and so forth for each rank. Thats the point of HAVING a ranking system. Please see Kano's writing to explain this in more detail.

Do you want to be free of a ranking system? Thats OK with me. This closer to Korean tradition and I tend to support this in keeping with the kwan approach. In the sword class I attend we wear NO rank. A persons' standing is disclosed by his skill. Without the rank, however, you lose bragging rights, and the clear distinction most Americans hunger-for in knowing where they stand compared to the person next to them. Don't want rank? Fine. Take YOUR belt off and burn YOUR certificates. Actions speak louder than words. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

I don't have an issue with the ranking system that's not even what I was talking about.

I was commenting on your comment that said

.........I know this is going to p**s off some people, but the door has been pushed open. From my viewpoint, I tend to see a big double standard here. If an American 3rd Dan up and started his own organization, he would be roasted, toasted and unboasted until somebody closed the thread. It would also be highly doubtful that his technical expertise would be part of the discussion. It's no secret that I don't have any warm and fuzzy's for the way Korean's in general, conduct business within the martial arts world they control. I've seen way to much stuff happen to ever be objective again. This thread was started with a valid question, that I'm sure even those who are somewhat defensive of the subject in general, have asked of other's sometime within their martial arts careers. Point of contention here; we are only following the paths that have been formulated for us. All these ranks and titles were invented and presented to us. We were told to respect and honor the ways of obtaining these ranks, for it was supposed to be obtained thru hard work, dedication and so on and so forth. We are expected to adhear to these directives, but those that implemented them are/were excused from this path?

I have all the respect in the world for guys like Whalen, Mike T., Holcomb, Booth, West and Rudy. Why, because they followed the dictated path from white belt to whatever Dan ranking they now hold. What's even more important, is that they have the documentation that accompanies that path. There's no voids between the ranks. If they can and were expected to do it that way, then I don't see why those that were before them shouldn't have done it the same way. As I said, they introduced this protocal in the first place.

Not to sound contradictory, but I'm sure Mr. Seo has documentation listing his education and growth in the arts. Perhaps I don't understand the interface between Hapkido and Kuk Sool Won, but all this information was extracted from a public access bio page and it presented something questionable to those of us that are not that educated in the diplomatic aspects of Korean martial arts..........