When the pursuit of "not being a sport" goes wrong...

[Tony Dismukes]

From a street self-defense training standpoint, it's good to practice defenses on the ground against

• kicks from a standing opponent
• punches from a standing opponent
• ground-n-pound from an opponent who is on the ground on top of you
• grappling from an opponent who is on top of you
• weapons attacks from an opponent who is over you (either standing or not)
  

(That last is by far the hardest situation to deal with.)

Yesterday afternoon a friend brought some training knives to our workout, so we spent a couple of hours sparring and training grappling scenarios (standing and on the ground) where one combatant had a knife and the other was unarmed. Even though it was a much more dangerous situation than working against an unarmed opponent the normal concepts still applied. It just added a new variable that had to be kept track of. Some techniques had to be modified, but the principles did not change.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I, for one, was not aware ALL of Kung Fu competed in UFC 1-4.

Jason Delucia did something called Five Animal Kung Fu. Not sure what Five Animal Kung Fu is. I went back to watch his fights and to be honest I've seen lesser fighters use more kung fu. Than what he showed.

 

[FriedRice]

Jason Delucia did something called Five Animal Kung Fu. Not sure what Five Animal Kung Fu is. I went back to watch his fights and to be honest I've seen lesser fighters use more kung fu. Than what he showed.

Well where were you or other Kung-Fu masters to whoop on Gracie and the rest of UFC 1-4? $60,000 for a night's fight, grand prize....was probably like 60-100 times more than what most Kung-Fu guy makes in a local fight unless it was K-1 or something. And this was in a big place vs. a hotel conference room too.

And as I recall, he quickly got taken down and grappled so I'm not sure how much Kung-Fu anyone can show you while they're in pretzel position.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Well where were you or other Kung-Fu masters to whoop on Gracie and the rest of UFC 1-4? $60,000 for a night's fight, grand prize....was probably like 60-100 times more than what most Kung-Fu guy makes in a local fight unless it was K-1 or something. And this was in a big place vs. a hotel conference room too..

You do realize that Royce Gracie could only fight a limited number of opponents in UFC 1-4 right? The fight card was full.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Double post:

 

[JowGaWolf]

Well where were you or other Kung-Fu masters to whoop on Gracie and the rest of UFC 1-4? $60,000 for a night's fight, grand prize....was probably like 60-100 times more than what most Kung-Fu guy makes in a local fight unless it was K-1 or something. And this was in a big place vs. a hotel conference room too.

And as I recall, he quickly got taken down and grappled so I'm not sure how much Kung-Fu anyone can show you while they're in pretzel position.

1st. I wasn't taking kung fu at that time.
2nd. Never claimed to be Kung Master
3rd. Never claimed to be professional fighter
4th. My professional interests and desires involve IT, webpages, and having my own company. None of which requires me to get hit in the face for $60,000

 

[Hanzou]

You do realize that Royce Gracie could only fight a limited number of opponents in UFC 1-4 right? The fight card was full.

The fact remains that the lack of Kung Fu in MMA in general (and its overall performance when it does show up) is quite telling.

 

[Buka]

Yeah, maybe. But maybe not. We can kind of say the same thing about boxers, they've been doing real well since UFC 1.

Interesting side note...Art Jimmerson (boxer UFC1) is the only fighter in UFC history to tap out from a submission, when no submission was actually applied or attempted.

 

[drop bear]

Yeah, maybe. But maybe not. We can kind of say the same thing about boxers, they've been doing real well since UFC 1.

Interesting side note...Art Jimmerson (boxer UFC1) is the only fighter in UFC history to tap out from a submission, when no submission was actually applied or attempted.

Yeah that was kind of weird

 

[JowGaWolf]

Kung fu techniques used in MMA: Sweep and big wheel punches

techiques: Thrust punch, hook, spinning side kick, flying knee, are common in kung fu. The kick actually broke his jaw

Studied filipino martial arts and Hung gar

Then you have Cung Le

 

[RTKDCMB]

Yeah that was kind of weird

And he was wearing one boxing glove.

 

[RTKDCMB]

The fact remains that the lack of Kung Fu in MMA in general (and its overall performance when it does show up) is quite telling.

Boxers didn't do too well in the first few UFC's either, perhaps that is telling as well?

 

[Paul_D]

I am at a loss as to understand why a Ninjutsu Newaza video has been posted in the self defence section of the forum. It is not represented as self defence, makes no claims to be self defence, and is clearly not a self defence.

Neither the title of the video claim it is self defence, the description on youtube doesn't claim it's self defence, and he DVD it is taken from is called "What is martial arts", which again has nothing to do with self defence.

So in the spirit of the original post, here is a table tennis video to prove why table tennis is no good for self defence.

None of what was shown in this video is effective. Self defense, or otherwise, what is shown wouldn't be much help to you if someone is on top of you trying to bash your head in.

 

[JowGaWolf]

And he was wearing one boxing glove.

Yes which is the most mind blowing thing ever, still to this day. Even when I first saw the match, I was puzzled as to why would he want a boxing glove on which takes away his ability to grab. It turns out that he originally wanted to wear 2 gloves, but was afraid that the ref wouldn't be able to see him tap out. So the hand that he was going to use to tap out is the one that didn't have the glove on. He was highly worried that his arm was going to be broken. Once Art was on the ground he probably knew right away that the gloved hand was more of a problem than of a benefit and was the reason why he tapped out without a submission.

When I look at the fight now it looks as if Gracie knew he was at a great disadvantage too as it seems that he didn't try to take it to him like other opponents. I will give art credit for holding Gracie tight. the way that he did. That and the quick tap saved him from any ground and pound options. But based on how Gracie was moving my guess is that Gracie understood that Art was really out of his area for fighting and knew he wouldn't have to do much to win. I'm basing this on the intensity that he showed appeared to be very reserved in comparison to the later matches.

Art got what he wanted so he came out a winner. All he wanted was $15,000 and the guy that brought him in said he would pay him that amount for fighting in the UFC. He got his $15,000 and walked away healthy and is now a UFC icon.

 

[FriedRice]

1st. I wasn't taking kung fu at that time.
2nd. Never claimed to be Kung Master
3rd. Never claimed to be professional fighter
4th. My professional interests and desires involve IT, webpages, and having my own company. None of which requires me to get hit in the face for $60,000

I just thought it was very pompous of you to berate Jason Delucia like that. Especially when he was and still is, an accomplished Kung-Fu guy....in a sense that, it usually just means that he's good as hell at doing flowery forms and pretty movements in the air for medals at KF tournament...just like any other garden variety, accomplished Kung-Fu guys.

But the main exception here was that, Jason DeLucia backed up his flowery forms and actually had the balls to fight, NO RULES, like this. Your main defamation of him was that he didn't use enough Kung-Fu...which completely questions your ability and experience in fighting vs. trained fighters. Because it's been proven for 20+ years now, that all of that flowery forms, trained and memorized at the school, turns into what looks like, standard Kickboxing, when it's time to fight. Except maybe for this guy vs. Frankie:

 

[Hanzou]

Boxers didn't do too well in the first few UFC's either, perhaps that is telling as well?

Boxers do well now though once they learn kicking and grappling. Boxing also tends to be the core of MMA hand striking.

Kung Fu already has those elements.

 

[Hanzou]

I am at a loss as to understand why a Ninjutsu Newaza video has been posted in the self defence section of the forum. It is not represented as self defence, makes no claims to be self defence, and is clearly not a self defence.

Actually almost every Bujinkan dojo I've read about makes it a point to state that their techniques are for self defense and not sport. I seriously doubt Hatsumi was demonstrating these techniques just for show. He was showing how Ninjas handle fighting off the ground, and he wanted to show how it was different than sport styles.

 

[Paul_D]

Actually almost every Bujinkan dojo I've read about makes it a point to state that their techniques are for self defense and not sport. I seriously doubt Hatsumi was demonstrating these techniques just for show. He was showing how Ninjas handle fighting off the ground, and he wanted to show how it was different than sport styles.

I will bow to your superior knowledge on that one, as I have no knowledge of Bujinkan.

Well (almost) every martial arts school does that too, but very few actually teach self defence. but as we know they just put that on the website to get more people through the door.

But I don't see any attempt in the video or the description to represent it as SD, so for me it needs to be critiqued for a MA stand point rather than a SD one.

Now, if it had SD in the title, that would be different ;-)

 

[Buka]

Art Jimmerson got 17,000 guaranteed and a thousand for competing in the first round. (nice work if you can get it.)
The afternoon of the fight he told the promoter, Art Davie, that he needed boxing shoes and gloves, as he had forgotten to bring his. (bizarre) So they had to rush out and get him some boxing gloves. They couldn't find boxing shoes so they got him sneakers.

All I could think when I saw that match was "that poor man."

Jason DeLucia rocks.

 

[Hanzou]

I will bow to your superior knowledge on that one, as I have no knowledge of Bujinkan.

Well (almost) every martial arts school does that too, but very few actually teach self defence. but as we know they just put that on the website to get more people through the door.

But I don't see any attempt in the video or the description to represent it as SD, so for me it needs to be critiqued for a MA stand point rather than a SD one.

Now, if it had SD in the title, that would be different ;-)

Again, what other purpose would there be? There's no sport in the Bujinkan, so while it doesn't explicitly say "self defense", that is what is implied. If a "Ninja" ends up on the ground, this is what s/he is supposed to do in order to get an attacker off of them. There's even a (hilarious) multiple attacker variation later in the clip.

That's kind of the point of this thread; MAs who try to desperately to run away from the sport angle that they end up sacrificing the effectiveness of their style. Instead of simply learning ground fighting from a reputable source, they concoct their own version full of "deadly" moves that cannot be used in the "ring".

That point was demonstrated perfectly in the Ninjutsu video, which is why it was used.