When the pursuit of "not being a sport" goes wrong...

[Hanzou]

The point is that just because someone takes a defensive position on their back doesn't mean that the next thing that will happen is a ground and pound. If general traditional martial arts perspective exist it would probably be that being on the ground is a bad thing so do everything you can to not end up on the ground or to get up from the ground.

The more pressing question is what does the traditional martial artist do if THEY are the ones on the ground getting pounded in the face.

Typically the response is "we just don't end up on the ground", and that is complete and utter nonsense.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

just some more basic kicks.

The point is that just because someone takes a defensive position on their back doesn't mean that the next thing that will happen is a ground and pound. If general traditional martial arts perspective exist it would probably be that being on the ground is a bad thing so do everything you can to not end up on the ground or to get up from the ground.

From a street self-defense training standpoint, it's good to practice defenses on the ground against

• kicks from a standing opponent
• punches from a standing opponent
• ground-n-pound from an opponent who is on the ground on top of you
• grappling from an opponent who is on top of you
• weapons attacks from an opponent who is over you (either standing or not)

(That last is by far the hardest situation to deal with.)

Getting to the feet safely and efficiently is a vital skill. However if you don't first understand how to protect yourself while you are down, you have an excellent chance of taking major damage while you are trying to get up.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The more pressing question is what does the traditional martial artist do if THEY are the ones on the ground getting pounded in the face.

Typically the response is "we just don't end up on the ground", and that is complete and utter nonsense.

What the traditional martial artist does depends on the fighting system in question. Not everyone one has the same approach or even uses the same techniques. So you'll have to go system by system to see what they do if anything. The reason I say if anything, because if the ground fighting techniques aren't taught then there aren't going to be many answers to the ground and pound. This doesn't mean that there aren't any ground fighting techniques to deal with the ground and pound, it could just mean that it's not taught. In some cases it will be that there is no answer for the fighting system. But you'll have to research beyond youtube to really know what's techniques are available.

There's an assumption is that it's easy to take people to the ground and do ground and pound, but that's usually against people who don't train against people who are trying to put them on the ground. From a self-defense point of view, a person is going to have the benefit of being able to use the environment to play a part of their defense, but most people don't think that way because they only see self-defense as fighting. Depending on who is around, an attempt to ground and pound could put a person in this situation.

While ground and pound rules in the ring, there's no guarantee that it will be equally as effective in a self defense situation.

If I feel my footing is better I may decide to fight near a curb where I can step up or down. If there are steps near by then I may decide to see how well that person can fight on the steps. Even the incline of a hill may help me in preventing someone from taking me down to pound my face in.

My educated guess is that not many BJJ practitioners practice fighting on the side of a hill. The only thing I know is that I do.

 

[Hanzou]

What the traditional martial artist does depends on the fighting system in question. Not everyone one has the same approach or even uses the same techniques. So you'll have to go system by system to see what they do if anything. The reason I say if anything, because if the ground fighting techniques aren't taught then there aren't going to be many answers to the ground and pound. This doesn't mean that there aren't any ground fighting techniques to deal with the ground and pound, it could just mean that it's not taught. In some cases it will be that there is no answer for the fighting system. But you'll have to research beyond youtube to really know what's techniques are available.

There's an assumption is that it's easy to take people to the ground and do ground and pound, but that's usually against people who don't train against people who are trying to put them on the ground. From a self-defense point of view, a person is going to have the benefit of being able to use the environment to play a part of their defense, but most people don't think that way because they only see self-defense as fighting.

I never said that takedowns are easy, I'm saying that the belief that you'll never get taken down is nonsense. If wrestlers and Judoka can get taken down by random jerks, ANYONE can.

Depending on who is around, an attempt to ground and pound could put a person in this situation.

While ground and pound rules in the ring, there's no guarantee that it will be equally as effective in a self defense situation.

Again, the person doing the ground and pound isn't the person I'm talking about. I'm talking about the person on the ground getting their face turned into hamburger.

You can't always depend on your mom to save you.

If I feel my footing is better I may decide to fight near a curb where I can step up or down. If there are steps near by then I may decide to see how well that person can fight on the steps. Even the incline of a hill may help me in preventing someone from taking me down to pound my face in.

So we're back to the notion that you can't get taken down. Gotcha.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

There is an emphasis on getting up off the ground.

If your opponent

- drags you down, his hands are still on you, it may be difficult to get back up fast.
- throws you down, his hands are not on you, it may be possible to get back up fast.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I never said that takedowns are easy, I'm saying that the belief that you'll never get taken down is nonsense. If wrestlers and Judoka can get taken down by random jerks, ANYONE can.





Again, the person doing the ground and pound isn't the person I'm talking about. I'm talking about the person on the ground getting their face turned into hamburger.

You can't always depend on your mom to save you.



So we're back to the notion that you can't get taken down. Gotcha.

Nope. That's just you misreading things again to fit your bias. I've never said that I could never get taken down. As a martial artist I never assume that something can't happen to me.

 

[Hanzou]

Nope. That's just you misreading things again to fit your bias. I've never said that I could never get taken down. As a martial artist I never assume that something can't happen to me.

Okay, so what are some Jow Ga strategies for when you end up on the ground? On top, or when they're circling around for a soccer kick?

 

[seasoned]

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

Wes Yager
Martial Talk Senior Moderator.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Okay, so what are some Jow Ga strategies for when you end up on the ground? On top, or when they're circling around for a soccer kick?

On the ground before they get on top, we are taught to get up quickly if we can do that without being kicked in the head. If we can't then we stay on the ground to create some distance. We do something similar to this but ,the way that we do it in the school allows us to do more than just get up and that one kick.

If someone is on top of me trying to pound my face then I would bring them close to me. One this helps me to prevent him from kicking him in his face and it puts me into a good position to use Chin Na techniques. There are some Chin Na techniques that work both standing and on the ground. If the Chin Na technique is successful then there will be no more grounding and pounding or grabbing. If it's not successful then it's a reset to prevent my face from being bashed in and then apply a different technique.

Someone circling around for a soccer kick is no big deal mainly because he's not trying to come to the ground, which would be a bigger problem for a kung fu practitioner. If he's just circling around then there are a variety of strikes that can be done from the ground that are in my system. The main thing is that a weak root is a weak root regardless of if I'm attacking the root while standing up or attacking from the ground.

For many styles of kung fu, getting off the ground doesn't always means standing up in a general fight position, it just simply means on both feet. In Jow Ga this would qualify as "getting up."

 

[Hanzou]

On the ground before they get on top, we are taught to get up quickly if we can do that without being kicked in the head. If we can't then we stay on the ground to create some distance. We do something similar to this but ,the way that we do it in the school allows us to do more than just get up and that one kick.

If someone is on top of me trying to pound my face then I would bring them close to me. One this helps me to prevent him from kicking him in his face and it puts me into a good position to use Chin Na techniques. There are some Chin Na techniques that work both standing and on the ground. If the Chin Na technique is successful then there will be no more grounding and pounding or grabbing. If it's not successful then it's a reset to prevent my face from being bashed in and then apply a different technique.

Someone circling around for a soccer kick is no big deal mainly because he's not trying to come to the ground, which would be a bigger problem for a kung fu practitioner. If he's just circling around then there are a variety of strikes that can be done from the ground that are in my system. The main thing is that a weak root is a weak root regardless of if I'm attacking the root while standing up or attacking from the ground.

For many styles of kung fu, getting off the ground doesn't always means standing up in a general fight position, it just simply means on both feet. In Jow Ga this would qualify as "getting up."

Thanks Jow. That's all I was asking for.

 

[Buka]

On the ground before they get on top, we are taught to get up quickly if we can do that without being kicked in the head. If we can't then we stay on the ground to create some distance. We do something similar to this but ,the way that we do it in the school allows us to do more than just get up and that one kick.

If someone is on top of me trying to pound my face then I would bring them close to me. One this helps me to prevent him from kicking him in his face and it puts me into a good position to use Chin Na techniques. There are some Chin Na techniques that work both standing and on the ground. If the Chin Na technique is successful then there will be no more grounding and pounding or grabbing. If it's not successful then it's a reset to prevent my face from being bashed in and then apply a different technique.

Someone circling around for a soccer kick is no big deal mainly because he's not trying to come to the ground, which would be a bigger problem for a kung fu practitioner. If he's just circling around then there are a variety of strikes that can be done from the ground that are in my system. The main thing is that a weak root is a weak root regardless of if I'm attacking the root while standing up or attacking from the ground.

For many styles of kung fu, getting off the ground doesn't always means standing up in a general fight position, it just simply means on both feet. In Jow Ga this would qualify as "getting up."

That's pretty much how I was taught BJJ on day one. That and sprawling. I'm glad I was taught that way, it not only helped a lot, but I find the very first thing you learn in a new endeavor tends to stay with you naturally.

As for hills, I hate hills. Hills and stairs. I suck on both.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I don't know enough about Ninjutsu to pass judgement on the art as a whole.

When has that ever stopped you?

 

[Hanzou]

When has that ever stopped you?

There's a difference between being critical and saying that a system is bunk.

Now, would I recommend Ninjutsu to someone seeking to study MA? Probably not. However, I do see value in learning the art if its benefits are what you're looking for.

 

[FriedRice]

On the ground before they get on top, we are taught to get up quickly if we can do that without being kicked in the head.

If someone is on top of me trying to pound my face then I would bring them close to me. One this helps me to prevent him from kicking him in his face and it puts me into a good position to use Chin Na techniques.

IMO, you KF guys had your chance in UFC 1-4 but couldn't solve the Royce Gracie BJJ riddle. UFC 1-4 had ZERO DISQUALIFYING RULES. You could have done anything you wanted.

 

[JowGaWolf]

IMO, you KF guys had your chance in UFC 1-4 but couldn't solve the Royce Gracie BJJ riddle.

You are right and I wish more highly skilled Kung Fu practitioners would have participated. It was a missed opportunity for them to really learn more about their KF system and training.
The one thing that many martial arts schools don't do much of is spar against other fighting systems so they never have an opportunity to learn how to apply their techniques against a different style.

This is why the UFC was so successful, it wasn't boxer against boxer, it wasn't karate against karate. it was fighting system vs what ever fighting system was in the ring.

Those early fighters took that experience and used it to teach and train in their own fighting system from different approaches.

Instead of thinking. "If a guy throws a jab, then you do this." It's become more about understanding the fighting system that you have to fight against, what are the strengths and weaknesses of that system. How do I approach that system with the techniques that I know. Kung fu missed out on an excellent opportunity. The good thing is that now Kung Fu schools and other martial art school are more open with going against other systems. Hopefully 10 years from now there will be better fighters who are able to use those kung fu techniques more effectively.

I think without MMA alot of martial arts would have continued on the path of forms performances and never really learning how to fight beyond point sparring and demos

 

[FriedRice]

You are right and I wish more highly skilled Kung Fu practitioners would have participated. It was a missed opportunity for them to really learn more about their KF system and training.
The one thing that many martial arts schools don't do much of is spar against other fighting systems so they never have an opportunity to learn how to apply their techniques against a different style.

Jason DeLucia was not only a highly skilled Kung-Fu guy, but I think he also fought in those kind of mixed tournaments. He was the Kung-Fu guy who eye gouged Royce Gracie in trying to get out of a hold.....that's why you see Royce not letting go of his arm from that belly down, armbar....he started tapping furiously and the Ref had to jump in to pull him off...and the announcer said that "his elbow is popped". I thought Gracie was a dick for breaking the guy's arm....but Gracie said he was getting eye gouged and this is how they deal with it in Brazil. DeLucia fought Royce in some closed gym setting, just right before that UFC 2 event and lost also, so he knew what he was getting in to. It's on YouTube. Another CMA guy was Steve Faulkner, an accomplished Wing Chun guy. The Karateka from Japan in UFC 2, was also supposed to be another good fighter. Patrick Smith was a decent K-1 kickboxer with a TKD background. Gordeau or something, was a big name Savate fighter who bit Gracie, so another case where the Ref had to jump on Gracie to get him off of Gordeau.

There always existed Style vs. Style grudge matches, especially in Asia. The Asians really seem to get into that, especially w/national pride and their countries being next to each other. Muay Thai often gets pitted against Karate and Kung-Fu, ie. in K-1. And certainly, in Brazil's Vale Tudo....where the Gracies reigned for 50+ years. That was the Gracie's main schtick....to prove their BJJ is superior. I'm glad to see though, that more, so-called TMA techniques are coming back....even though most to all of them do exist in Muay Thai...but in general MT, it's just the vanilla Muay Thai that we see in MMA and it's getting real boring. My favorite fighter to watch is probably Anderson Silva and a close 2nd is Cung Le.

 

[Buka]

Jason DeLucia was not only a highly skilled Kung-Fu guy, but I think he also fought in those kind of mixed tournaments. He was the Kung-Fu guy who eye gouged Royce Gracie in trying to get out of a hold.....that's why you see Royce not letting go of his arm from that belly down, armbar....he started tapping furiously and the Ref had to jump in to pull him off...and the announcer said that "his elbow is popped". I thought Gracie was a dick for breaking the guy's arm....but Gracie said he was getting eye gouged and this is how they deal with it in Brazil. DeLucia fought Royce in some closed gym setting, just right before that UFC 2 event and lost also, so he knew what he was getting in to. It's on YouTube. Another CMA guy was Steve Faulkner, an accomplished Wing Chun guy. The Karateka from Japan in UFC 2, was also supposed to be another good fighter. Patrick Smith was a decent K-1 kickboxer with a TKD background. Gordeau or something, was a big name Savate fighter who bit Gracie, so another case where the Ref had to jump on Gracie to get him off of Gordeau.

There always existed Style vs. Style grudge matches, especially in Asia. The Asians really seem to get into that, especially w/national pride and their countries being next to each other. Muay Thai often gets pitted against Karate and Kung-Fu, ie. in K-1. And certainly, in Brazil's Vale Tudo....where the Gracies reigned for 50+ years. That was the Gracie's main schtick....to prove their BJJ is superior. I'm glad to see though, that more, so-called TMA techniques are coming back....even though most to all of them do exist in Muay Thai...but in general MT, it's just the vanilla Muay Thai that we see in MMA and it's getting real boring. My favorite fighter to watch is probably Anderson Silva and a close 2nd is Cung Le.

Jason DeLucia was not only a highly skilled Kung-Fu guy, but I think he also fought in those kind of mixed tournaments. He was the Kung-Fu guy who eye gouged Royce Gracie in trying to get out of a hold.....that's why you see Royce not letting go of his arm from that belly down, armbar....he started tapping furiously and the Ref had to jump in to pull him off...and the announcer said that "his elbow is popped". I thought Gracie was a dick for breaking the guy's arm....but Gracie said he was getting eye gouged and this is how they deal with it in Brazil. DeLucia fought Royce in some closed gym setting, just right before that UFC 2 event and lost also, so he knew what he was getting in to. It's on YouTube. Another CMA guy was Steve Faulkner, an accomplished Wing Chun guy. The Karateka from Japan in UFC 2, was also supposed to be another good fighter. Patrick Smith was a decent K-1 kickboxer with a TKD background. Gordeau or something, was a big name Savate fighter who bit Gracie, so another case where the Ref had to jump on Gracie to get him off of Gordeau.

There always existed Style vs. Style grudge matches, especially in Asia. The Asians really seem to get into that, especially w/national pride and their countries being next to each other. Muay Thai often gets pitted against Karate and Kung-Fu, ie. in K-1. And certainly, in Brazil's Vale Tudo....where the Gracies reigned for 50+ years. That was the Gracie's main schtick....to prove their BJJ is superior. I'm glad to see though, that more, so-called TMA techniques are coming back....even though most to all of them do exist in Muay Thai...but in general MT, it's just the vanilla Muay Thai that we see in MMA and it's getting real boring. My favorite fighter to watch is probably Anderson Silva and a close 2nd is Cung Le.

Jason DeLucia originally went to Rorian's school to get into a challenge match. He succeed in his goal and lost quickly. He immediately signed up and trained there where he was well liked. (I applaud that, good for him) In UFC1 he was an alternate, filling in vs Trent Jenkins to fill time because all the UFC matches were over so quickly. He won in under a minute, using an RNC he had learned at Rorians.

Patrick Smith was a troubled guy. Extremely talented but completely unprepared for UFC1. Poor guy drew Shamrock.
Gerard Gordeau was a great kickboxer and breezed his way through his first two fights. Versus Royce he got caught in an outside trip (the second one Royce tried) and went down on his back, Royce in top position. Gordeau knew he was done but he was one of those guys. (debt collector and leg breaker in Amsterdam) So he bit Royce in the ear then went for a headlock, which Royce slipped and rolled Gordeau onto his back. He went for an RNC, missed, headbutted (legal then) used a second RNC and finished him.

Ah, the good old days.

 

[Hanzou]

Jason DeLucia originally went to Rorian's school to get into a challenge match. He succeed in his goal and lost quickly. He immediately signed up and trained there where he was well liked. (I applaud that, good for him) In UFC1 he was an alternate, filling in vs Trent Jenkins to fill time because all the UFC matches were over so quickly. He won in under a minute, using an RNC he had learned at Rorians.

Patrick Smith was a troubled guy. Extremely talented but completely unprepared for UFC1. Poor guy drew Shamrock.
Gerard Gordeau was a great kickboxer and breezed his way through his first two fights. Versus Royce he got caught in an outside trip (the second one Royce tried) and went down on his back, Royce in top position. Gordeau knew he was done but he was one of those guys. (debt collector and leg breaker in Amsterdam) So he bit Royce in the ear then went for a headlock, which Royce slipped and rolled Gordeau onto his back. He went for an RNC, missed, headbutted (legal then) used a second RNC and finished him.

Ah, the good old days.

Along those same lines, here's an interesting article about how MMA is pressuring Kung Fu in mainland China;

A Shaolin Monk Tries Mixed Martial Arts | FIGHTLAND

 

[JowGaWolf]

Along those same lines, here's an interesting article about how MMA is pressuring Kung Fu in mainland China;

A Shaolin Monk Tries Mixed Martial Arts | FIGHTLAND

I just hope he doesn't trade in his Kung Fu.
I don't think any fighting system should trade in their style for MMA. The person should learn how to apply the existing style against MMA fighters. This is what made BJJ good. They take the experience of fighting against other fighters, bring it back to the school, and teach the existing techniques in the context of fighting against other fighting systems.
If I do Kung Fu and trade my Kung Fu techniques for MMA techniques then I haven't done anything to help me learn how to apply Kung Fu against an MMA fighter. I would be a better MMA fighter than I was before, but I won't be a better Kung Fu fighter.

The Gracies went back to the system and used the experience to make the system better. I think this is the key of making any fighting system good. That fighter has to go back to the school and have the mindset of "Hey, this is what Karate did to me, this is what MT did to me, this is what BJJJ, boxing,etc. did to me. Now which of our existing techniques will help us defend and attack a practitioner from each system."

Too often Kung Fu and other martial arts are treated as a one size fits all solution and that's never any good. Unfortunately there are many kung fu, karate, and other types of martial arts systems that don't have a reference approach to fighting. It's more of a general, if someone punches and if someone kicks. MT, Boxers,Karate, Kung Fu, BJJ all have different ways of punching and those different ways have to be factored into how a technique is applied.

 

[RTKDCMB]

IMO, you KF guys had your chance in UFC 1-4 but couldn't solve the Royce Gracie BJJ riddle. UFC 1-4 had ZERO DISQUALIFYING RULES. You could have done anything you wanted.

I, for one, was not aware ALL of Kung Fu competed in UFC 1-4.