What's wrong with his kicking skill?

[Dirty Dog]

So sparring is a sport after all.

Not necessarily. Sport is focused on winning. Sparring can be sport, but it needn't be. If it's focus is on learning, not necessarily winning.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

So sparring is a sport after all.

Call it however you choose. I don’t compete, I practice. No trophies or certificates or belts or kudos. I don’t have anything against that, my students are welcome to compete or not.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Not necessarily. Sport is focused on winning. Sparring can be sport, but it needn't be. If its focus is on learning, not necessarily winning.

That is exactly on point. I don’t care about a sparring win, I only care to practice and learn. It’s not sport to me, but again, nothing wrong with sport or sparring or competition.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Not necessarily. Sport is focused on winning. Sparring can be sport, but it needn't be. If it's focus is on learning, not necessarily winning.

In sparring, if you intentionally to let your opponent's kick/punch to land on your body, that's called "partner drill".

In sparring, you try to land your kick/punch on your opponent's body. You also try not to let your opponent's kick/punch to land on you. You have a goal, and you want to achieve your goal. When you try to achieve your goal, and your opponent also tries to achieve his goal, does that fit the definition of "competition"?

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

In sparring, if you intentionally to let your opponent's kick/punch to land on your body, that's called "partner drill".

In sparring, you try to land your kick/punch on your opponent's body. You also try not to let your opponent's kick/punch to land on you. You have a goal, and you want to achieve your goal. When you try to achieve your goal, and your opponent also tries to achieve his goal, does that fit the definition of "competition"?

No. If I am competing I will try to win using the most expedient means I have available. If I am sparring, I will try to learn something new or work on something specific but in both cases I will resist my partners attempts. In no case do I let someone land punches and kicks on me. Partner drill means we are helping each other to learn a technique correctly so we don’t learn a sloppy version and we don’t injure one another. I feel like you know exactly what I mean here so I won’t belabor the point. Again, nomenclature is not important since I just defined it for you, but you may call a snake a noodle for all I care.

 

[Fungus]

When you try to achieve your goal, and your opponent also tries to achieve his goal, does that fit the definition of "competition"?

How about this psychological reflection?

In sports the goal is to win and get and "external reward/confirmation"- a medal and glory; which you often want to show off and confirmation from others.

In sparring the goal is to learn and get an "internal reward/confirmation" - deeper insights/skills and confidence; this is confirming yourself from the inside.

An interesting research question would be to see if the bias towards one or the other correlate to personality traits, but I think that is likely a complex topic. I myself am more on the introvert side, I think knowing what I know and can myself, is much more important than what other people think of me. I always care more about learning deep and well, than earning grades. I know many do the opposite, even in academia. Those people are very different.

 

[isshinryuronin]

When you try to achieve your goal, and your opponent also tries to achieve his goal, does that fit the definition of "competition"?

If my opponent's goal is to kill me and my goal is to stay alive, I'd say this is a bit beyond competition.

I'd define "competition" as trying to win as determined by an accepted rule set.

Sport is much like competition, except people watch it. Sometimes the rule set takes into consideration the attraction of spectators.

I agree with Dirty Dog on his main point. To sum up this topic: In dojo sparring, if the main goal is to learn or gain skill, it is practicing. If the sparring is a test of this skill/learning and there is a defined winner, it is competition. If people are encouraged to watch, it becomes sport.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In dojo sparring, if the main goal is to learn or gain skill, it is practicing. If the sparring is a test of this skill/learning and there is a defined winner, it is competition.

I think there is a difference between sparring and wrestling.

- In sparring, you may land punches/kicks on me, and I may land punches/kicks on you, but since it's learning, the sparring won't stop and continue.
- In wrestling, you take me down. That round is over. I stand back up and start another round.

If you and I wrestle 5 rounds daily and the score is always you win all 5 rounds. After a year, what kind of conclusions will we draw. Your wrestling skill is better than me. Even you and I have no intention to compete, but the score will not lie.

I may tell myself that I try to learn in that whole year. But I have lost 365 x 5 = 1825 rounds in that whole year and that's a fact.

 

[Fungus]

If you and I wrestle 5 rounds daily and the score is always you win all 5 rounds. After a year, what kind of conclusions will we draw.

But in the perspective of learning who learned and developed the most? The person winning every round or the one loosing?

In our sparring our instructors always say that we should not dominate one another even if we can, because the noone improves optimally, if the game is unfair you adapt to give each other at least a chance to try out a technique for example.

 

[Buka]

In the wrestling I’m used to, the real work doesn’t come until you’re ON the ground.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

But in the perspective of learning who learned and developed the most? The person winning every round or the one loosing?

If you have used hip throw to throw me 1000 times, and I have never used hip throw to throw you even once, of course you have learned and developed better hip throw skill than I have.

Through that 1000 rounds, my learning and developing is "My hip throw won't work on you, and I have 0 defense against your hip throw". What's the value of that kind of experience for me?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In the wrestling I’m used to, the real work doesn’t come until you’re ON the ground.

I may just talk about Chinese wrestling here.

 

[Buka]

Just wondering, when people say they are not interest in sport, how do they spar?

Which people are we talking about?

 

[windwalker099]

I'm talking about Chinese wrestling here.

In your rule set, is there a requirement to remain within the circle, or is the circle not part of the match?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In your rule set, is there a requirement to remain within the circle, or is the circle not part of the match?

For inside school testing, the circle is not important. For regular tournament, stay in the defined space is required.

 

[Fungus]

If you have used hip throw to throw me 1000 times, and I have never used hip throw to throw you even once, of course you have learned and developed better hip throw skill than I have.

Yes.

Through that 1000 rounds, my learning and developing is "My hip throw won't work on you, and I have 0 defense against your hip throw". What's the value of that kind of experience for me?

It is valuable feedback that tells me: I need to go home, and figure out a new strategy for defending your hip throw, and figure out an attack that may work on you, wether it means improving my throws, or realizing that throw isn't an answer, it is perhaps an low kick. That is why we spar. It is how I do it. Almost after every sparring session, I go home thinking about what I need to improve the next time. Improving sometimes involves simply practicing a technique, other times the insight is that I use the wrong techqniue at the wrong time. Coming into the sparring session I also have something in mind that I want to "try out" today. A sparring session where I only learn that person A is better than person B is not so useful.

But if it takes 1000 rounds to formulate this question, it is slow learning.

My most recent very personal "lesson" is that in close combat, the best defense is more attack, but what prevented me from attacking more is that during pressure, the chance of a punch flying into the face of the opponent is high, so I kept it won. So I started practicing power punching combinations during my last heavy bag session, and make them hard and fast, with precision. I can't wait to put the ideas to test during next fighting class.

 

[Buka]

If my opponent's goal is to kill me and my goal is to stay alive, I'd say this is a bit beyond competition.

I'd define "competition" as trying to win as determined by an accepted rule set.

Sport is much like competition, except people watch it. Sometimes the rule set takes into consideration the attraction of spectators.

I agree with Dirty Dog on his main point. To sum up this topic: In dojo sparring, if the main goal is to learn or gain skill, it is practicing. If the sparring is a test of this skill/learning and there is a defined winner, it is competition. If people are encouraged to watch, it becomes sport.

Unless you are encouraged to watch as a learning tool. I’d tell lower belt students to watch some of the more experienced fighters in the gym and watch for how they set up a particular strike, especially if the lower rank also threw that particular strike.

Or encourage them to watch a particular fighter’s use of footwork, or even point out any tells the upper belt might have.

During nights of heavy sparring, we’d take a break with some of the lower belts and watch black belts spar, pointing out things to them. It was a great tool, one they enjoyed, too.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It is valuable feedback that tells me: I need to go home, and figure out a new strategy for defending your hip throw,

May be because my "ability" is weak, and I need to develop more "ability".

In my last tournament, I moved 210 lb heavy rock from point A to point B daily for 3 months. I just wanted to be sure that I would be the strongest person in that tournament (I was heavy weight, and I competed super-heavy weight division that year).

 

[windwalker099]

update

Monk Yilong VS Kido Yasuhiro, hit by a backhand punch, Yilong was knocked out again by a high kick.

https://yokkao.com/pages/yi-long

Liu Xingjun, or better known as Yi Long or One Dragon is a Kung Fu fighter out of the Shandong Province in China. He is often touted as a Shaolin Monk. Shaolin Kung Fu is the largest school or style of Kung Fu in China with many styles in southern and northern China using the name of Shaolin.

He began training at 14 years old. His father imparted stories of Chinese martial arts and he decided he wanted to become a fighter. He is a large proponent of traditional Martial Arts. He has a record of 43 fights with 36 wins, 7 losses and 1 draw.

Must be one of the 7 losses...

A unique style; with 'iron body and leg' skills, blocking, evading, or slipping are likely not practiced as much.
as he might if he did not have the skills....