What was Wing Chun designed for?

[Knapf]

Are you unable to move outside of what is specifically taught? Seriously, you can't step or walk or run or skip or jump or roll or do a goddam cartwheel if necessary, if it isn't specifically taught in your wing chun? You are unable to do that? How to you walk to the bathroom? How do you run after a bus? How do you jump over a puddle? How do you bend over to pick up a sack of groceries, or kneel down to tie your shoe?
Sometimes ya gotta just move, if that is what you need to do.

Then we are not in disagreement then. Biu Ma in WC is too slow so it helps alot to adopt a Choy Lee Fat or Hung Ga style of advancing. I may not have stated that but that's what I would suggest.

Edit:My mistake .I overlooked your message

Methinks sometimes limitations are created artificially.

 

[drop bear]

You know you might have to break out of your stance and fight a running battle.

 

[Phobius]

Biu ma has its purposes but on long range I would say it is not your wisest move.

Just because it is what you train it does not mean it is all you can use. We train it a lot and the better positioning I can maintain against opponents the more dominant it becomes for me. This means that I often train other ways to move, sadly.

Now a boxer sacrifice leg safety for better and faster movement. This I doubt is the best way forward as they will always be better until you start kicking those knees.

What MT, boxers and many more do however is to use different tools frequently in training to get more explosive stepping.

Many in WC seem to think just walking around or standing in SLT will teach good footwork. Missing that you still need the explosiveness in your muscles.

 

[Knapf]

Biu ma has its purposes but on long range I would say it is not your wisest move.

I know. Just using it as one of the few examples.

Just because it is what you train it does not mean it is all you can use.

The other methods that WC can use are ineffective for long range fighting

This means that I often train other ways to move, sadly.

Keep it up

 

[LFJ]

Biu Ma in WC is too slow so it helps alot to adopt a Choy Lee Fat or Hung Ga style of advancing.

The other methods that WC can use are ineffective for long range fighting

If people think they can only move as in form, it sounds like they've never learned the free-fighting aspect. Only form and chi-sau. That's the problem.

I can move freely and quickly in any direction at long range, without resorting to other styles' ways of moving. Sounds like you only know short-range footwork?

 

[Knapf]

If people think they can only move as in form, it sounds like they've never learned the free-fighting aspect. Only form and chi-sau. That's the problem.

I can move freely and quickly in any direction at long range, without resorting to other styles' ways of moving. Sounds like you only know short-range footwork?

What is your way of long range advancing then?Any videos?If possible,what is it called in cantonese?

 

[LFJ]

What is your way of long range advancing then?Any videos?If possible,what is it called in cantonese?

What is it called? Just natural fluid stepping, man.
Even weight, balanced COG, and free movement in whatever direction.

Don't be confined to patterns and techniques like a programmed robot.
Mobility and angling is key to fighting effectively with VT, or anything.

 

[Knapf]

What is it called? Just natural fluid stepping, man.
Even weight, balanced COG, and free movement in whatever direction.

Nope,I still don't believe that the footwork in WC has long range "game" if you can't show some proof that it can fight long range like HG or CLF.

Don't be confined to patterns and techniques like a programmed robot.
Mobility and angling is key to fighting effectively with VT, or anything.

I'm not. In fact it is WC that is sticking to it's short range footwork and can't adapt.

 

[LFJ]

Nope,I still don't believe that the footwork in WC has long range "game" if you can't show some proof that it can fight long range like HG or CLF.

Most WC doesn't.

I'm not. In fact it is WC that is sticking to it's short range footwork and can't adapt.

I agree, most WC is stuck to specific techniques like you just asked me for, not understanding natural movement.

 

[KPM]

Are you unable to move outside of what is specifically taught? Seriously, you can't step or walk or run or skip or jump or roll or do a goddam cartwheel if necessary, if it isn't specifically taught in your wing chun? You are unable to do that? How to you walk to the bathroom? How do you run after a bus? How do you jump over a puddle? How do you bend over to pick up a sack of groceries, or kneel down to tie your shoe? If the only way you can move is how you are taught in wing chun, then you live a horribly constructed life.

Sometimes ya gotta just move, if that is what you need to do.

So....you're saying that Wing Chun may not possess everything needed in a fight and may have to actually do something from outside the system? It may need to actually "gap fill"..... to quote a resident expert? And if that is true....which is better?....to improvise with any old thing at the time and hope it works?.....or to actually train something that has footwork and strategies for that very purpose?

 

[wckf92]

Nope,I still don't believe that the footwork in WC has long range "game" if you can't show some proof that it can fight long range like HG or CLF.

How would you know this if you only were at SLT level before leaving for greener pastures?

 

[Knapf]

How would you know this if you only were at SLT level before leaving for greener pastures?

Wing Chun has it's "reputation". Also my memory involving a real fight made that left me frustrated

 

[Juany118]

My original point was that footwork in WC,Biu Ma,for example, was too slow. So if your point was that every lineage uses identical footwork but in practice they can be different,I would like to know how your lineage has better footwork.

1. I will never speak of something that is "better" in terms of WC. Also it's not that WC footwork is slow, rather it can be very tight.

2. TWC's footwork isn't "slow" as you describe, likely a consequence of the focus of "fighting on the blind side". To get to the flank as you are entering requires a bit of speed so it can be "wider" which provides speed.

This is a conversation, even debate, we have had a few times around here. Where some Lineages try to obtain such a superior position via their attack forcing the opponent, TWC has a focus on you moving to that position yourself, the way a boxer would. That requires more speed. So around here says that makes my lineage less effective. I make no such judgement, I just say it works for me /shrug.

3. When one reaches BJD one learns wider footwork in other Lineages (I studied another before TWC. Some around here have argued that WC may teach things backwards to an extent because a lot of footwork and the like doesn't get taught until after SLT. So I would suggest that if you didn't learn the advanced footwork that starts with CK and then is really opened up with the BJD that criticizing the footwork is odd.

 

[Knapf]

1. I will never speak of something that is "better" in terms of WC.

I would.

2. TWC's footwork isn't "slow" as you describe, likely a consequence of the focus of "fighting on the blind side". To get to the flank as you are entering requires a bit of speed.

Ok. That kinda makes sense. Although I still think that the footwork wouldn't be enough to chase an overactive opponent.

This is a conversation, even debate, we have had a few times around here. Where some Lineages try to obtain such a superior position via their attack forcing the opponent, TWC has a focus on you moving to that position yourself, the way a boxer would. That requires more speed. So around here says that makes my lineage less effective. I make no such judgement, I just say it works for me /shrug.

To each their own then.

 

[Juany118]

Ok. That kinda makes sense. Although I still think that the footwork wouldn't be enough to chase an overactive opponent.

In my experience an opponent that "over active", especially if retreating, would be so off balance that they would not only be ineffective in terms of the jabs and such that are used to maintain distance that I would be waiting for them to trip over their own feet

 

[DaveB]

So....you're saying that Wing Chun may not possess everything needed in a fight and may have to actually do something from outside the system? It may need to actually "gap fill"..... to quote a resident expert? And if that is true....which is better?....to improvise with any old thing at the time and hope it works?.....or to actually train something that has footwork and strategies for that very purpose?

I think your falling into a common trap.

Even the most well defined ma style is just a set of guiding principles.

You've understood your art not when you can fit each principle to a situation, but when you know when to make use of them and when to ignore them.

An easy example is to ask, do you duck the punch you didn't see in time to block even though throwing your head down and to the left isn't in any forms...
Or do you get hit?

Violence has waayyy too many permutations for any art to give in depth guidance on every possibility. Sometimes that might mean as you suggest, looking else where to fill the gaps.

However, just doing something better, like striking without looking to enter chi-sau or as most call it, basic striking, isn't really a detour from a style as it is a refinement of the individuals use of the style.

Unless that style lacks any striking or footwork...

 

[Juany118]

So....you're saying that Wing Chun may not possess everything needed in a fight and may have to actually do something from outside the system? It may need to actually "gap fill"..... to quote a resident expert? And if that is true....which is better?....to improvise with any old thing at the time and hope it works?.....or to actually train something that has footwork and strategies for that very purpose?

I don't think it needs to be "any old thing". Depending on the circumstance it could just require widening the footwork, so instead of half steps you take full steps. As @LFJ said, don't be a robot be a natural flowing human being.

Now of course the footwork would only correct some issues, I was just trying to provide one example. Another example would be like @DaveB said. If you don't deflect a strike you slip it, you don't take the hit.

 

[Danny T]

What it takes is a good understanding of the strategy and tactics for facing any sort of attacker, and then lots of practice actually facing people from other styles. Most Wing Chun simply doesn't have the strategy, and the practitioners don't face others enough. So, the result is to be expected.

Agreed.
Lots of practice facing good practitioners from other styles.
Wing Chun has the strategy...unfortunately many practitioners don't. And because they only train vs other wc or vs wc practitioners attempting to emulate what they think other styles do the failure rate is high.

If people think they can only move as in form, it sounds like they've never learned the free-fighting aspect. Only form and chi-sau. That's the problem.

I can move freely and quickly in any direction at long range, without resorting to other styles' ways of moving.

Again I agree.
Just move. Don't analyze or try to make it something special...just move naturally.

 

[KPM]

You've understood your art not when you can fit each principle to a situation, but when you know when to make use of them and when to ignore them.

---Oh, I'm in no trap here! I agree with you! But the key word I used before was "train." So it is better to just expect you will be able to apply those principles "on the fly" in an area you are not accustomed to, or to actually train a method meant specifically for that area that makes use of the same or similar principles?

An easy example is to ask, do you duck the punch you didn't see in time to block even though throwing your head down and to the left isn't in any forms...
Or do you get hit?

----A better question to ask is do you just hope and pray you will be able to duck the punch you didn't see when you are forced to, or is it better to actually practice a method that trains how to duck....and bob, and weave, etc.???

 

[Flying Crane]

Then we are not in disagreement then. Biu Ma in WC is too slow so it helps alot to adopt a Choy Lee Fat or Hung Ga style of advancing. I may not have stated that but that's what I would suggest.

Edit:My mistake .I overlooked your message

Gotcha, and looks like to was misinterpreting your message. Thx!