What was Wing Chun designed for?

[LFJ]

If your main VT strategy or tactic is to wedge in on the 45 degree angle and then charge into the opponent with a barrage of chain punches (as we see on so many WSLVT training clips, including the one you just posted),

It's not, and that is not what is done in any videos I've pointed to.

But that isn't the main strategy in the various versions of Wing Chun I have learned. And it has always seemed rather "one-dimensional" to me, as I've said before.

Wasn't talking about WC you've encountered.
And "one-dimensional" is an opinion that doesn't affect the efficacy of the method.

So given a chance, I would gladly do some training with him. But, given his known past attitude and behavior am I going to go out of my way to seek him out and risk wasting my time? Likely not, and I'm sure anyone that knows him from the other forum would say the same. In contrast, if I was ever in France I would definitely consider making an effort to visit Sean in Lille.

Okay. Well, given the lack of motivation or chance to do either, you'll just have to live without.

if it is Sean's clip you are referring to, you admitted that they were mixing in other things with VT because they were training for MMA competition. So it wasn't just VT vs. MMA.

The striking portion is VT.

Sean's guys weren't doing pure VT, as you yourself pointed out.

The striking portion is VT.

---Ok. So you only have one punch with two different energies. Seems a bit strange for such an effective striking art.

Okay...?

---And just where the heck do you think BJJ got it from????!!!!!

Didn't say BJJ. BJ = Biu-ji.

 

[DanT]

You don't go to a golf club and start teaching tennis.

You don't go to a basketball practice and start playing soccer.

You don't go to a boxing club and start teaching double legs.

You don't go to a Wing Chun club and start teaching arm bars.

You loose the essence of the system. It's an art, it does what it's designed for. If you want to learn a different sport or different art, go ahead, but don't have shitty wing chun and shitty judo and combine them and think you'll have anything more than ****.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing to learn multiple arts. In fact I think it's a great thing to have a diverse skill set, I have studied half a dozen martial arts myself. I don't mix them, I keep the skills and the training pure, and maintain the integrity of the arts that my teachers have taught me. If you want to learn wing chun, learn wing chun. If you want to learn Shaolin, learn Shaolin. If you want to learn Hong Kuen, learn Hong Kuen. You don't see Floyd Mayweather practicing double legs because boxing "doesn't have them." Boxing is boxing. Wing Chun is wing chun. BJJ is BJJ.

 

[KPM]

You loose the essence of the system. It's an art, it does what it's designed for. If you want to learn a different sport or different art, go ahead, but don't have shitty wing chun and shitty judo and combine them and think you'll have anything more than ****.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing to learn multiple arts. In fact I think it's a great thing to have a diverse skill set, I have studied half a dozen martial arts myself. I don't mix them, I keep the skills and the training pure, and maintain the integrity of the arts that my teachers have taught me. If you want to learn wing chun, learn wing chun. If you want to learn Shaolin, learn Shaolin. If you want to learn Hong Kuen, learn Hong Kuen. You don't see Floyd Mayweather practicing double legs because boxing "doesn't have them." Boxing is boxing. Wing Chun is wing chun. BJJ is BJJ.

Would you say JKD is ***? Would you say Krav Maga is ***? How about Sambo? Those are just a few of the arts that were derived from the combination of others. Do you believe the Wing Chun legend that suggests that the art came from a combination of a snake and a crane style? Nothing develops in a vacuum. Most traditional arts came from someone with a background in more than one thing combining to produce something new. A guy learns Choy Ga, Li Ga and Fut Ga and suddenly....whoala!.....Choy Li Fut Kung Fu is born. The classic Hung Ga of Wong Fei Hung was a combination of more than one village style. Combine Tae Kwon Do and Japanese Jiu Jutsu and you get Hapkido! White Crane Kung Fu adapted with some native Okinawan movements becomes Karate.

At one end of the spectrum, a near total melding of Wing Chun with Boxing is neither "classical" Wing Chun nor sport Boxing. It is "Wing Chun Boxing." It is its own thing. As I've said before, this wouldn't be for everyone and I certainly wouldn't want to see "classical" Wing Chun go away!

On the other end of the spectrum....Wing Chun can pick up a few things from Boxing that can improve some areas without really changing Wing Chun. People have already been doing that for awhile. Throwing in a high cover to defend a tight hook, using jabs or crosses to help move into close range, using evasive head movements (slipping, bobbing, ducking) at times, throwing shovel hooks to the body when in close, etc.

 

[Juany118]

You don't go to a golf club and start teaching tennis.

You don't go to a basketball practice and start playing soccer.

You don't go to a boxing club and start teaching double legs.

You don't go to a Wing Chun club and start teaching arm bars.

You loose the essence of the system. It's an art, it does what it's designed for. If you want to learn a different sport or different art, go ahead, but don't have shitty wing chun and shitty judo and combine them and think you'll have anything more than ****.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing to learn multiple arts. In fact I think it's a great thing to have a diverse skill set, I have studied half a dozen martial arts myself. I don't mix them, I keep the skills and the training pure, and maintain the integrity of the arts that my teachers have taught me. If you want to learn wing chun, learn wing chun. If you want to learn Shaolin, learn Shaolin. If you want to learn Hong Kuen, learn Hong Kuen. You don't see Floyd Mayweather practicing double legs because boxing "doesn't have them." Boxing is boxing. Wing Chun is wing chun. BJJ is BJJ.

The thing is your analogy only applies to your WC. Some Lineages, such as mine, not only have standing grappling but arm bars and other methods of "take down." Where did that come from in my Lineage? Who knows. Wing Chun works in it's realm, if trained properly, but like anything it has limits, each lineage having different limits, because nothing is perfect. I don't necessarily see the harm in someone trying to reduce those limitations by importing additional methodologies. So long as those methodologies don't undermine the core principles of WC it will still be WC. I think this is especially important if you are learning WC for real life combat where you may be confronted by a miriad of different fighting styles, some of which have techniques that can exploit the limits of WC, or any number of striking focused arts.

 

[LFJ]

I couldn't get the Wing Chun that I learned, to work outside the system itself. So the system worked excellent against other Chunners, but it didn't work well against my Pukulan and Silat teacher.

Two things:

Were you ever taught how to use the method in free fighting, and do free sparring, or just endless chi-sau? Many WC practitioners are never shown the free-fighting aspect beyond theory, whether it be because their teachers don't know it, or whatever... Not a fault of the system itself, I think.

And, do you think a few years in anything would work well against a trainer who presumably has many more years of experience fighting with their art? Might also be quite subjective.

I mean, personal experience in valid, but there might be particular reasons it didn't work for you.

 

[Juany118]

I was taught the free fighting but still got my *** handed to me by people that were practising Kickboxing, Silat, Pukulan etc.....
Maybe you are right and is a total of 8-9 years of Wing Chun not long enough to grasp the principles of the system and apply them outside the Wing Chun eco system.

It's all subjective and personal I think.

In my experience the main issue with WC, even those with full sparring, is that it is almost always WC v WC. This can create issues. As an example I have beaten more experienced and "better" WC practitioners because, in an effort to make myself more effective in real use, I would use Aikido when my WC couldn't overcome their WC. It's not that they weren't a better practitioner than I, it's the fact that they have only sparred against other WC practitioners. Such myopic training can create muscle memory that trips you up when you encounter a styles that have different methodologies. The degree of getting tripped up being based, in part, on how different the methodology in question is.

 

[LFJ]

I was taught the free fighting but still got my *** handed to me by people that were practising Kickboxing, Silat, Pukulan etc.....
Maybe you are right and is a total of 8-9 years of Wing Chun not long enough to grasp the principles of the system and apply them outside the Wing Chun eco system.

It's all subjective and personal I think.

Well, no. 8-9 years should be more than enough to fare well.
It sounded like you had a couple years here and a couple there.

Good Wing Chun is not something easy to come by.

I don't want to piss everyone off and say most get it wrong, but indeed few ever figure out how to get it to work against other styles. Current threads here indicate that pretty well.

What it takes is a good understanding of the strategy and tactics for facing any sort of attacker, and then lots of practice actually facing people from other styles. Most Wing Chun simply doesn't have the strategy, and the practitioners don't face others enough. So, the result is to be expected.

 

[DaveB]

Lots of people seem to agree that wing chun is lacking a "long range game".

Can anyone elaborate on what exactly that involves?

Most of the wing chun fighters I've seen getting beaten seemed to me to have 2 problems:
1. A need to embody an idealised formal aesthetic.
2. A lack of appreciation for the increased velocity of punches when the opponent is moving forward at the same time.

The antidote to number 2 is usually just improve your footwork so you can compensate for body movement
Take footwork skills a bit further and you can enter and escape at will.

I could be wrong but I don't think getting better at footwork would constitute a departure from the style.

 

[Juany118]

Lots of people seem to agree that wing chun is lacking a "long range game".

Can anyone elaborate on what exactly that involves?

Most of the wing chun fighters I've seen getting beaten seemed to me to have 2 problems:
1. A need to embody an idealised formal aesthetic.
2. A lack of appreciation for the increased velocity of punches when the opponent is moving forward at the same time.

The antidote to number 2 is usually just improve your footwork so you can compensate for body movement
Take footwork skills a bit further and you can enter and escape at will.

I could be wrong but I don't think getting better at footwork would constitute a departure from the style.

I think what people mean is this...how effective is the art if, for whatever reason you can't get to, or maintain, what some people refer to as "trapping" range and by trapping range I mean being close enough so that you can control the elbow of the opponent.

Naturally the WC punch can strike from outside this range but some Lineages of WC are hindered if they can't reach, and maintain, that sweet spot because they train the practitioner to use trapping techniques to create openings to strike and also to use being that close to moderate the effectiveness of kicks and certain "long fist" strikes your opponent may utilize.

Other arts are the opposite. As an example, Savate, if you trained it as a sport and not a street fighting art (there are actually some combative training methods) is far more effective at kicking range. This is a consequence of how points are scored. If you punch three times in a row you only get the point for the first punch in order to encourage kicking. As such a lot more time is spent training on kicking and punches are relegated to a more utilitarian purpose (set ups, gaining distance etc.)

 

[wckf92]

Straight punches can have two different energies.

This could make for an interesting thread topic. I'd like to learn more about it. I'm not sure what @LFJ means but I'm wondering (from watching vid clips of his lineage) if he means one energy is like a hard uprooting 'push'? And the other has more of a ballistic/KO quality / energy to it? Don't want to derail this thread though... perhaps a different thread or a PM...Thanks!

 

[Juany118]

This could make for an interesting thread topic. I'd like to learn more about it. I'm not sure what @LFJ means but I'm wondering (from watching vid clips of his lineage) if he means one energy is like a hard uprooting 'push'? And the other has more of a ballistic/KO quality / energy to it? Don't want to derail this thread though... perhaps a different thread or a PM...Thanks!

The only things I can think of are...
A. What you just described (usually due to the fact mass was put behind a punch without adequate acceleration)
B. He is talking about the mechanics of the punch. As an example you can be standing still and generate force via a "sinking" punch, by stepping as you punch, by stepping and sinking at the same time etc.

 

[LFJ]

None of the above. Every punch needs to count.

The basic taan and fuk concepts; the expanding or contracting energies in the elbow during the punch.

 

[Knapf]

Lots of people seem to agree that wing chun is lacking a "long range game".

Can anyone elaborate on what exactly that involves?

Wing Chun doesn't have a long range "game" unlike Hung Ga and Buk Sing Choy Lee Fat. Both arts have footwork which enable you to to get closer and strike at a far away or a retreating enemy. If you are using Wing Chun against a far or retreating enemy,there are no leaping or running moves to get you closer so it takes quite some time to get near. Especially not good when you have already gotten near and he retreats again .Try practicing with someone and ask them to stand far away at first and then retreat each time you get closer. Then stand in the usual stance(not Yi Ji kim yeung ma but the one you always use in WC) and try going after them while stepping forward with the front foot(Biu Ma?) each time you try to advance. You'll start feeling frustrated after some time.

 

[KPM]

Lots of people seem to agree that wing chun is lacking a "long range game".

Can anyone elaborate on what exactly that involves?

Most of the wing chun fighters I've seen getting beaten seemed to me to have 2 problems:
1. A need to embody an idealised formal aesthetic.
2. A lack of appreciation for the increased velocity of punches when the opponent is moving forward at the same time.

The antidote to number 2 is usually just improve your footwork so you can compensate for body movement
Take footwork skills a bit further and you can enter and escape at will.

I could be wrong but I don't think getting better at footwork would constitute a departure from the style.

Dave, here is what I posted in the "Wing Chun Boxing" thread:

From my current understanding, the "long range game" in boxing works something like this. Its about being able to control distance and dictate where the fight occurs. That means being able to move in when you see an advantage in in-fighting, and it means being able to stay just at the edge of contact range when you don't want to engage in in-fighting. In a nutshell....it is being able to conduct the fight at arm's reach and to choose NOT to be engaged at close-range. This means in addition to having short, tight and powerful punches on the inside, the fighter also has longer more extended punches that can come from various unpredictable angles at a longer distance. This also means having the ability to bait and lure the opponent into making mistakes, leaving openings, or over-reaching when you are at a longer range. It means having good footwork that will let you control distance and adjust angles quickly, using angles that make it harder for the opponent to land solid punches....in other words, being evasive and hard to hit. Good footwork is also required to move in and out at will....moving in to tag the opponent, and back out again before he can respond well.

So bottom-line.....having an "long range game" in boxing means the boxer can choose to conduct the entire fight at that range and prevent his opponent from bringing him into "clinch range" or "chi sau range".


As I've said numerous times now, there is a difference between having a "long range game" and having a strategy for surviving in the long range long enough to be able to move into close range. Personally I think it is quite obvious that the "long range game" as described above is not what Wing Chun was designed to do.

 

[wckf92]

Wing Chun doesn't have a long range "game" unlike Hung Ga and Buk Sing Choy Lee Fat. Both arts have footwork which enable you to to get closer and strike at a far away or a retreating enemy. If you are using Wing Chun against a far or retreating enemy,there are no leaping or running moves to get you closer so it takes quite some time to get near. Especially not good when you have already gotten near and he retreats again .Try practicing with someone and ask them to stand far away at first and then retreat each time you get closer. Then stand in the usual stance and try going after them while stepping forward with the front foot(Biu Ma?) each time you try to advance. You'll start feeling frustrated after some time.

Are you a Wing Chun practitioner who has completed all the training/entire curriculum?

 

[Knapf]

Are you a Wing Chun practitioner who has completed all the training/entire curriculum?

I only did SLT before I quit for obvious reasons. I know that even if I had finished the entire curriculum,there will still not be some sort of long range footwork taught to me.

 

[DaveB]

I think what people mean is this...how effective is the art if, for whatever reason you can't get to, or maintain, what some people refer to as "trapping" range and by trapping range I mean being close enough so that you can control the elbow of the opponent.

Naturally the WC punch can strike from outside this range but some Lineages of WC are hindered if they can't reach, and maintain, that sweet spot because they train the practitioner to use trapping techniques to create openings to strike and also to use being that close to moderate the effectiveness of kicks and certain "long fist" strikes your opponent may utilize.

Other arts are the opposite. As an example, Savate, if you trained it as a sport and not a street fighting art (there are actually some combative training methods) is far more effective at kicking range. This is a consequence of how points are scored. If you punch three times in a row you only get the point for the first punch in order to encourage kicking. As such a lot more time is spent training on kicking and punches are relegated to a more utilitarian purpose (set ups, gaining distance etc.)

So the tools are there (punch and kick).

The tactics are there (hit where the opponent is empty?... where they aren't defending/watching).

All that's missing is the practice bit.

Can anyone suggest some good drills for fighting at distance and without chi sau?

My close quarter kung fu taught me to use short quick steps rather than lunging longer steps, to circle to their blind side as it forces adjustment and use angles in both attack and retreat.

It sounds like we've nearly cracked it.

 

[KPM]

I don't want to piss everyone off and say most get it wrong,

---Turning over a new leaf? That has never concerned you in the past!


but indeed few ever figure out how to get it to work against other styles.

---Few seem to get it to work in a sparring/free-fighting environment against other styles without alterations. Maybe because that kind of setting is not what it was designed for?


What it takes is a good understanding of the strategy and tactics for facing any sort of attacker, and then lots of practice actually facing people from other styles.

----True. But interesting that in all those numerous training clips from WSLVT/PB people we've only seen....what...one clip of WSLVT people facing other styles? And that was specifically Sean's group training for MMA and not standard WSLVT training? Strange, given your comment above!!!


Most Wing Chun simply doesn't have the strategy, and the practitioners don't face others enough. So, the result is to be expected.[

---Well, given the evidence we do have for WSLVT, and the fact that the evidence to support what you are saying is lacking....the reasonable conclusion is that what you do fits in with "most Wing Chun" as well. That is, until proven otherwise.

 

[Knapf]

I can't remember who it was, but I think it was someone is this very forum that described Wing Chun as an "ambush style."

Yup. It could be an ambush style. It's supposed to be the art of the assassin, when you are already close to the target,you use a straight punch to the throat to disable the enemy's possiblity to call for backup. Then you use whatever you are taught in WC to kill him. But then again..........I only heard this on the net and there's really no sources to back up my story. Maybe there are and I would like to see it.

Still,only using the straight punch (without left or right hooks,leopard fists or hammer fists )may not be enough if your enemy uses more types of punches than you.Well of course you have the eye gouge,throat poke and strikes to vital points but you should have more types of punches at your disposal.

 

[Parky]

Wing Chun doesn't have a long range "game" unlike Hung Ga and Buk Sing Choy Lee Fat. Both arts have footwork which enable you to to get closer and strike at a far away or a retreating enemy. If you are using Wing Chun against a far or retreating enemy,there are no leaping or running moves to get you closer so it takes quite some time to get near. Especially not good when you have already gotten near and he retreats again .Try practicing with someone and ask them to stand far away at first and then retreat each time you get closer. Then stand in the usual stance(not Yi Ji kim yeung ma but the one you always use in WC) and try going after them while stepping forward with the front foot(Biu Ma?) each time you try to advance. You'll start feeling frustrated after some time.

This is funny stuff to me. There are no leaping or running moves to get you closer? I'm imagining some stiff and rigid WC guy using shuffle-step footwork trying to bridge some HUGE gap...like one of those 'athletes' who walk super fast, and meanwhile the opponent keeps taking slow steps backward laughing at the dumb Wing Chun guy. As if Wing Chun is some ball and chain attached to the legs and you have to abandon everything else your body already knows how to do and try and do it the 'Wing Chun Way'. If someone is retreating I will let them. If I feel like pursuing them I will walk toward them. If they run away, depending on the circumstances, I will smile and wave goodbye.