What was Wing Chun designed for?

[Lobo66]

The guys at Ving Tsun Schriesheim have been orgainizing the Delta Cup for some years now. It's an open style competition, with people from MT, Boxing, MMA and, yes, Ving Tusn and Wing Chun participating. Here's one of the VT participants scoring a TKO against someone from an MMA gym :

And a VT guy getting TKO'd :

 

[DaveB]

Really? Please share some of these videos!

The rest you'll need to do yourself.

 

[DaveB]

This whole debate about whether wing chun functions is nonsense.

Do straight punches hurt people?
If yes then wing chun works.

Everything else is about the fighter and their preparation.

And no, how they train is not the fighting style. How they fight is the fighting style. The clue is in the name "fighting style", NOT "Training style".

I can train a wing chun punch only hitting air.
I can train a wing chun punch only hitting people.
I can train a wing chun punch only hitting bags.

I am still training to fight with wing chun whichever one I CHOOSE to do.

If you want to argue that the traditional training of wc is not useful that is an argument you can make. But whether or not a style works is a nonsense because the style is nothing without the person using it.

Any style can work if you train it right.

 

[Martial D]

Your showing your youth.

Lack of camera phone video doesn't disprove a proposition.

Furthermore you can find lots of YouTube video of wing chun winning in fights and competitions. It's just that there's always an excuse why it's not a valid win.

Am I? I'm probably older than you are. What I am showing is realism, and that reality is that there is no equality in life, especially not in the martial arts.

Video evidence is one kind of evidence, yes, and if you are old enough to be talking about my youth you should realize we had it before we all carried phones in our pockets. The total absence of it's existence is pretty compelling, but there is no evidence of any other sort either, aside from anecdotal, which isn't really evidence at all.

One thing I have learned over my years is that when people try to downplay a lack of evidence and instead urge you to just take their word for something, it's generally smoke and mirrors.

 

[Martial D]

This whole debate about whether wing chun functions is nonsense.

Do straight punches hurt people?
If yes then wing chun works.

Everything else is about the fighter and their preparation.

And no, how they train is not the fighting style. How they fight is the fighting style. The clue is in the name "fighting style", NOT "Training style".

I can train a wing chun punch only hitting air.
I can train a wing chun punch only hitting people.
I can train a wing chun punch only hitting bags.

I am still training to fight with wing chun whichever one I CHOOSE to do.

If you want to argue that the traditional training of wc is not useful that is an argument you can make. But whether or not a style works is a nonsense because the style is nothing without the person using it.

Any style can work if you train it right.

Man trained in welding dull spoon vs man trained in welding sharp sword, who wins?

 

[LFJ]

We were talking about "intent"....what the movement represents. You are just being argumentative. Again!!!

Not being argumentative. That action doesn't represent the intent to punch someone with a bent wrist.

One thing I have learned over my years is that when people try to downplay a lack of evidence and instead urge you to just take their word for something, it's generally smoke and mirrors.

No one has been asked to believe anything.
I specifically said I don't care to convince anyone.

If interested, people have been invited to go check it out.
If not interested or unwilling to do so, don't talk about "lack of evidence".

 

[Knapf]

Your showing your youth.

Lack of camera phone video doesn't disprove a proposition.

Furthermore you can find lots of YouTube video of wing chun winning in fights and competitions. It's just that there's always an excuse why it's not a valid win.

It depends on what the "excuse" is. If the excuses make sense then they should be good reasons why it wasn't a valid win.

WC vs CLF. Compare the massive power a regular CLF guy has compared to WC. Here you get a CLF fighter who; is afraid to advance,punches once or twice and stays still or moves back. Where are the combos?There's no CLF here at all. I smell a rat.

 

[Knapf]

The rest you'll need to do yourself.

I stopped at 0:17. Powerful and better conditioned Karate guy with more power not using front kicks to push WC guy away?And no kicks to the WC guy's thigh?

 

[Grenadier]

Admin's note:

Folks, we've had a lot of people stirring up trouble in this forum. I'm only going to say this once, before handing out more warning points.

(For those who are unfamiliar with the Xenforo system, accumulation of warning points will lead to the suspension or banning of your account)

Keep it civil, and refrain from style bashing.

 

[Knapf]

Admin's note:

Folks, we've had a lot of people stirring up trouble in this forum. I'm only going to say this once, before handing out more warning points.

(For those who are unfamiliar with the Xenforo system, accumulation of warning points will lead to the suspension or banning of your account)

Keep it civil, and refrain from style bashing.

Sorry.Will remove video with such a title. Also edited a lot of words after removing video

 

[DaveB]

Man trained in welding dull spoon vs man trained in welding sharp sword, who wins?

Well since they are playing chess I have no idea.

But seriously (or rather, less esoterically), trained how? For how long? For what purpose? With what natural talent? Why are they fighting? How willing are they to hurt one another?

The factors affecting the outcome of a fight are endless. If spoon guy is defending his child it's a different story to a HEMA match.

 

[Martial D]

Well since they are playing chess I have no idea.

But seriously (or rather, less esoterically), trained how? For how long? For what purpose? With what natural talent? Why are they fighting? How willing are they to hurt one another?

The factors affecting the outcome of a fight are endless. If spoon guy is defending his child it's a different story to a HEMA match.

Let's say all things are equal, who wins?

My point here is though it might be the easiest road to spare feelings and maintain an air of political correctness, the assertion that all styles are equally effective just isn't supported by the evidence or indeed, common sense.

 

[DaveB]

It depends on what the "excuse" is. If the excuses make sense then they should be good reasons why it wasn't a valid win.

WC vs CLF. Compare the massive power a regular CLF guy has compared to WC. Here you get a CLF fighter who; is afraid to advance,punches once or twice and stays still or moves back. Where are the combos?There's no CLF here at all. I smell a rat.

See, that to me is a weak excuse. 2 people fought, the clf guy swung and kicked and generally led the fight. The chun guy eventually blasted in and landed far more shots.

A style doesn't fight a person fights. I don't know CLF but if the guy wasn't a great clf representative isnt it more likely that he just isnt very good yet? Same for the wing chun guy.
This looked like perfectly reasonable student level sparring and the wing chun guy did pretty good. No more no less.

 

[DaveB]

I stopped at 0:17. Powerful and better conditioned Karate guy with more power not using front kicks to push WC guy away?And no kicks to the WC guy's thigh?

Because a style doesn't make you robot that auto hits with trademark moves.

The man had to make the choice and perhaps due to the way the chun guy stood or moved he didn't think it was right at the time.

Watch the rest. Some karate guys win, some chun guys win. Its the reality of people fighting as opposed to the fiction of style vs style.

 

[Knapf]

See, that to me is a B.S. excuse. 2 people fought, the clf guy swung and kicked and generally led the fight. The chun guy eventually blasted in and landed far more shots.

It is not a weak "excuse" if it makes sense. And no.There were no swings,right hooks or sow chois. The CLF guy only did two backfists but he didn't swing. The CLF guy could have just steamrolled his way to victory.

A style doesn't fight a person fights.

"It's not the style it's the fighter" doesn't ring true all the time. And that's because *censored*

I don't know CLF but if the guy wasn't a great clf representative isnt it more likely that he just isnt very good yet? Same for the wing chun guy.

Heard that a thousand times before. Yet reality shows things differently.

This looked like perfectly reasonable student level sparring and the wing chun guy did pretty good. No more no less.

*Censored* What I want to say cannot be stated here. No style bashing remember? I'll be willing to PM what I intended to say if you prefer.

 

[Knapf]

Because a style doesn't make you robot that auto hits with trademark moves.

The man had to make the choice and perhaps due to the way the chun guy stood or moved he didn't think it was right at the time.

Watch the rest. Some karate guys win, some chun guys win. Its the reality of people fighting as opposed to the fiction of style vs style.

The reason the Kyoukushin guy didn't use his superior power to overwhelm WC shows that there's something very wrong with him

 

[Danny T]

You guys are talking about "the opponent" and "to the body" when discussing a one-man form.

You must be seeing things.

No I'm talking about movement.

 

[karatejj]

The functionality of the system doesn't rely on you having seen it work. Plenty of people have. Most importantly those who train it.

I don't care one bit to convince you, but I suggest going to see and educating yourself on the system before attempting to talk about if or how well it works.

Have too say, you have are point here!!

 

[karatejj]

It ties to the concept of functional. The better system functions better. Then we figure out why those concepts work.

If you have not seen it work, how can you say anything about how it works or does not work?? Lol

 

[karatejj]

So you are saying, in effect, that the forms in the vt you study aren't purposed to train your body to deal with opponents? What else would that movement be for?

Their are not karate katas man!