What was Wing Chun designed for?

[Knapf]

I was saying the duck and cover at long range is unlike WB, for one because the stance and footwork is the exact opposite. The fighting strategy and tactics are contradictory at long and close range between WB and VT.

The cover using a single arm is familiar to WB, but exists in many TCMAs totally unrelated and predating WB.

To say it came "straight from" WB is like saying the VT dang-geuk came straight from MT.

It just shows an ignorance of Martial Arts of the world in general.

Mm.Ok

 

[KPM]

He started using it as a standard tactic after seeing its usefulness elsewhere.

---I have maintained all along that this was something that was taken from outside of WSLVT. I have said that it may match conceptually with things from your BG form, but that this does not make it "pure WSLVT." I even gave an example of how several things from Pin Sun Wing Chun match even more closely conceptually AND structurally to boxing, but that this wouldn't make them "pure Pin Sun" when they are being done in a boxing-like format. To continually maintain that they are "pure WSLVT" when Sean has admitted himself that it comes from elsewhere...and you just said "after seeing its usefulness elsewhere".....is just blatantly dishonest. I don't know how else to describe it.


That doesn't make it non-VT.

---It doesn't make it "pure WSLVT" either!


You are dishonestly taking an overly rigid view of forms here, while elsewhere you argue that actions in forms can be adapted to fit multiple scenarios by following the concept.

---No I'm not! I have stated several times that you can have concepts from the forms that match technical things from elsewhere and so incorporate them in what you do. But that does not make them "pure WSLVT." For you to deny that what is happening has been inspired by other systems....whether that was MMA, boxing, or other Chinese methods...and claim them as "pure WSLVT" is dishonest.


You are clearly ego-driven to deny these things as VT, because of deficiencies in your own WC learning.

----I'm the "ego-driven" one here?

 

[LFJ]

---I have maintained all along that this was something that was taken from outside of WSLVT.

Then you have taken on a burden of proof, but your only argument is that it looks like something else, which is just ignorance of MAs of the world.

I have said that it may match conceptually with things from your BG form, but that this does not make it "pure WSLVT."

It matches in form as well, as the pictures show the exact same position.

To continually maintain that they are "pure WSLVT" when Sean has admitted himself that it comes from elsewhere...and you just said "after seeing its usefulness elsewhere".....is just blatantly dishonest.

He didn't comment on where it comes from. He said what led him to incorporate it, but that it is rightly a BJ tactic.

---It doesn't make it "pure WSLVT" either!

Then your argument must not be that it came from WB, because it is found in many TCMAs unrelated to and predating WB.

Therefore, I could point to any one of them and say WB is not "pure WB" because this technique exists elsewhere.

But, that would be quite ignorant, and is the mistake you're making now.

you can have concepts from the forms that match technical things from elsewhere and so incorporate them in what you do. But that does not make them "pure WSLVT."

The concept and technical form of the high cover exist in WSLVT without looking elsewhere, as I've demonstrated.

Being inspired to make standard use of it from working with others who use it, doesn't make it impure VT.

For you to deny that what is happening has been inspired by other systems....whether that was MMA, boxing, or other Chinese methods...and claim them as "pure WSLVT" is dishonest.

It would help if you knew what you're talking about.
I've just demonstrated that it is purely WSLVT in concept and form, though it is used elsewhere, too.

----I'm the "ego-driven" one here?

Clearly.

 

[Juany118]

I was saying the duck and cover at long range is unlike WB, for one because the stance and footwork is the exact opposite. The fighting strategy and tactics are contradictory at long and close range between WB and VT.

The cover using a single arm is familiar to WB, but exists in many TCMAs totally unrelated and predating WB.

To say it came "straight from" WB is like saying the VT dang-geuk came straight from MT.

It just shows an ignorance of Martial Arts of the world in general.

I think the last part is the most important. Biomechanics are biomechanics, we can only move in certain ways. High covers exist in both the TWC and the Kali I study. When you can only move in certain ways you will see very similar actions. I run into this all the time talking about weapon work with a HEMA friend of mine as we compare notes on HEMA vs FMA sword work

 

[LFJ]

I think the last part is the most important. Biomechanics are biomechanics, we can only move in certain ways. High covers exist in both the TWC and the Kali I study. When you can only move in certain ways you will see very similar actions. I run into this all the time talking about weapon work with a HEMA friend of mine as we compare notes on HEMA vs FMA sword work

Yup. Having studied a number of TCMAs, I see similarities everywhere between them.
But, I won't say one came from the other unless they're actually historically connected.

Because, "biomechanics are biomechanics". Similarities are to be expected to a great extent.

That's why to look at this simple action and say that's not pure VT because some other style uses it is either dishonest, or just plain ignorant.

If you look at the photos I provided, you'll see the exact same arm position as in the form.
Arm thrown up to cover. Hand and forearm wrapping the head, elbow lifted to point forward.

The arm position is exactly the same in these photos.
Only the body and head positions differ slightly, for the situations.

But, the last one was objected to because it's done with one arm, and boxers do that...

All VT forms have simultaneous arm actions, while they're often used individually. We should all know this.
This Biu-ji action is an example. Done individually, the single high cover is exactly what you get.

To not acknowledge this is to either be ignorant of VT, and unwilling to learn, or ego-driven bias to avoid conceding the legitimacy of the high cover in the VT system, for some silly reason.

High covers exist in both the TWC and the Kali I study.

Anyway, this is interesting, because TWC is KPM's claimed base style.
Where are high covers in TWC and how is it done?

 

[KPM]

[If you look at the photos I provided, you'll see the exact same arm position as in the form.
Arm thrown up to cover. Hand and forearm wrapping the head, elbow lifted to point forward.

---Except if you look at the actual video, WSL never pauses in the position you have frozen in the picture. Not even for a nanosecond. So your photo gives a very false impression. He is also looking straight at the ground. Can you pause there? Sure! Was that what WSL intended....a high cover? I seriously doubt it! Would Ip Man have ever done a high cover like that? I seriously doubt it. Does that make it wrong? Of course not! That just shows there was an outside influence that lead people to seeing this motion in the BJ form and deciding that it was close enough to the high cover seen in other systems. So that high cover from other systems could be "borrowed" and still be seen to fit with WSLVT concepts from the BJ form. Does that make it "pure WSLVT"? I don't think so.

---But LFJ can defame me and continue his character assassination all he wants. I'm just pointing out common sense!

 

[Juany118]

Yup. Having studied a number of TCMAs, I see similarities everywhere between them.
But, I won't say one came from the other unless they're actually historically connected.

Because, "biomechanics are biomechanics". Similarities are to be expected to a great extent.

That's why to look at this simple action and say that's not pure VT because some other style uses it is either dishonest, or just plain ignorant.

If you look at the photos I provided, you'll see the exact same arm position as in the form.
Arm thrown up to cover. Hand and forearm wrapping the head, elbow lifted to point forward.

The arm position is exactly the same in these photos.
Only the body and head position differ.

But, the last one was objected to because it's done with one arm, and boxers do that...

All VT forms have simultaneous arm actions, while they're often used individually. We should all know this.
This Biu-ji action is an example. Done individually, the single high cover is exactly what you get.

To not acknowledge this is to either be ignorant of VT, and unwilling to learn, or ego-driven bias to avoid conceding the legitimacy of the high cover in the VT system, for some silly reason.

Anyway, this is interesting, because TWC is KPM's claimed base style.
Where are high covers in TWC and how is it done?

We learn the elbow shield you show in the last photo but that isn't specifically contained in the forms. There is also one that is not as high but can still cover the head and you can also use it to take balance as you enter a kin to jamming bong sau, that has the particular name chuen sau. That is contain in Biu Jee.

 

[LFJ]

---Except if you look at the actual video, WSL never pauses in the position you have frozen in the picture.

He's doing a form, not fighting.

Nor is he teaching and explaining it to you.

You can't learn VT from videos!

So your photo gives a very false impression. He is also looking straight at the ground. Can you pause there? Sure!

On the way up, recovering from a ducking position.
Is that the only time you can use it? Of course not!

There is no false impression. You have just not been taught this form or how to fight with VT.

Was that what WSL intended....a high cover? I seriously doubt it! Would Ip Man have ever done a high cover like that? I seriously doubt it.

You doubt this based on 0 knowledge or experience of what they taught, only a silly ego-driven bias because you never learned it in your poverty-stricken experience of fragmented WC.

That just shows there was an outside influence that lead people to seeing this motion in the BJ form and deciding that it was close enough to the high cover seen in other systems.

What just shows...?? You are only making a bald assertion.

So that high cover from other systems could be "borrowed" and still be seen to fit with WSLVT concepts from the BJ form. Does that make it "pure WSLVT"? I don't think so.

But, it is. You don't know this because you have no knowledge or experience of VT, and are unwilling to learn.

If you want to make this claim that it was borrowed from another system, you need to show decisively what system in particular, and by whom.

Otherwise, it is just your bald assertion while you don't even know the first thing about WSLVT!

I'm just pointing out common sense!

Common sense would be to have some knowledge of what you're talking about before making assumptions and assertions.

 

[LFJ]

We learn the elbow shield you show in the last photo but that isn't specifically contained in the forms. There is also one that is not as high but can still cover the head and you can also use it to take balance as you enter a kin to jamming bong sau, that has the particular name chuen sau. That is contain in Biu Jee.

Interesting. Wonder why KPM has not learned this even in what he claims to be his base style?

As I understand it, TWC and other WC lineages also incorporate various types of hook punches and uppercuts. Yet, these are unquestionably original to the system and not adapted or even copied straight from Western Boxing?

Is the ego-driven bias not overwhelmingly obvious here??

 

[Nobody Important]

Anyone interested in this conversation (or any recent threads) should consider taking a look here

Troll - 100 Plus Types and Examples of Internet Trolls

before posting, to get an idea of what you're getting into.

 

[paitingman]

Anyone that thinks that picture 1 above is the same thing as picture 4 above and that picture 4 is "nothing like western boxing" is obviously delusional!

it could be that since, as LFJ has stated before, some movements in the VT forms are abstract representations/exercises of another idea or movement. Therefore they don't actually look exactly like in the exercise or form.

Application based exercises like in other systems or in WB, would have their guard exactly like they do in certain drills (or forms).

 

[LFJ]

it could be that since, as LFJ has stated before, some movements in the VT forms are abstract representations/exercises of another idea or movement. Therefore they don't actually look exactly like in the exercise or form.

Application based exercises like in other systems or in WB, would have their guard exactly like they do in certain drills (or forms).

Correct. The action in the form is telling you to cover your head to intercept whatever may be coming.

We all know WC forms, in any lineage, have double-arm actions that are applied individually.

That's why the dishonesty and bias is obvious when an exception is arbitrarily made to this fundamental fact common across lineages in this particular case.

 

[Juany118]

Interesting. Wonder why KPM has not learned this even in what he claims to be his base style?

As I understand it, TWC and other WC lineages also incorporate various types of hook punches and uppercuts. Yet, these are unquestionably original to the system and not adapted or even copied straight from Western Boxing?

Is the ego-driven bias not overwhelmingly obvious here??

Well to be fair he does know chuen say, we have discussed it and the elbow shield is essentially an exaggerated chuen sau. The main thing that makes a chuen a chuen is how it's deployed. It translates as "threading hand" and you raise the chuen up the way you might a needle when sewing (it's hard to describe).

We also use round punchs, but they are "tight" and I will admit the mechanics are a bit different. There is not a lot of body rotation and you never cross the center line. A lot of the force comes from you stepping in as you strike and we only intend to use it on soft targets. As an example the buffalo punch would be to the throat, neck or base of the skull. As such a lot of people don't put a lot of practice into them because they have limited utility.

 

[Phobius]

And a note to all. Just because something exist in other styles as well it does not make a technique or movement any less a "pure" action within one of those arts.

Otherwise we would all be doing mma since we all share something intentional or not.

 

[drop bear]

Wrong. As I just said a couple pages ago;

VT is trained in such a way that any even slight deviation in principle will be immediately obvious to the practitioner. It's self-correcting in that way.

Since, as I said, WB is the polar opposite of VT at both long and short range, it's impossible that one would be incorporating WB without realizing it.

But, more importantly, since they are directly contradictory, switching to WB strategy or tactics will render VT ineffective. They simply do not blend. If you want to do one, you have to completely abandon the other. So, there is no purposeful mixing of the two either.

Point being, no, WSL's VT was not influenced by WB. That can be clearly seen in how contradictory they are.

Doesn't lobo do exactly that?

 

[drop bear]

Hey guys,
As I said before in regards to the original topic of this thread, training has to be contextualized in order to be effective.
We are training to take part in open martial arts competitions with pancrase rules, so we must adapt to this context. That means including grappling and submission training as well as training defensive gestures against attacks that are not typically found in WC (low kicks and high roundhouse kicks, overhand rights, etc).

The high elbow cover is something that I started to integrate into my classes after working with Tim Cartmell, who is an expert in the Chinese internal martial arts as well as BJJ (3rd degree black belt under Cleber Luciano). This technique is widely used in both traditional CMA and in modern MMA. It works. I like things that work. It also does not compromise our VT structure or strategy, in my opinion. As LFJ rightly points out, it is more of a BJ tactic, "looking beyond the pointing finger" as it were. But let's not get caught up in where it comes from....that misses the whole point.

Head movement is an important part of fighting, and can be integrated into any martial art (although there are those who may disagree with me) I do teach my students the basics of slipping, ducking, weaving, lean-back, etc.

That's pretty obvious in this video :

.

Is that your clip?

Because it would go a long way to confirming if that is pure VT or a hibrid.

 

[drop bear]

And a note to all. Just because something exist in other styles as well it does not make a technique or movement any less a "pure" action within one of those arts.

Otherwise we would all be doing mma since we all share something intentional or not.

Yeah but we have two concepts at play here.

One is that pure VT is represented in other arts. The other is that it is impossible to integrate other styles into VT because of its uniqueness.

 

[Nobody Important]

Yeah but we have two concepts at play here.

One is that pure VT is represented in other arts. The other is that it is impossible to integrate other styles into VT because of its uniqueness.

Not impossible at all. Its a superstitious belief that if a tree is felled then the sky will come crashing down. Integration is not impossible, its simply refusal to acknowledge that some arts potentially contain a few better attributes than what your art does and are performed in a manner in which you don't believe your system can operate. It's dogma and fear, not truth. If BJJ can be added to Wing Chun as a compliment for grappling, because it is vastly different, then so can boxing because it is also so vastly different. Its only when a system is recognized as too similar that conflicts arise in some minds, to me, this still doesn't make sense, because then it should be even easier to integrate pieces that work better than or can elevate what you currently have. This whole "It violate the theory and principles" thing is ridiculous nonsense. To say that your striking or grappling method has nothing valuable to learn from other striking or grappling methods that can be integrated into yours, because it undermines the strategy, theory, principle, mechanics etc. of your system is ludicrous. No one method has it all, especially for the myriad of personalities involved, what works for one person may not for another. Styles are generic; Specific attributes are created by the individual teaching them, based on their understanding of the principles, theories and their favored approach to them. This does not mean that any one method is locked into that individuals interpretation, it will work for some but not others, and without experimentation into how others interpret, there is no growth only stagnation.

 

[KPM]

Interesting. Wonder why KPM has not learned this even in what he claims to be his base style?

As I understand it, TWC and other WC lineages also incorporate various types of hook punches and uppercuts. Yet, these are unquestionably original to the system and not adapted or even copied straight from Western Boxing?

Is the ego-driven bias not overwhelmingly obvious here??

Dude! You are really something else! And you're starting to sound a bit desperate!

 

[KPM]

Well to be fair he does know chuen say, we have discussed it and the elbow shield is essentially an exaggerated chuen sau. .

True! And also as I pointed out before, the elbow shield is essentially an exaggerated "Tun Sau" or "Sao Sau" from Pin Sun Wing Chun. However, I wouldn't do what is also essentially an "elbow shield" the way boxing does (without exaggerating anything....without saying "see, if you freeze this motion at this particular instant....") and then tell people that it is "pure TWC" or "pure Pin Sun Wing Chun." No, I would be honest and tell people that this high cover I am using was inspired by western boxing, but also conceptually matches with an exaggerated Chuen Sau from TWC or an exaggerated Tun Sau from Pin Sun, and so fits with those systems just fine. Because I don't have this need to try and defend anything and prove to people that what I do is the "real thing" and "true VT" and "exactly what Ip Man taught" and "non-gap filled" and "the best damn thing since sliced bread"!!!!!