What was Wing Chun designed for?

[LFJ]

If you can't negate the message, then attack the messenger!

I can negate the message, but the "messenger" doesn't understand for obvious lack of experience and knowledge, not to mention ego keeping his eyes covered and ears plugged.

Evidenced by the fact that you will put out effort to hunt down my bio, but you won't put out effort to describe how all those boxing-like things from Sean's clip are found in the WSLVT Biu Gee form. You've got nothing! Obviously!

I said at the end, but I hadn't taken into account that you never learned the form in any lineage! It's in the last action.

It's nothing like WB, though. VT doesn't bob and weave under punches at close range. He ducked under a long-range kick. And the high cover is just the biu-ji tactic used as standard defense against other styles because it works.

Nothing non-VT about it! Saying it comes from boxing is like saying the oblique kick is not pure VT because other styles use something similar, too.

It's just ignorance, which is to be expected looking at your very limited experience.

 

[geezer]

...VT doesn't use a lead-rear leg stance at long-range. It keeps the leg out of the danger zone, either outside of kicking range, or inside of it.

This can help in drawing and baiting tactics to get the opponent to overextend, which opens them up for counter-kicking or punching. It's deceptive in that you don't actually lose reach. Of course, there's a lot more to the strategy and long-range tactics to accomplish this.

This is useful information that gives me a glimpse into how you see the WSL-VT long-range game. BTW, I agree with this approach.

Please, continue in this vane rather than continuing the endless insult exchange with KPM.

 

[LFJ]

Apart from that, would you more or less agree with the very basic points Peterson touches on in this beginner demo? Simple stuff like facing your opponent squarely, chasing center while forcing your opponent off-center?

The basic concepts of chiu-ying vs baai-ying are of course central to VT.

Some of what he says or thinks will work is a bit idealistic, while fighting is more dynamic than that, though. You're not going to just stand there and make someone fall over themselves because they pressed on your arm while you're facing them. Sounds a bit too Hendrik-like to me.

 

[LFJ]

Please, continue in this vane rather than continuing the endless insult exchange with KPM.

Trying. Probably would have been able to explain more in a more productive discussion with others if KPM wasn't so desperate with his ego-driven denial of what he's been shown and had explained to him.

 

[geezer]

It's in the last action ...It's nothing like WB, though. VT doesn't bob and weave under punches at close range. He ducked under a long-range kick. And the high cover is just the biu-ji tactic used as standard defense against other styles because it works.

^^^Here's your last post edited to remove the distracting references to KPM. Notice how much more informative it is!

So, you apparently see the movement where the guy ducks the kick in the sparring video as utilizing the concept embodied in the forward-bending movement at the end of Biu Tze. Now I find that informative.

In my VT, we usually would see that bending as a response to a physical force, with the body bending like bamboo, when force is applied ...not in anticipation of impending impact. But what you say makes perfect sense, especially in the context of WSL-VT as you have explained it in the past.

Now, regarding the "high cover" (bolded above) that looks like a boxer's "peek-a-boo" guard -- we have nothing that looks similar in the VT I train, yet I concede its usefulness. Could you please clarify where that concept is found in your lineage. Otherwise, I would also have assumed it was borrowed from boxing or MMA.

 

[geezer]

The basic concepts of chiu-ying vs baai-ying are of course central to VT. Some of what he says or thinks will work is a bit idealistic, while fighting is more dynamic than that, though. You're not going to just stand there and make someone fall over themselves because they pressed on your arm while you're facing them...

I agree. Not with the "Hendrick" part though. That was just ...too mean!

So I will be interested to hear what Malos found so risible. My guess is that he objects to what your referred to as it being "a bit idealistic" and not dynamic. It would never be functional in sparring as posed. But then it's just a basic explanatory demo. I get that, and as such, have no problem with it.

And, as far as the "getting an angle" thing goes --where you either offline or turn your opponent aside so that he is not facing your center, a friend of mine who is an MMA coach with a lot of boxing experience makes this one of his key principles. So I don't get the joke there either.

...or perhaps Malos' issue is with standing upright with your head exposed and expecting that your opponent won't nail you on the chin. Now that's a legitimate concern

 

[LFJ]

So, you see the movement where the guy ducks the kick in the sparring video as utilizing the concept embodied in the bending movement at the end of Biu Tze. Now I find that informative...

...Now, regarding the "high cover" (bolded above) that looks like a boxer's "peek-a-boo" guard -- we have nothing that looks similar in the VT I train, yet I concede it's usefulness. Could you please clarify where that concept is found in your lineage. Otherwise, I would also have assumed it was borrowed from boxing or MMA.

I'm talking about the same action. Recovery from that position involves bringing your hands to the side and back of your head while throwing the elbows up to cover. Held tightly it can be used to effectively cover from non-VT strikes. It's not typical. It's biu-ji, but it works well when needed. Nothing non-VT about using it.

If you're talking about how you display your guard, I think outside of contact range it makes little difference, and is perhaps better not to display a "style". You can hold your arms however you like. Things change as range changes. You can go from man/wu baiting guard, pre-contact, to linking actions working from rotating man/wu concepts without holding a particular guard, since both arms are engaging in action.

To think one is doing Western Boxing simply because they hold their hands naturally, closer to the head at pre-contact range is quite rigid thinking. You don't have to do Yip Man statue poses when you fight. Be loose and dynamic.

 

[KPM]

I'm talking about the same action. Recovery from that position involves bringing your hands to the side and back of your head while throwing the elbows up to cover. .

So you equate bending directly forward at the waist with knees practically straight and looking at the ground with a boxer's duck and bob & weave???? And you equate the flinging the arms overhead in a big circle that come nowhere close to the side the head to a boxer's high cover????

Now, I would be willing to go along with the idea that the first embodies the concept of moving the upper body and being evasive, and the second embodies the concept of clearing a high line attack....but the form in which those concepts are being expressed in Sean's video are straight from western boxing. Otherwise, when he needed to evade that high kick, why didn't he just bend over straight at the waist to get out of the way? When a high punch came towards his head, why didn't he just fling his arm up in a big circle to clear it?

I think it is somewhat dishonest to show things that were obviously borrowed from western boxing, but since they loosely follow something you see as a concept in your form you say they have always been part of WSLVT and refuse to give any credit to WB for the way you express those concepts. Again, pretty pathetic!

 

[KPM]

Drawing upon the concepts embodied in the forms, Pin Sun Wing Chun comes closer than WSLVT. In the Pin Sun "Siu Lim Tao" San Sik there is a motion called "Sao Sau" or "cover hand" that is the Tun Sau pulled all the way back towards the head. It is meant to deflect a strong force past the head, but the ending position is almost the same as a boxing high cover. In the "Dai Lim Tao" San Sik there is a motion that is withdrawing the Tun Sao on the low-line that ends with the elbow tucked against the flank...just like a boxing "low cover." In the "Wien Wan Yiu" or "Life after death" San Sik originally it was the same motion as that "bend at the waist and fling the arms overhead" section of the Ip Man Biu Gee form (and yes, I have learned the Ip Man Biu Gee and the TWC Biu Gee form in the past as well as the Pin Sun San Sik equivalents!). But Sifu Mui changed that San Sik and made it an actual boxer's bob & weave....because he recognized that it was a better expression of the concept of being evasive. But...he clearly points out that he has changed it and for that reason. He never claims that the actual "bob & weave" motion was always part of Pin Sun!

So I could take my Pin Sun Wing Chun background, do my western boxing and tell people...."See this high cover?.....this low cover?.....this evasive bob & weave?.....those aren't boxing....those come from Pin Sun!" But I don't. Because that would be dishonest. Instead I point out how the concepts are very similar and cross-over well. But I don't try to pass off those boxing motions as "pure" Pin Sun Wing Chun.

 

[LFJ]

So you equate bending directly forward at the waist with knees practically straight and looking at the ground with a boxer's duck and bob & weave???? And you equate the flinging the arms overhead in a big circle that come nowhere close to the side the head to a boxer's high cover????

Not at all. In fact, I said it's nothing like WB, and you have clearly not been taught VT.

the form in which those concepts are being expressed in Sean's video are straight from western boxing.

Just like the dang-geuk in CK is "straight from" Muay Thai because they happen to have a higher oblique kick?

Which of the dozens of Chinese, Japanese, Thai, etc. styles did VT get the low oblique kick "straight from"?

You are just ignorant of VT, and martial arts in general.
You only had a few lessons when you travelled here and there.

So, of course, whenever you see something familiar to boxing you'll say hey, that's straight up boxing! But, you don't realize it's just natural instinct even to the untrained, and part of dozens of MA styles.

Otherwise, when he needed to evade that high kick, why didn't he just bend over straight at the waist to get out of the way? When a high punch came towards his head, why didn't he just fling his arm up in a big circle to clear it?

Because he's not an idiot and knows how to use VT...

I think it is somewhat dishonest to show things that were obviously borrowed from western boxing, but since they loosely follow something you see as a concept in your form you say they have always been part of WSLVT and refuse to give any credit to WB for the way you express those concepts.

You have not even learned Biu-ji in any lineage, much less WSLVT, so what experience are you speaking from?

 

[geezer]

I think it is somewhat dishonest to show things that were obviously borrowed from western boxing, but since they loosely follow something you see as a concept in your form you say they have always been part of WSLVT and refuse to give any credit to WB for the way you express those concepts. Again, pretty pathetic!

Continuing in kind to use terms like "dishonest" and "pathetic" does nothing to further this discussion.

Perhaps you should try irony instead, like for example: "Yes, indeed, I can certainly see how the flexibility trained in the final, forward-bending movement in Biu Tze form would apply here. ...After all it must take incredible flexibility of mind to equate what appears exactly like a boxer's bob, using a knee-bending movement, with the forward waist-bend from Biu Tze!!!"

On the other hand, I am happy just to see the reasoning behind LFJ's argument. I'm not here to convince anyone else, or to be convinced by anyone else of anything. I just like exchanging information and ideas. I gave up always being right nearly 30 years ago when I got married.

 

[LFJ]

In the Pin Sun "Siu Lim Tao" San Sik there is a motion called "Sao Sau" or "cover hand" that is the Tun Sau pulled all the way back towards the head. It is meant to deflect a strong force past the head, but the ending position is almost the same as a boxing high cover.

There's a reason this idea is not part of SNT or CK, but BJ.

 

[LFJ]

Drawing upon the concepts embodied in the forms, Pin Sun Wing Chun comes closer than WSLVT.

Let's remember, you have 0 experience or knowledge of WSLVT, not even the first thing about it.

 

[LFJ]

Perhaps you should try irony instead, like for example: "Yes, indeed, I can certainly see how the flexibility trained in the final, forward-bending movement in Biu Tze form would apply here. ...After all it must take incredible flexibility of mind to equate what appears exactly like a boxer's bob, using a knee-bending movement, with the forward waist-bend from Biu Tze!!!"

It's not done with straight legs, and it's not done to bob underneath punches at close range like boxers, either.

He ducked a long-range kick when cornered in emergency. So? He's not allowed to bend his knees to avoid the kick beyond a certain degree determined by KPM or it's not VT?

Even an untrained person would have ducked similarly.
Boxing gets to claim natural instinct as their invention?

 

[KPM]

Not at all. In fact, I said it's nothing like WB, and you have clearly not been taught VT.

---So you think the bobbing & weaving and high covers that Sean's student was doing in that clip "is nothing like boxing"????



Just like the dang-geuk in CK is "straight from" Muay Thai because they happen to have a higher oblique kick?

----I never said that. The only comment I made was that Jon Jone's oblique kick was straight out of Savate.


You are just ignorant of VT, and martial arts in general.
You only had a few lessons when you travelled here and there.

---More character assassination because you can't come up with anything else to back up what you believe? More "attack the messenger" since you can't negate the message?



You have not even learned Biu-ji in any lineage, much less WSLVT, so what experience are you speaking from?

---I just posted above that I have learned both the Ip Man Biu Gee form and the TWC Biu Gee form and the Pin Sun equivalent San Sik. Do you have trouble reading?

 

[KPM]

It's not done with straight legs, and it's not done to bob underneath punches at close range like boxers, either.

He ducked a long-range kick when cornered in emergency. So? He's not allowed to bend his knees to avoid the kick beyond a certain degree determined by KPM or it's not VT?

Even an untrained person would have ducked similarly.
Boxing gets to claim natural instinct as their invention?

Geez! The guy bent his knees to squat down, bent forward over his lead leg with his hands close in covering his face, did a weave to the outside and then hopped away....just like a boxer!!!! An "untrained" person would not do that! A person with knowledge of the Biu Gee form would not do that....unless he had seen it in boxing, recognized that it corresponded with concepts from the BG form and decided to use it! But to do that and not give boxing credit as the inspiration...to claim that it is "pure" WSLVT....is just plain dishonest! I don't know how else to describe it.

 

[Juany118]

Continuing in kind to use terms like "dishonest" and "pathetic" does nothing to further this discussion.

Perhaps you should try irony instead, like for example: "Yes, indeed, I can certainly see how the flexibility trained in the final, forward-bending movement in Biu Tze form would apply here. ...After all it must take incredible flexibility of mind to equate what appears exactly like a boxer's bob, using a knee-bending movement, with the forward waist-bend from Biu Tze!!!"

On the other hand, I am happy just to see the reasoning behind LFJ's argument. I'm not here to convince anyone else, or to be convinced by anyone else of anything. I just like exchanging information and ideas. I gave up always being right nearly 30 years ago when I got married.

I think LfJ's point is simply that one needs to make sure we don't get trapped in looking at the forms and drills and say "this is how you fight" because that isn't true of any combat art. If it was you would see boxers punching like they do when they work the speed bag. You need to take the attributes the forms and drills impart and then spar. In sparring that means there may be a time where you duck or bob because you don't successfully intercept an attack.

I also think sometimes people take the forms to literally, on all sides. When this happens tends to of course be when it is convenient to an argument however. Biu Jee is, to my learning, a form that demonstrates not only short range power but how to recover from mistakes. The point being that you will fail and you will have to do things that aren't necessarily WC if you were to look only at SLT and CK. So maybe it's not a matter of a technique in Biu Jee being used to recover from a mistake, rather the simple fact that through Biu Jee he has realized there are times you just need to recover and don't sweat the fact that it isn't WC because it's the recovery that matters more?

 

[drop bear]

What are you talking about?

In that post, I was only discussing one sparring bout in that video that contained nothing but VT.

The other clips in the video showed grappling, which is cross-training, not gap-filling for missing striking fundamentals.

Looking at that video it seems the VT route and the boxing route almost leads to the same place anyway.

I can see now why WC and boxing is the mix they are going for.

Actually considering the similarities I am surprised VT does not cross train with boxers to improve their striking style.

 

[Juany118]

Looking at that video it seems the VT route and the boxing route almost leads to the same place anyway.

I can see now why WC and boxing is the mix they are going for.

Actually considering the similarities I am surprised VT does not cross train with boxers to improve their striking style.

I would suspect because they feel it unnecessary. If I remember my lineage history right WSL came to VT/WC from Western Boxing. So it would not be illogical to believe that what is good from western boxing is already in WSLVT. /Shrug.

 

[drop bear]

I would suspect because they feel it unnecessary. If I remember my lineage history right WSL came to VT/WC from Western Boxing. So it would not be illogical to believe that what is good from western boxing is already in WSLVT. /Shrug.

But from when and from who? There are some bloody good boxers out there. Which is expertise VT could seriously benefit from.

Exactly how they are cross training with grappling.