What is the purpose of a Taekwondo form?

[Earl Weiss]

If we're going to go back several generations of forms, we might as well just ignore Karate and go back to the Kung Fu forms. We'll get just about as good an answer out of those than we will out of the Kata that are a few arrangements behind the Poomse.



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Very true. General Choi references the Shorin and Shri systems as being the roots, and Shorin was the Okiawin erivation of Shorei. The book "Bubishi" Bible of Karate, is manly focused on Chinese origins.

 

[Earl Weiss]

So you're saying President Rhee should be considered the father of TKD?

No, he was more like a "Matchmaker." A motivating force. He selected the "Father" the government provided the resources. To Dave B. You can keep using the term "Father" It is a difference of perspective. The KKW party line iit was some sort of Group effort. This was part of the KKW / Government genius. Without having anyone individual in control or getting most of the credit the KKW and the government could maintain control.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I'm having trouble visualizing that.


?

Not a KKW guy but I teach an application like this Face opponent and have them grab both lapels . Use one of your arms going down and the other going up like a scissor block motion cracking down with your forearm onto their same side forearm while cracking up with the other. Helps if you step straight back while you do this A swift kick to the shin before you do it can help more. An interesting aspect of the brain and this technique is the difficulty to resist the forces moving in opposite directions on each arm . Try it.

 

[dvcochran]

Actually, I think that would be Keumgang Arae Makki (Diamond Low Block), to differentiate it from Keumgang Momtong Makki (Diamond Middle Block) such as is taught in Palgwae 4. What skribs is describing is Santeulmakki (Mountain Block).

Agree, but I do not think I have ever heard them specifically separated. I have heard the one block called a middle block before but have never really understood that. It is over your head so why is it not a high block, unless it considers the motion as you raise the arm up in front of your body?

 

[Dirty Dog]

Agree, but I do not think I have ever heard them specifically separated. I have heard the one block called a middle block before but have never really understood that. It is over your head so why is it not a high block, unless it considers the motion as you raise the arm up in front of your body?

The diamond block can be middle or low.

Diamond Middle Block (the students left arm is a little low in this picture...)


Diamond Low Block


Admittedly, these blocks are really just a combination of a high block and outside middle or low block. Two simultaneous blocks, rather than a unique block. But it's convenient to have a specific name for the combination.

 

[Earl Weiss]

The diamond block can be middle or low.

Diamond Middle Block (the students left arm is a little low in this picture...)
View attachment 21929

Admittedly, these blocks are really just a combination of a high block and outside middle or low block. Two simultaneous blocks, rather than a unique block. But it's convenient to have a specific name for the combination.

Interesting history on what you call Diamond middle Block. Chang Hon term is Twin Outer forearm Block. In the Chang Hon system texts 1983 and later the chamber is with the forearms crossed at the chest with the lead arm motion imitating that of a middle (top of fist shoulder level) outer forearm block, and top arm rising outer forerarm block,. This was different in the 1972 text and earlier and how the CDK people did it which was to have both fists near the rear hip moving in a diagonal fashion to the final position. This changes the purpose / application to defending 2 different types of Attacks, one more or less traveling toward you in a horizontal fashion intercepted by the lead arm and the top arm intercepting a downward type attack from an application perhaps were the lead arm intercepts an attack and the top arm being an attack like an overhand punch. .

 

[Bruce7]

Exactly. They're written by ITF people from an ITF perspective. The suggestion that General Choi was the motivating force behind the unification movement, is, frankly, ridiculous.
The motivating force behind the unification movement was the Korean government saying 'you guys should get together and work out a Korean art, instead of teaching renamed Japanese stuff.' That happened in 1952. Three years before General Choi would found the Oh Do Kwan.
The five orignal Kwan were the Chung Do Kwan, Sung Moo Kwan, Moo Duk Kwan, Jido Kwan and Chang Moo Kwan. General Choi was (if memory serves) a Chung Do Kwan student at the time.
The Han Moo Kwan, Oh Do Kwan (which General Choi had, by then, founded), Kang Duk Kwan and Jung Do Kwan came around later.
The unified art was original called Tae Soo Do, although Tae Kwon Do was also considered and, eventually, adopted.
General Choi didn't like how the unification was being handled, so he left the KTA and founded the ITF. The ITF descended from those who left the KTA with General Choi.
He wasn't the only one, of course. GM Hwang, for example, left even earlier and taught Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan, and then eventually changed the name to Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan. TSD and SBD schools are descended from students who left the unification with GM Hwang. TKD MDK schools (such as ours) are descended from GM LEE, Kang Ik and those others who stayed with the KTA after GM Hwang left.



Lee Won Kuk was the founder of the Chung Do Kwan, the first Kwan founded after the liberation of Korean from Japanese occupation.

There were many many people involved in the unification efforts, and to my knowledge there is no complete listing. This is understandable, given how many groups and individuals joined and then left, and given that the efforts were pretty effectively derailed by the Korean War.



Doubtful. Like many of the founders, his history is clouded. For example, GM Hwang claimed to have studied Tae Kyon as a child. This is extremely doubtful, given the near-total destruction of Korean culture at that time. His training was primarily Chinese, specifically Kuk Sool. His system was originally called Hwa Soo Do, but this has changed several times, first to Tang Soo Do, then to Tae Soo Do (during the unification), then back to Tang Soo Do, then Soo Bahk Do.



Good luck with that. There are not a lot of good records about the early days. And those that exist do tend to be from very specific viewpoints.
But it's safe to say that no one person can claim to be "the" father of TKD.

It seems you have been around for a long time and know a lot.
Could you tell me who taught Hwang Sae Jin (Jack Hwang)
Please, Information seem to be hard to find.

 

[DaveB]

Interesting history on what you call Diamond middle Block. Chang Hon term is Twin Outer forearm Block. In the Chang Hon system texts 1983 and later the chamber is with the forearms crossed at the chest with the lead arm motion imitating that of a middle (top of fist shoulder level) outer forearm block, and top arm rising outer forerarm block,. This was different in the 1972 text and earlier and how the CDK people did it which was to have both fists near the rear hip moving in a diagonal fashion to the final position. This changes the purpose / application to defending 2 different types of Attacks, one more or less traveling toward you in a horizontal fashion intercepted by the lead arm and the top arm intercepting a downward type attack from an application perhaps were the lead arm intercepts an attack and the top arm being an attack like an overhand punch. .

No techniques exist for the purpose of blocking attacks from different origins. That is one of the signatures of post-Okinawa karate: where almost every movement was interpreted as a block or a strike.

The movement your looking at is taken from the first technique of the first Pinan kata (second Hiean kata).

The opponent is attacking from straight in front of you as you are in ready stance.

 

[Earl Weiss]

No techniques exist for the purpose of blocking attacks from different origins. That is one of the signatures of post-Okinawa karate: where almost every movement was interpreted as a block or a strike.

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I am confused by your post.
You state "No techniques exist for the purpose of blocking attacks from different origins"
So, this seems to indicate no techniques is for blocking and then you state:
" That is one of the signatures of post-Okinawa karate: where almost every movement was interpreted as a block or a strike."
Do you mean to state any individual technique can be a block or a strike? Something else?

"Before I learned the art, a punch was just a punch, and a kick, just a kick.
After I learned the art, a punch was no longer a punch, a kick, no longer a kick.
Now that I understand the art, a punch is just a punch and a kick is just a kick."
-- Bruce Lee

 

[Dirty Dog]

Interesting history on what you call Diamond middle Block. Chang Hon term is Twin Outer forearm Block. In the Chang Hon system texts 1983 and later the chamber is with the forearms crossed at the chest with the lead arm motion imitating that of a middle (top of fist shoulder level) outer forearm block, and top arm rising outer forerarm block,. This was different in the 1972 text and earlier and how the CDK people did it which was to have both fists near the rear hip moving in a diagonal fashion to the final position. This changes the purpose / application to defending 2 different types of Attacks, one more or less traveling toward you in a horizontal fashion intercepted by the lead arm and the top arm intercepting a downward type attack from an application perhaps were the lead arm intercepts an attack and the top arm being an attack like an overhand punch. .

We teach the chamber (as best I can tell from words only...) in much the same manner as the CDK. As far as application goes, we teach it both as attack and block.

It seems you have been around for a long time and know a lot.
Could you tell me who taught Hwang Sae Jin (Jack Hwang)
Please, Information seem to be hard to find.

I honestly don't have any idea. But I can ask around, and if I can find any information I will forward it to you.

 

[DaveB]

I am confused by your post.
You state "No techniques exist for the purpose of blocking attacks from different origins"
So, this seems to indicate no techniques is for blocking and then you state:
" That is one of the signatures of post-Okinawa karate: where almost every movement was interpreted as a block or a strike."
Do you mean to state any individual technique can be a block or a strike? Something else?

"Before I learned the art, a punch was just a punch, and a kick, just a kick.
After I learned the art, a punch was no longer a punch, a kick, no longer a kick.
Now that I understand the art, a punch is just a punch and a kick is just a kick."
-- Bruce Lee

Good quote, Mr Lee was dead right.

I mean if a move looks like you are doing two blocks at once, you can be absolutely sure you are not meant to be blocking two different attacks from two different people that happen to have occurred simultaneously.

Such interpretations were place holders, common in early Japanese karate because teaching karate was for building character not for fighting.

Many of the techniques in karate kata have other uses, but during this period they were only taught as blocks.

A great example is the reinforced block being interpreted as a regular middle section forearm block just done with two hands. No reason why you suddenly need two hands against the same punch you just used one to defend from.
In actuality the movement has other uses, other reasons for its inclusion at that point in the form than duplicating the effect of another technique but less efficiently.

 

[Dirty Dog]

It seems you have been around for a long time and know a lot.
Could you tell me who taught Hwang Sae Jin (Jack Hwang)
Please, Information seem to be hard to find.

I asked my Kwan Jang Nim. He knew GM Hwang, and says he was one of the pioneers of TKD MDK in America, but he does not know who his specific teacher(s) were. I'm sorry to say that he also tells me GM Hwang died a few years ago, in OK.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Having read the the posts I would like to offer a slightly different perspective I alluded to but not really addressed on this board. The forms teach you how to move. Any stated purpose is a tool to hep you understand the motion. Once you can perform the motion in an efficient, powerful, well balanced manner, then how you apply it or morph it for any particular application is limited only by practical concerns, (We cannot discount aesthetic or symbolic meanings which may have been purposefuly included) So, the purpose is to teach you how to move. This is not a unique perspective. The original Karate Kid movies "Wax on Wax Off" etc. had the student learn how to move . Once this was learned he was taught applications. So, while the initial learning can focus on any particular stated application to facilitate learning, continuing to focus on any particular application be it stated, alternative, hidden or lost is like "Focusing on the finger. "
“Its like a finger pointing away to the moon. Don't concentrate on the finger or you will miss all that heavenly glory.”

― Bruce Lee,

 

[Bruce7]

I asked my Kwan Jang Nim. He knew GM Hwang, and says he was one of the pioneers of TKD MDK in America, but he does not know who his specific teacher(s) were. I'm sorry to say that he also tells me GM Hwang died a few years ago, in OK.

Thank you for your help.

I am guessing his early teachers were Japanese since he was born in 1931 and knew Karate and Judo.
Since I can not find information on his teachers in Korea, I am guessing he may have learn MDK in the Army.
Jack Hwang served as an instructor and military officer in the South Korean Army and fought for the freedom of his country along with the American soldiers during the Korean war. He was a guerrilla fighter and was sent behind enemy lines in North Korea to gather intelligence. During several of these missions some of the American soldiers who were lost or separated from their regiment were directed or led to safety by Jack Hwang. Jack Hwang developed his fighting techniques from years of difficult training and military service.

 

[Balrog]

So I have two follow-up questions for you (and maybe you're not using these techniques in ATA forms).

1. Can you elaborate on how tension moves improve timing?

Both hands have to move in time with each other and end movement at exactly the same time. A lot of our tension moves are also done in a one-legged stance, which improves balance; they're a lot harder to get that timing on as a result.

2. Does ATA have double-blocks? What I mean by this is, for example, we have in our forms:

• An outside block to the side with one hand and a high block with the other. (Taebaek step 9 or 14-2)
• A down block to the side with one hand and a high block with the other. (Keumgang step 8, 15, 18, and 25)
• An inside block and outside block to the sides (Mountain Block)
• A down block and outside block at the same time (Scissor block, Taebaek steps 23 and 25)

http://www.taekwondobible.com/trainings/poomsae/Keumgang.html
http://www.taekwondobible.com/trainings/poomsae/taebaek.html
Mountain Block

We have similar blocks.
For example, this is SWMBO (She Who Must Be Obeyed) performing what we call a square block in an X-stance. It's an outer forearm block combined with a high block.

Would you see a purpose to these techniques?

A functional purpose? Probably not. It would be a rare situation indeed where one would have to block two simultaneous attacks in real life. However, correct execution of these techniques improves our overall performance and capability. Anything that challenges us like that will.

I may have to steal this.

Feel free. I got it from one of our Chief Master at a sparring fundamentals seminar.

 

[Balrog]

.<snip> ultimately dispatch instructors throughout the world to teach the system, use his military travels to recruit Korean instructors in other parts of the world (Jhoon Rhee being one of the noteables) to adopt the name TKD and teach the system. (HU Lee and He Il Cho among others)

An interesting side note. When H. U. Lee immigrated to the USA and later founded the ATA, he was teaching the Chang Hon forms that he learned from General Choi. His notes that he took while training with General Choi are in the ATA Headquarters museum.

Lee started working on his own style in the early 1980s, and introduce the first three forms of the Songahm style at the instructor camp in 1983.

 

[Earl Weiss]

As stated by GM Vitale "At some point a demonstration of Korean Karate was performed for the 1st ROK President (Rhee) in 1954. This provided the motivation for a new name that would not be connected to Japan, like Tang Soo Do or Kong Soo Do. By this time, the Daejon area was where the 29th Infantry “Fist” Division was located. This was where Taekwon-Do was born, according to the new name being conceived and put forth initially, as well as the 1st 2 Korean TKD Patterns, Hwa-Rang and Chung-Moo were created!"'

 

[Earl Weiss]

An interesting side note. When H. U. Lee immigrated to the USA and later founded the ATA, he was teaching the Chang Hon forms that he learned from General Choi. His notes that he took while training with General Choi are in the ATA Headquarters museum.

Lee started working on his own style in the early 1980s, and introduce the first three forms of the Songahm style at the instructor camp in 1983.

A side note to the side note. HU Lee and General Choi must have remained in close contact. I have a a video from NK (General Choi us ke a copy of his copy) where HU Lee took an ATA group for a demo (Which was followed by the NK demo team) and HU Lee and General Choi are watching the demo together.

 

[Balrog]

A side note to the side note. HU Lee and General Choi must have remained in close contact. I have a a video from NK (General Choi us ke a copy of his copy) where HU Lee took an ATA group for a demo (Which was followed by the NK demo team) and HU Lee and General Choi are watching the demo together.

I would love to have a copy of that!

 

[andyjeffries]

Well, I have a problem with saying teaching Palgwes instead of Taegeuks is a "lower standard." We have a similar amount of forms, with similar difficulty to the Taegeuks, and we have a lot on the curriculum that are not on the Taegeuks.

Just to clarify, I wasn't saying that Palgwae are a lower standard, I was making a separate remark about an experience I had when the Kukkiwon's reply was basically "just mind your own business" when asked about other dojangs doing things differently or having different standards.

Palgwae are acknowledged by the creators of them to be deprecated and aren't current official curriculum, but I'm not commenting on their relative difficulty in performing.