What would a form look like if it taught WT sparring techniques?

[dvcochran]

Some of those elements, yeah.

The issue I have with that type of form is that it seems to be all over the place. Like if you were to take a song where the verse alternates between Hip Hop and Country, and the Chorus goes back and forth between Metal and Pop. Those forms show some traditional punching styles, some demonstration-type tricking kicks, and some sparring tactics. It's all over the place! And it all just looks kind of random to me. I guess I understand it for the sake of competition (show a little bit of everything TKD can bring) but it doesn't really make sense to me.

As to the Taegeuks/Palgwes...don't get me wrong. I like those forms. In fact, if I had a choice of focusing on the style of combat in the forms (especially Palgwe) and going for deeper stances and strong hand strikes with a few kicks thrown in, vs. going for the advanced kicking that TKD does, I'd go for the forms and that style of fighting. I like learning both, and I really like the advanced kicks. This is why this was a thought exercise on how to build an entire form around kicks.

.

I like the "all over" style of the form. Much more realistic. But I agree with you; what most people don't understand and, apparently are not being taught, is that forms teach the fundamentals. Especially the traditional forms like the Palgwe's are not flashly. They are teaching the high percentage moves that everyone learning the art/style need to know.
I really like the new form. It has a place in most TKD curriculum. Not everyone is going to be able to do it well and that should be ok. Nothing wrong with setting the bar high.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Well, once you create the forms, you are on the way to creating your own kukkiwon offshoot!

 

[Buka]

Kind of. But (forgive my ignorance of boxing) I didn't think shadow boxing was a prescribed set of movements like a kata. It also doesn't fit into the secondary goal I had of trying to make it at least resemble a Taekwondo form.

Correct, shadow boxing is not a prescribed set of movements.

Think about that in your thought experiment.

 

[_Simon_]

I'd put this out of my mind for a little while because things have been hectic lately, but it's popped back into my head again. I was thinking about how I would do the steps and kicks.

For example, if I were to do this like in sparring, a defensive roundhouse kick might feature a leap/slide back with a pop jumping roundhouse kick. This would be the "practical" version of the form.

Or there would be a more stylized version, which would keep similar pace to the old Taekwondo style. In this version, I might step back with one leg, and then chamber the other leg and roundhouse kick.

Both options would feature a movement backwards, and a roundhouse kick with the leg that started as the rear leg. If you capture a few frames (as you would in a printed version of the techniques) they might look almost the same.

---

The other thing I've been thinking about is how you would do a curriculum with this idea. Let's say that instead of just looking at one form, we look at doing five forms. There's a few ways I can see doing this:

• Each form dedicated to a different kick, i.e. roundhouse kick, back kick, hook kick, axe kick, and spinning kicks.
• Each form dedicated to a style of fighting, i.e. aggressive, defensive, feints, clinching, and punching.
• Each form dedicated to a type of movement, i.e. sideways movements, straight movements, switches, turns
• Each form dedicated to a range of movement, i.e. clinch, headshot range, kicking range, skipping range, long range.

Then of course I can do these across a couple different styles. So I could have something like:

1. A form which primarily uses roundhouse kicks, side kicks/teeps, back kicks, and feints with sideways and backward movements to cover a defensive style or how to keep your opponent at range
2. A form which primarily uses spinning kicks, repeating kicks, and foot switches to give balance and control.
3. A form which uses a combination of clinching techniques, punches, and head kicks to cover a close-range aggressive style, or the tools against someone with that kind of style
4. A form focused on jumping kicks and different ways you can jump when doing kicks. (The focus would be on sliding kicks, drag kicks, pop kicks, and bicycle kicks, not on fancy jumping kicks like 540s). To some degree, this would help reinforce the defensiveness of the first form, but would also teach aggressive techniques to close distance.
5. A form which focuses more on hand and head motions to have an effective guard while kicking.

Actually...I kind of like that.

Love the ideas mate . A matter of condensing specific sparring principles into forms, and yep I think that's a great idea to break it down like that so that each form is very specific with an intention. Although it would make for a LOT of forms hehe! But that's beauty of it, and you can still combine certain related ideas into the one form, but ideas that can relate to each other.

 

[dvcochran]

Kind of. But (forgive my ignorance of boxing) I didn't think shadow boxing was a prescribed set of movements like a kata. It also doesn't fit into the secondary goal I had of trying to make it at least resemble a Taekwondo form.

That sounds like you are putting it back in the box. e.g. Taeguek and Palgwe poomse.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I'd put this out of my mind for a little while because things have been hectic lately, but it's popped back into my head again. I was thinking about how I would do the steps and kicks.

For example, if I were to do this like in sparring, a defensive roundhouse kick might feature a leap/slide back with a pop jumping roundhouse kick. This would be the "practical" version of the form.

Or there would be a more stylized version, which would keep similar pace to the old Taekwondo style. In this version, I might step back with one leg, and then chamber the other leg and roundhouse kick.

Both options would feature a movement backwards, and a roundhouse kick with the leg that started as the rear leg. If you capture a few frames (as you would in a printed version of the techniques) they might look almost the same.

---

The other thing I've been thinking about is how you would do a curriculum with this idea. Let's say that instead of just looking at one form, we look at doing five forms. There's a few ways I can see doing this:

• Each form dedicated to a different kick, i.e. roundhouse kick, back kick, hook kick, axe kick, and spinning kicks.
• Each form dedicated to a style of fighting, i.e. aggressive, defensive, feints, clinching, and punching.
• Each form dedicated to a type of movement, i.e. sideways movements, straight movements, switches, turns
• Each form dedicated to a range of movement, i.e. clinch, headshot range, kicking range, skipping range, long range.

Then of course I can do these across a couple different styles. So I could have something like:

1. A form which primarily uses roundhouse kicks, side kicks/teeps, back kicks, and feints with sideways and backward movements to cover a defensive style or how to keep your opponent at range
2. A form which primarily uses spinning kicks, repeating kicks, and foot switches to give balance and control.
3. A form which uses a combination of clinching techniques, punches, and head kicks to cover a close-range aggressive style, or the tools against someone with that kind of style
4. A form focused on jumping kicks and different ways you can jump when doing kicks. (The focus would be on sliding kicks, drag kicks, pop kicks, and bicycle kicks, not on fancy jumping kicks like 540s). To some degree, this would help reinforce the defensiveness of the first form, but would also teach aggressive techniques to close distance.
5. A form which focuses more on hand and head motions to have an effective guard while kicking.

Actually...I kind of like that.

I clicked like on this only because theres no "love" option. Even if you do this just for yourself, it would be an amazing exercise and new practice material for the future. And, of course, you could incorporate into your own curriculum if you end up with your own school in the future.

 

[skribs]

Correct, shadow boxing is not a prescribed set of movements.

Think about that in your thought experiment.

I don't think you understand the experiment. The experiment is to take those types of drills we do for sparring and put them into a poomsae.

That sounds like you are putting it back in the box. e.g. Taeguek and Palgwe poomse.

In the OP I said that's what I was trying to do. Take the sparring techniques and put them into a poomsae.

 

[skribs]

Well, once you create the forms, you are on the way to creating your own kukkiwon offshoot!

Probably not. If I was going to make an unaffiliated Taekwondo school, I would stick with the traditional forms and expand more on their applications, instead of going with the WT sparring style and doing forms based on those.

I clicked like on this only because theres no "love" option. Even if you do this just for yourself, it would be an amazing exercise and new practice material for the future. And, of course, you could incorporate into your own curriculum if you end up with your own school in the future.

It is mostly for me. Although, my lessons are starting to slow down in terms of the pace I learn new things, so I might take some time to flesh these ideas out. I think I will do these, if only because some of them will require me to think some things through or learn some new tricks and tactics. We don't practice much with the clinch at my school, there's a guy who is really good with his hands in sparring and I want to pick his brain, and it will be good to think through some of the stuff I do know pretty well in order to classify it better.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Probably not. If I was going to make an unaffiliated Taekwondo school, I would stick with the traditional forms and expand more on their applications, instead of going with the WT sparring style and doing forms based on those.



It is mostly for me. Although, my lessons are starting to slow down in terms of the pace I learn new things, so I might take some time to flesh these ideas out. I think I will do these, if only because some of them will require me to think some things through or learn some new tricks and tactics. We don't practice much with the clinch at my school, there's a guy who is really good with his hands in sparring and I want to pick his brain, and it will be good to think through some of the stuff I do know pretty well in order to classify it better.

Meant to add in, if you create them and youre willing to, a video would be awesome

 

[dvcochran]

I don't think you understand the experiment. The experiment is to take those types of drills we do for sparring and put them into a poomsae.



In the OP I said that's what I was trying to do. Take the sparring techniques and put them into a poomsae.

Right, so I would not expect it to look anything like a traditional poomsae.

 

[skribs]

Meant to add in, if you create them and youre willing to, a video would be awesome

I definitely plan on that.

 

[Buka]

I don't think you understand the experiment. The experiment is to take those types of drills we do for sparring and put them into a poomsae.



In the OP I said that's what I was trying to do. Take the sparring techniques and put them into a poomsae.

 

[Buka]

I think I understand the experiment, Maybe you should explore the plural of poomsae.

 

[Buka]

Correct, shadow boxing is not a prescribed set of movements.

Think about that in your thought experiment.

I admit I'm just busting balls now, but what do you disagree with, that shadow boxing isn't a prescribed set of movements, or that you should consider a suggestion in a thought experiment?

 

[Dirty Dog]

I think I understand the experiment, Maybe you should explore the plural of poomsae.

That would actually be quite a feat, since Korean doesn't pluralize nouns. For example, "saram" can mean "person" or "people" depending on the context.

 

[skribs]

I admit I'm just busting balls now, but what do you disagree with, that shadow boxing isn't a prescribed set of movements, or that you should consider a suggestion in a thought experiment?

That your suggestion has any relevance to the thought experiment.

My experiment: can I take sparring drills and make a poomsae?
Your suggestion: you can do sparring drills.

Yes. I know I can do sparring drills. That's not the point. In fact, the starting point of this thought experiment is those sparring drills. So you're literally telling me that my thought experiment should consider something that's already in the experiment.

It would be like if I were to do an experiment on the effects of relative humidity and mold growth, and you told me I would need to consider the amount of moisture in the air.

 

[Metal]

I just watched a video of the form. Beautiful and impressive. Definitely a high level form. I think it would be a great addition to most TKD curriculum. A great evolution to modern practice. I am speaking from an old guys perspective, but I think only about 25% BB's could pull it off even moderately. I suppose the drills we do should make it easier though.

Yeah, it's a great Poomsae, but according to the plans of the Kukkiwon this is supposed to be the just for the under 18 years division. So, not all black belts need to do it. Instructors will need to learn it though in order to teach it... ^^

For anyone who wants to check it out:

The other age division Competition Poomsae also have elements that most of the leisure sports Taekwondoin (that includes me) won't be able to pull off.

 

[skribs]

That would actually be quite a feat, since Korean doesn't pluralize nouns. For example, "saram" can mean "person" or "people" depending on the context.

Thank you! I don't know enough about the Korean language to have a good response here.

But I get the sense that Buka just doesn't like my thought experiment and is raining on my parade instead of providing actual advice.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Thank you! I don't know enough about the Korean language to have a good response here.

But I get the sense that Buka just doesn't like my thought experiment and is raining on my parade instead of providing actual advice.

Or he was offering advice on how to conceptualize it. It seemed relevant to me, and ive never seen him trying to rain on someones parade here

 

[Buka]

Thank you! I don't know enough about the Korean language to have a good response here.

But I get the sense that Buka just doesn't like my thought experiment and is raining on my parade instead of providing actual advice.

That couldn't be further from the truth, actually I love your experiment. Just trying to stimulate your thought process.