What is the purpose of a Taekwondo form?

[pdg]

But, I think that additionally, the instructor needs to open the door for the student to see that there is stuff to discover beyond the first possible application.

That's why I said "to help you find your own answers".

As above - plant a seed, if it sprouts help it grow.

 

[Earl Weiss]

We are each taught a down block. While each may have slight differences the purpose is the same. .

Is it? Some consider it a "Block" for a linear attack directed to the same side lower abdomen. Some may say it's only used against a kick. Some my say it could also be used if an opponent dropped down and was trying to punch, and I have seen other camps claim it was to release from a same side wrist grab.

 

[Earl Weiss]

. Present that as an alternative application to a 9th kup instead of "punch, block" and it'll only serve to confuse. It doesn't mean they need to practice the form more, it means they need to evolve their understanding of what is possible.

"Even a thirsty man can't drink from a Firehose."

 

[Earl Weiss]

That's why I said "to help you find your own answers".

As above - plant a seed, if it sprouts help it grow.

Yes, but how it grows depends on, if, how much, and what type of fertilizer you use. Some manure is better than others.

 

[pdg]

Yes, but how it grows depends on, if, how much, and what type of fertilizer you use. Some manure is better than others.

Too much too soon can burn a seedling though.

And some is just manure

 

[dvcochran]

Is it? Some consider it a "Block" for a linear attack directed to the same side lower abdomen. Some may say it's only used against a kick. Some my say it could also be used if an opponent dropped down and was trying to punch, and I have seen other camps claim it was to release from a same side wrist grab.

Yes, to all your examples. In the beginning it is enough to understand it is a block against, whatever, of the lower region. As a person learns and expands so can the block. General to specific.

 

[dvcochran]

I think you're misunderstanding my point really - which may be on me for my explanation, or on you for reading with preconceptions - whatever

Anyway...

That down block - yeah, sure, there's an explanation for it. There's a movement, and a chamber position, and a transition in and out of position.

It's the teacher's job to show you the movement and give you a possible application ("this is to block a snap kick").

I firmly believe it's not the teacher's job to explain why the chamber is there or it's purpose (other than "preparatory position"). Or what you can do with the lead in and lead out. Or what else you can use that "block" motion/position for.

They should be able to help you find your answers to those questions, but any answer they just hand you is no answer at all.

Memorisation comes from instruction and repetition. Learning comes from discovery.

This specific part **So, physical issues aside, the "what works for you doesn't work for someone else" is not true in forms** is only correct if your sole purpose of doing a form is to learn the form...

Case in point - I can perform a takedown using what is presented in a pattern as a "punch followed by a turn into a low block". I'm using the same movements and the same transition. Present that as an alternative application to a 9th kup instead of "punch, block" and it'll only serve to confuse. It doesn't mean they need to practice the form more, it means they need to evolve their understanding of what is possible.

firmly believe it's not the teacher's job to explain why the chamber is there or it's purpose (other than "preparatory position"). Or what you can do with the lead in and lead out. Or what else you can use that "block" motion/position for.

Disagree. We have to be on a different page. It is the teacher's most principal job to teach what the chamber and lead in/out is and how to do them. Yin Yang and all that is associated with it. It is much more elemental than you describe. For most people, we are slow to digest information in way we can process it. Finding what triggers the process people is difficult but as a teacher we have to try. I can come at the same person with the same information from different angles/perspectives and see the light come on. It takes time.

Case in point - I can perform a takedown using what is presented in a pattern as a "punch followed by a turn into a low block". I'm using the same movements and the same transition. Present that as an alternative application to a 9th kup instead of "punch, block" and it'll only serve to confuse. It doesn't mean they need to practice the form more, it means they need to evolve their understanding of what is possible.

Agree. But if the student is never taught the fundamental elements correctly how can you ever expect them to understand the takedown, how to do it and when to apply it? You are jumping several steps forward in your example.

 

[DaveB]

- My explanation of a karate technique.
- Skribs' response.

 

[dvcochran]

I mix-used a term here. Ice shelf is already floating on the ocean. So if ice shelf melts/collapses it does not really contribute to rise in sea level, but it is indicative of warming in the ocean which causes it to collapse. However, ice shelf acts as a buttress to keep the landed ice sheets from sliding into the ocean, which would contribute to sea level rise. When ice shelf collapses, it makes it easier for landed ice sheets to slip.

So when I said ice shelf above in my previous post, I should have said ice sheet.

So the prediction was way wrong. Welcome to science.

 

[skribs]

This shows the difference between passing on the system and your "personal journey".

To instruct, to be a teacher - that's where pretty much sticking to the official curriculum is good. You're passing the system to a group.

Deeper delving is a personal thing imo, it doesn't really have much of a place in normal open lessons because (as stated) they're full enough with the official stuff.

There can be crossover, you can seek further information from your instructor, and your students can do likewise with you.

If even a tenth of the stuff I personally research was covered in class I'd bet 90% of the students would leave and/or there just wouldn't be time for the fundamentals, let alone normal development. There's stuff that I've dug up that my instructors have no inkling of (and more than likely more in the other direction).

And this kinda leads into where the whole 'purpose of forms/patterns' thing comes in as well. Anything over and above what is "in the book" is for the individual to discover.

The instructor should show you the form, explain the basics of interpretation and help with your development - but not to just try to insert all the possible meanings into your head.

What works for them is unlikely to work for you, or me, and is it really possible for any one person to have all the answers anyway?

Put simply, you can't break down and decide every movement and expect a single coherent outcome - you more need to feel the movement and find where you can use it, or not. That's not something an instructor or a bunch of random internet people can do for you.

This is kind of what I was going for. I get that it's a personal journey and I can find my own meanings. But...what is the point of teaching me the moves in the form? As a teacher, what is it that the organization as a whole would want my students to get out of the forms?

When we're looking at it at this level, it's not about what my Master wants, so much as it is what the person who made the policy that every school will learn the forms that have these moves. And whether it's Taegeuks or not at my school, we follow the KKW curriculum for the black belt forms.

What I get from the forms is partially on me, partially on my Master, partially on the person that created the forms, and partially on the person telling my Master we have to teach the forms at my school. When I teach the forms to other students at my school, we've now added a 5th person in the mix. I can figure out what I get, I can ask my Master what he wants us to get, but the other pieces are what I'm asking for.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Folks, I'm going to suggest that the debate on climate change has absolutely nothing to do with this thread. If it's going to continue it needs it's own thread.

 

[Earl Weiss]

As a teacher, what is it that the organization as a whole would want my students to get out of the forms?

.

As a teacher of a system part of my job is to teach the system so the student understands the system according to what the system is intended to convey and if they go anywhere in the wold to a school that teaches the same system they will fit right in. This is not to say I cannot also teach what I disagree with and why. However, I take care not to confuse students wit too much information, particularly at the lower ranks.

 

[skribs]

As a teacher of a system part of my job is to teach the system so the student understands the system according to what the system is intended to convey and if they go anywhere in the wold to a school that teaches the same system they will fit right in. This is not to say I cannot also teach what I disagree with and why. However, I take care not to confuse students wit too much information, particularly at the lower ranks.

Hence: this thread.

 

[pdg]

understands the system according to what the system is intended to convey

Is your interpretation of what the system is intended to convey able to be defined within the confines of this particular medium (i.e. a thread on a forum)?

 

[Flying Crane]

Folks, I'm going to suggest that the debate on climate change has absolutely nothing to do with this thread. If it's going to continue it needs it's own thread.

Would it be possible to have the relevant posts split into a new thread, so we don’t lose the train of the discussion?

 

[dvcochran]

Folks, I'm going to suggest that the debate on climate change has absolutely nothing to do with this thread. If it's going to continue it needs it's own thread.

Agree. I tapped out yesterday.

 

[dvcochran]

Hence: this thread.

I'll posit a valid question relevant to this thread. What is your definition of a "system"?

 

[skribs]

I'll posit a valid question relevant to this thread. What is your definition of a "system"?

In this case, the system is whatever organization is in charge of determining the forms that are used in a large number of Taekwondo dojangs.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Is your interpretation of what the system is intended to convey able to be defined within the confines of this particular medium (i.e. a thread on a forum)?

First and foremost in my case it should not be my interpretation. I teach General Choi's system.He left us 15 Volumes for reference and video reference. So, if I teach something the student should never have to ask "Sir, you teach this and the materials show that." (This was often the case with instructors had less reference materials in the 1970'). Further, having been thru 7 instructor courses with the system founder I was able to fix close to 200 items I had misinterpreted or been taught differently. There are a few occasions where the materials may have gaps, errors and are subject to interpretations and having officiated and participated in several international events I can tell the student those infrequent occasions where different instructors do things differently. Being near O'Hare airport I get frequent visitors and transfers. Over the years these people are from more than 10 countries and numerous states, and they fit right in I asked a visitor once to watch 6 people perform a pattern and then say where they learned it - different countries / states. The visitor commented that he thought they were all my students from white belt because their technique was so similar. (Does this answer your question?)

 

[Flying Crane]

This is not meant to stir the pot. I found it a very interesting article in a weekly cattlemen's memo email. 5 Deadly Diseases Emerging from Global Warming
I have seen several times where we have received cattle from or shipped cattle to other states and they get sick. It always surprises me how a distance of say <1000 miles can have such affects but I know it is real. It is certainly believable there are unknown bacteria in ice that is 1000's of years old.

Good catch. Very interesting and potentially terrifying.