What is "American Ninjutsu"
- Thread starter Bob Hubbard
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Bester
<font color=blue><B>Grand UberSoke, Sith-jutsu Ryu
No, they have not.gmunoz said:
Kaith said "If the posted charter is inadequate, we are open to modification. Please use this thread to discuss and debate those modifications."
I believe the charter is inadequate as it excludes qualified non-Japanese, while including un-qualified pretenders.
You stated:
I am an American. If I found a Ninjutsu Style, and have Legitimate Ninjutsu Training, I can be allowed into your special club?
What is Legitimate Ninjutsu Training?
You must disqualify any lineage tracing to Ashida Kim, Frank Dux or HaHa Lung. They are proven frauds.
I have been trying to discuss and debate.
YOU have been attacking me for disagreeing with you.
I ask again. Are you able to cease your personal vendetta against me and engage in a polite discussion of the charter for this forum?
Flatlander
Grandmaster
Bester, what's up man? Seems to me that perhaps some people have become offended, and don't want to co-operate. However, from the staff discussions that I have been privy to, my understanding is thus:Bester said:
Legitimate ninjutsu training would be having trained either beneath Hatsumi, or someone else that he has qualified to teach. As you may well know, there are a few folks who's arts have evolved down their own paths, and are either excommunicated from the organisation, or no longer teach the pure art of budo taijutsu, rather, they have integrated other concepts from other sources. So they may have developed a method that is flavoured as ninjutsu, but is not pure.
Please bear in mind, this is just from stuff that I have followed in various places around here. I have no specific ninjutsu training, though my instructor does have his bb. I am uncertain as to the specific lineage, but I believe it to be Bujinkan.
Hope I was helpful, folks. :asian:
Flatlander
Grandmaster
Just to add, I don't believe this forum is intended to really be exclusive to US organisations, and is a work in progress.
If you are an American and show legitimate ninjutsu training that can be traced back to Japanese lineage, and claim not to do things as in Japan but in America, then YES, you can submit to be listed on this forum.Bester said:
THat is what the charter is meaning. How difficult is this? If one claims to do things as done in Japan then they need to submit to the Japanese Ninjutsu forum, ie., Ralph Severe Kamiyama and his system. He stipulates he does things as in Japan. He should be in JN.
Flatlander
Grandmaster
Bester, bear in mind that these guys were the focus of constant persecution whilst in the Japanese section. It is not surprising to me that they are seeing attack more often than necessary, and perhaps the agressive nature of questioning is reinforcing that perception now.Bester said:
I'm not criticizing you here, Bester. Just articulating my take. I could be wrong, or crazy. Or both, or neither. Take your pick.
:asian:
RRouuselot
Master of Arts
Enson said:like mr. miyagi?
Sorry, don't follow your meaning. Can you explain?
OP
OP
Gentlemen, please, enough. The various issues and complaints from all sides are under discussion by the admins and supermods. Due to the large number of complaints, please give us a few days to properly process them.
Please refer to the warning now stickied on this forum.
No more flaming or other abuse will be tollerated.
Please refer to the warning now stickied on this forum.
No more flaming or other abuse will be tollerated.
Bester, Dude. Good luck. There is an agenda here at work with a little cabal of kids who want this to be a place where the specious claims of their Sokey Dokeys are considered legitimate. They bring this on themselves.
If the original three "American Ninjutsu" ryuha or schools I guess, are "verified, please show work. ie show us where Hayes shihan has trained, with whom, when, for how long, rank achieved, teachers lineage. This should not be a problem. Then show the work for Tew and Bussey. Opps! Look a personal attack! I'm asking a hard question. Bwahahahhaha.
The original charter reads as such:
Although its roots are founded in rich Japanese tradition, history, and culture, American Ninjutsu has evolved into a unique marital art. Over 20 years ago certain men, having trained in Japan, brought their training experience to back to America. These men pioneered a concept that revolutionized how the American people viewed Japanese culture. The concept they shared was the art of the ninja. These men established ninjutsu schools, assimilating their acquired knowledge into their own unique interpretation of ninjutsu. Referred to as American Ninjustu, similar to its predecessor from Japan, it has evolved to accommodate the culture and needs of 21st Century America.
American Ninjutsu is not restricted by a few set Âkata, but a comprehensive art form in and of itself. It embodies a variety of martial arts technique including: taijutsu (unarmed combat), kenjutsu, shurikenjutsu, metsubishi, koppojustu, stealth, bojutsu, evasion, war tactics, combat strategy, and invisibility. Not bound by traditionalism, it allows the integration of current methodologies, technique, and weaponry that are applicable to the perils of modern day society.
American Ninjutsu is recognized as having proof of an American founder with legitimate ninjutsu training. The schools currently recognized globally as teaching American Ninjutsu are: To-Shin Do (SKH Quest Centers), Rick TewÂs Martial Science (Tew Ryu Ninjutsu), and RBWI (Robert BusseyÂs schools and affiliated students). Any other school claiming to teach American Ninjutsu can show their qualifications as stated above."
This charter outlines the rough direction of this forum. It will grow and change as you our members guide this sections continued direction."
End quote.
Things to note. It seems whoever wrote the charter included people who trained in Japan. There goes Tew. (Opps, another personal attack.) It is my understanding Tew has not been to Japan. No need he wouldn't learn anything there, I'll bet. Twenty years ago Tew would be 10? 15? Cool. Bussey was there and if the guys do their due diligence as per their rules they will find the info on his experience out there. I have it here at home, too.
This is the line that is providing lots of grist for the "personal attacks".
"The schools currently recognized globally as teaching American Ninjutsu are: To-Shin Do (SKH Quest Centers), Rick TewÂs Martial Science (Tew Ryu Ninjutsu), and RBWI (Robert BusseyÂs schools and affiliated students). Any other school claiming to teach American Ninjutsu can show their qualifications as stated above"
Really? Show work. Until then none of the schools qualify. Deal with it. Life is rough and if you link up with losers who can't finght their own fights you get to lose for them. Show work.
Now I can just hear the kids crying, "Please help."
Someone else will say, "Well who are you to ask that we prove what we are?" No one, dude. But if you hang it out there you better be able to deal with the pain when people stick things in it to see if it's real.
So, what I would suggest for the people who are interested in a mature discussion, which looks like the stubble jumper dude and the P10 guy is we could start trying to set the criteria for the kids. Both Gmunoz and Enson are affiliated with two of the schools in question and once the grown-ups have figuered out the OBJECTIVE (Look it up!) questions and criteria they can do the home-work and leg work
Now here's the neat part, they could then apply it to other schools and we would have a scale of fraudiness (Word?) Then give it a name like the Knowledge-based Ninjutsu Objective Barometer. Each school will then earn a score on the KNOB scale. How cool would that be?
Robert
PS Enson, the bit about american culture is not where you want to go with an International readership.
If the original three "American Ninjutsu" ryuha or schools I guess, are "verified, please show work. ie show us where Hayes shihan has trained, with whom, when, for how long, rank achieved, teachers lineage. This should not be a problem. Then show the work for Tew and Bussey. Opps! Look a personal attack! I'm asking a hard question. Bwahahahhaha.
The original charter reads as such:
Although its roots are founded in rich Japanese tradition, history, and culture, American Ninjutsu has evolved into a unique marital art. Over 20 years ago certain men, having trained in Japan, brought their training experience to back to America. These men pioneered a concept that revolutionized how the American people viewed Japanese culture. The concept they shared was the art of the ninja. These men established ninjutsu schools, assimilating their acquired knowledge into their own unique interpretation of ninjutsu. Referred to as American Ninjustu, similar to its predecessor from Japan, it has evolved to accommodate the culture and needs of 21st Century America.
American Ninjutsu is not restricted by a few set Âkata, but a comprehensive art form in and of itself. It embodies a variety of martial arts technique including: taijutsu (unarmed combat), kenjutsu, shurikenjutsu, metsubishi, koppojustu, stealth, bojutsu, evasion, war tactics, combat strategy, and invisibility. Not bound by traditionalism, it allows the integration of current methodologies, technique, and weaponry that are applicable to the perils of modern day society.
American Ninjutsu is recognized as having proof of an American founder with legitimate ninjutsu training. The schools currently recognized globally as teaching American Ninjutsu are: To-Shin Do (SKH Quest Centers), Rick TewÂs Martial Science (Tew Ryu Ninjutsu), and RBWI (Robert BusseyÂs schools and affiliated students). Any other school claiming to teach American Ninjutsu can show their qualifications as stated above."
This charter outlines the rough direction of this forum. It will grow and change as you our members guide this sections continued direction."
End quote.
Things to note. It seems whoever wrote the charter included people who trained in Japan. There goes Tew. (Opps, another personal attack.) It is my understanding Tew has not been to Japan. No need he wouldn't learn anything there, I'll bet. Twenty years ago Tew would be 10? 15? Cool. Bussey was there and if the guys do their due diligence as per their rules they will find the info on his experience out there. I have it here at home, too.
This is the line that is providing lots of grist for the "personal attacks".
"The schools currently recognized globally as teaching American Ninjutsu are: To-Shin Do (SKH Quest Centers), Rick TewÂs Martial Science (Tew Ryu Ninjutsu), and RBWI (Robert BusseyÂs schools and affiliated students). Any other school claiming to teach American Ninjutsu can show their qualifications as stated above"
Really? Show work. Until then none of the schools qualify. Deal with it. Life is rough and if you link up with losers who can't finght their own fights you get to lose for them. Show work.
Now I can just hear the kids crying, "Please help."
Someone else will say, "Well who are you to ask that we prove what we are?" No one, dude. But if you hang it out there you better be able to deal with the pain when people stick things in it to see if it's real.
So, what I would suggest for the people who are interested in a mature discussion, which looks like the stubble jumper dude and the P10 guy is we could start trying to set the criteria for the kids. Both Gmunoz and Enson are affiliated with two of the schools in question and once the grown-ups have figuered out the OBJECTIVE (Look it up!) questions and criteria they can do the home-work and leg work
Now here's the neat part, they could then apply it to other schools and we would have a scale of fraudiness (Word?) Then give it a name like the Knowledge-based Ninjutsu Objective Barometer. Each school will then earn a score on the KNOB scale. How cool would that be?
Robert
PS Enson, the bit about american culture is not where you want to go with an International readership.
RRouuselot
Master of Arts
RRouuselot said:
Check this out......a "negative ding" from Enoson the "Mod" for my post above
your not smart are you? -enson
and one from a side kick of his no doubt.....
You're an idiot
So ENSON, I am an idiot am I?
Fine, send me an email and explain why you think so.
RRouuselot
Master of Arts
gmunoz said:
That's all fine and well but what my question was how are they different technically?
For example  I looked at Rick TewÂs home instruction demo video #2 with him twirling those Ânum-chucks around like something that came out of a cheap movie and I just canÂt imagine folks at the Bujinkan doing something like that, especially since it is an Okinawan weapon.
This is the kind of thing that I am wanting to understand about how they differ........seem what I mean? Things like RTMS does spinning back kicks, American Ninjas do XXXXXXXX, Japanese Ninjas do XXXXXX......stuff like that.
Thread locked for administrative review.
-Michael Billings
MT S-Mod
-Michael Billings
MT S-Mod
If I might interject a couple of simple thoughts:
The original "Charter" is fatally flawed in that it actually eliminates every neo-ninjitsu ryu ha. The introductory sentence (regarding the "root") is actually untrue. The remainder of the introductory paragraph is also untrue. Sounds good - just not true. Allow me to present a train of thought administration might consider:
*Neo-Ninjitsu ryu ha trace their "roots" to the Sun Tzu era and specificly to Tzu's "Art of War. To a Neo, this is the beginning of the evolution of the moniker "Ninjitsu";
*Ninjutsu (by definition expressed by Hatsumi Sensei) is the study of the arts dealing with how the Japanese Ninja accomplished their accomplishments. Thus, Ninjutsu is concerned with the Japanese Ninja and is enveloped within the age of the living Ninja. Anything having to do with post-Ninja era warfare would Not be a concern with Ninjutsu by Hatsumi's own definition. Thus, the study of the use of automatic firearms would not be a concern or included in Traditional Ninjutsu as automatic firearms were not inclusive the study of the Japanese Ninja's ways of accomplishments during their (the Ninja/Shinobi) era of existance. Another example would be modern aircraft, computerized techniques etc.;
*If a Traditional Japanese Ninjutsu Ryu started to include modern sciences or evolved outside of the traditional study of the way of the Ninja, that traditional schools would lose its traditionalism and actually become a "Neo" school;
*The Neo-Ninjitsu schools, on the otherhand, would cover a time period from circa 300 BC to the present thus covering the time periods before, during and after the age of the Japanese Ninja;
*The Neo-Ninjitsu schools are not limited by any definitions or other parameters defined within Traditionalism. Neo-Ninjitsu does not possess a requirement of any Japanese ties as its "roots" but to first, Sun Tzu. The term "Ninjitsu" is not found in many styles and schools that we would consider Ninjitsu schools not because of any resemblence to any physical nature of the Ninja, but they are to be considered Ninjitsu in that these schools do rely heavily on such skills as stealth, invisibility, deception, subterfuge, clandestine fighting and other terms originating from the Art of War and accepted by both Ninjutsu and Neo-Ninjitsu philosophy. Also embedded within both Ninjutsu and Neo-Ninjitsu are the philosophies of Spirit, Mind and Body. These three catagories were not inventions of the Japanese Ryu but were accepted by the Japanese and other non-japanese schools. Neo schools accept these conventions as originating from a pre-Ninja warring state's era.
*A Non-Japanese Founder of a martial arts school has every right to use the term Ninjitsu as these Founders are not expressing any ties to Japan, but ties to the philosophy of warfare expressed and established by those practicing the Art of War. The concentration of these schools is in that of total warfare. How to defeat ANY existing system of warfare or we might say: the study of how ANYONE today accomplishes winning. Not like the definition of Ninjutsu which specifies how the Ninja accomplished in Japan, but Neo's are concerned how ANYONE and EVERYONE is, are was, able to "accomplish."
I will admit that it is unfortunate that the term "Ninjitsu" was adopted by the Neo Schools and this adoption did cause tremendous confusion not only due to it's romanized spelling (which actually does infer that there is a difference in the two schools) but also because one can easily also infer some type of Japanese discipline. But, as anyone can see today, the term is being used in a much diminished capacity in todays schools. I can foresee that, within a short time period, few Neo-Ninjitsu schools will no longer use the term and will instead adopt such terms a "Martial Science" schools or these schools will simply drop any monikers as in Mr. Bussy's schools or Dux Ryu.
Nothing I have expressed above should be considered any absolute truth by any standard but is expressed hopefully to assist the administration in establishing this section of their forum. Right of wrong, hopefully it will be food for thought.
The original "Charter" is fatally flawed in that it actually eliminates every neo-ninjitsu ryu ha. The introductory sentence (regarding the "root") is actually untrue. The remainder of the introductory paragraph is also untrue. Sounds good - just not true. Allow me to present a train of thought administration might consider:
*Neo-Ninjitsu ryu ha trace their "roots" to the Sun Tzu era and specificly to Tzu's "Art of War. To a Neo, this is the beginning of the evolution of the moniker "Ninjitsu";
*Ninjutsu (by definition expressed by Hatsumi Sensei) is the study of the arts dealing with how the Japanese Ninja accomplished their accomplishments. Thus, Ninjutsu is concerned with the Japanese Ninja and is enveloped within the age of the living Ninja. Anything having to do with post-Ninja era warfare would Not be a concern with Ninjutsu by Hatsumi's own definition. Thus, the study of the use of automatic firearms would not be a concern or included in Traditional Ninjutsu as automatic firearms were not inclusive the study of the Japanese Ninja's ways of accomplishments during their (the Ninja/Shinobi) era of existance. Another example would be modern aircraft, computerized techniques etc.;
*If a Traditional Japanese Ninjutsu Ryu started to include modern sciences or evolved outside of the traditional study of the way of the Ninja, that traditional schools would lose its traditionalism and actually become a "Neo" school;
*The Neo-Ninjitsu schools, on the otherhand, would cover a time period from circa 300 BC to the present thus covering the time periods before, during and after the age of the Japanese Ninja;
*The Neo-Ninjitsu schools are not limited by any definitions or other parameters defined within Traditionalism. Neo-Ninjitsu does not possess a requirement of any Japanese ties as its "roots" but to first, Sun Tzu. The term "Ninjitsu" is not found in many styles and schools that we would consider Ninjitsu schools not because of any resemblence to any physical nature of the Ninja, but they are to be considered Ninjitsu in that these schools do rely heavily on such skills as stealth, invisibility, deception, subterfuge, clandestine fighting and other terms originating from the Art of War and accepted by both Ninjutsu and Neo-Ninjitsu philosophy. Also embedded within both Ninjutsu and Neo-Ninjitsu are the philosophies of Spirit, Mind and Body. These three catagories were not inventions of the Japanese Ryu but were accepted by the Japanese and other non-japanese schools. Neo schools accept these conventions as originating from a pre-Ninja warring state's era.
*A Non-Japanese Founder of a martial arts school has every right to use the term Ninjitsu as these Founders are not expressing any ties to Japan, but ties to the philosophy of warfare expressed and established by those practicing the Art of War. The concentration of these schools is in that of total warfare. How to defeat ANY existing system of warfare or we might say: the study of how ANYONE today accomplishes winning. Not like the definition of Ninjutsu which specifies how the Ninja accomplished in Japan, but Neo's are concerned how ANYONE and EVERYONE is, are was, able to "accomplish."
I will admit that it is unfortunate that the term "Ninjitsu" was adopted by the Neo Schools and this adoption did cause tremendous confusion not only due to it's romanized spelling (which actually does infer that there is a difference in the two schools) but also because one can easily also infer some type of Japanese discipline. But, as anyone can see today, the term is being used in a much diminished capacity in todays schools. I can foresee that, within a short time period, few Neo-Ninjitsu schools will no longer use the term and will instead adopt such terms a "Martial Science" schools or these schools will simply drop any monikers as in Mr. Bussy's schools or Dux Ryu.
Nothing I have expressed above should be considered any absolute truth by any standard but is expressed hopefully to assist the administration in establishing this section of their forum. Right of wrong, hopefully it will be food for thought.
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