Hybrid Martial Arts

[Kalifallen]

As Nimravus said, "I agree that Neo-ninjutsu shouldn't really be listed under the section of Japanese martial arts.
On the other hand, shootfighting could be..."

Now I have no idea how shootfighting got into it unless he is kiddingly trying to point something out. But as for the first part I agree. Neo, hybrid, or modern ninjutsu is not traditional so it should not be in the same catagory as traditional/Japanese ninjutsu. A hybrid, neo or modern art is not (originally) traditional anymore because it has a new philosophy, style, or add ons. Thus it can't be fully Japanese anymore, hence it not being traditional.
Examples, Tew Ryu, Toshindo, RBWI. I will elaborate some. Tew Ryu is a hybrid art/style. He brings together hapkido, kickboxing, escrima and two types of ninjutsu (RBWI and Dux Ryu). Plus he applies he own philosophy but still holding onto same of the Japanese ways but in a Western outlook.
Toshindo is modern. Yes, it is Bujinkan but he doesn't use the Japanese philosophy. He uses the Western philosophy. Because of that it is a modern art.
RBWI (Robert Bussey's World International) is neo. Why? Well, it could go into the modern catagory but it has something that ninjutsu never had/has religon. And because of that is it better understood in the neo catagory. RBWI is Bujinkan ninjutsu with Christianity.

I believe there is nothing wrong with following a neo, modern or hybrid art. Like there is nothing wrong is following the traditional art. I personally enjoy both.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

My point was that shootfighting was created in Japan...which it was, believe it or not. Of course it shouldn't be listed under any type of "ninjutsu" but it does come from Japan.

 

[Bujingodai]

Well though I could care less about what forum I go to. I've been to many Bujinkan dojo, which I trained in, vs some of the indie or neo dojo which I have trained in. The indies follow Japanese tradition more than the Kan's do, so in my experience anyway. So maybe some of the indies do not have direct lineage, some do.....they are training in a Japanese spirit, or tradition. Instead of making this a pissing match of who is more Japanese or not, can we actually discuss something with some meat to it. This particular arguement is some years old an will never be accepted by either side.
Just my opinion, but again I could care less where I post, at least there is a Neo forum, which the traditonals hijack all the time. So if there was a forum where they wouldn't do that then I am in support of it.

 

[gmunoz]

By god marge! I think he's got it! I completely agree with Dave. Seems like the only reason most Kan's come into modern is to attempt to downplay or set some record straight! Pissing match? Yes. Honorable? No. And my teacher would agree... Now let's see how many comments I get from that remark!

 

[gmunoz]

Good points, everyone. So, back to the title of the thread.
I am kinda lost on whether To-Shindo should be in the modern/western section, or kept in the X-Kan section.

To-Shin Do is currently not being kept in traditional. It apparently has no Japanese ties. It is considered western/modern (which it is) which, in my opinion, should more accurately be named American Ninjutsu.

 

[Kizaru]

this is actually technopunk's job but if you insist...

I think technopunk is doing a pretty good job; if he needs help, I'm sure he'll ask for it.

your last four post have nothing to do with hybrid martial arts.

Let's look at those past four posts...
4) 11-01-2004 05:21 PM- Thanking gmunz
3) 11-01-2004 07:58 PM- Thanking gmunz for his kind comment
2) Yesterday 08:00 AM- Noting that GaryArthur's post was a little off topic
1) Today 03:42 AM- Reaction to Enson's accusation

in fact if i'm not mistaken most of them are just trying to get the last word with gmunoz

You mean the same way you're trying to get the last word here with me? I know you and gmunz are good buddies and all, but I don't think you should be leaping to his defense every time his arguement starts to get shaky or when things get emotional.

How can a moderator be impartial if they're always running to defend one of their friends?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

People, we're discussing the organization of these areas and a reallignment will be taking place shortly. We should announce those changes by this coming weekend.

Thank you
- The (Annoyed) Management.

 

[gmunoz]

I think technopunk is doing a pretty good job; if he needs help, I'm sure he'll ask for it.

Let's look at those past four posts...
4) 11-01-2004 05:21 PM- Thanking gmunz
3) 11-01-2004 07:58 PM- Thanking gmunz for his kind comment
2) Yesterday 08:00 AM- Noting that GaryArthur's post was a little off topic
1) Today 03:42 AM- Reaction to Enson's accusation

You mean the same way you're trying to get the last word here with me? I know you and gmunz are good buddies and all, but I don't think you should be leaping to his defense every time his arguement starts to get shaky or when things get emotional.

How can a moderator be impartial if they're always running to defend one of their friends?

Kizaru, I don't need anyone to defend me. I can do that well enough by myself. If you read the actual post, Enson referred to "your last four posts." He is a moderator. I think mods deserve respect. If you have an issue with one you should contact them off of this forum and thread (PM or email) and cease from arguing with modern practitioners. If you don't agree then don't! No need to, as Dave put it, get in a pissing match over everything! My gosh!

 

[gmunoz]

People, we're discussing the organization of these areas and a reallignment will be taking place shortly. We should announce those changes by this coming weekend.

Thank you
- The (Annoyed) Management.

Thank you Kaith. Why is it that certain traditional practitioners (we can name the handful) seem to think that they must rain on much of what is going on in modern? I have yet to see any American ninjutsu practitioners go to the traditional side to start trying to tell them what they do is wrong. Not once! Why are they permitted to continue to do it in modern? In fact, anyone can see that traditional is very inactive as a forum in general. However, you see the trads. VERY active in the modern side. How weird! And much of what they have to contribute only seems to cause rifts!

 

[Cryozombie]

Thank you Kaith. Why is it that certain traditional practitioners (we can name the handful) seem to think that they must rain on much of what is going on in modern? I have yet to see any American ninjutsu practitioners go to the traditional side to start trying to tell them what they do is wrong. Not once! Why are they permitted to continue to do it in modern? In fact, anyone can see that traditional is very inactive as a forum in general. However, you see the trads. VERY active in the modern side. How weird! And much of what they have to contribute only seems to cause rifts!

There are a few people on both sides of the fence that seem to like to stir the pot. I for one would like to see everyone get along.

 

[Don Roley]

Tew Ryu is a hybrid art/style. He brings together hapkido, kickboxing, escrima and two types of ninjutsu (RBWI and Dux Ryu).

A point of contention. Frank Dux does not do ninjutsu. There is not a shred of evidence that he actually learned what he said he did, was employed by the CIA, fought in a "kumite", etc.

Robert Bussey does not do or teach ninjutsu and has not since the 80s. He does not seem to have ever learned Togakure ryu ninjutsu kata and probably spent his time learning the basics of Koto ryu, Kukishinden ryu, etc which is normal before going onto the more specialized ninjutsu kata. He calls what he does "RBWI" and not ninjutsu. Here is a post by one of his representatives on MartialTalk that explains how Bussey should not be counted as someone teaching ninjutsu. It is kind of like saying that anyone who trains with me knows silat because I have attended seminars in it in the past.

Rick Tew started his own version of what he thinks ninjutsu would be. I happen to disagree that the ninja would do what he does. But we are open to all views here. And as long as everyone is clear that the "modern" section is open to anyone who wishes to call themselves ninjutsu and the Traditional is devoted to the ninjutsu you can find in Japan, I see no problem. If less posts were started in the modern section on things like yoko aruki from the Takamatsu-den, there would be little reason for the Japanese guys to go over and correct what is being said about them.

 

[Enson]

Robert Bussey does not do or teach ninjutsu and has not since the 80s. He does not seem to have ever learned Togakure ryu ninjutsu kata and probably spent his time learning the basics of Koto ryu, Kukishinden ryu, etc which is normal before going onto the more specialized ninjutsu kata. He calls what he does "RBWI" and not ninjutsu. Here is a post by one of his representatives on MartialTalk that explains how Bussey should not be counted as someone teaching ninjutsu. It is kind of like saying that anyone who trains with me knows silat because I have attended seminars in it in the past..

got me thinking after i read this post...

To further clarify: RVD does not have two separate ranks in two separate arts. He is now 14th dan in budo taijutsu (the art formerly known as ninpo taijutsu, formerly known as ninjutsu).

if there is all kinds of formally known titles going around why does bussey get so much bad rep for changing his name as hatsumi has? then if this indeed the case... bujinkan should not be considered ninjutsu either?:idunno:

paece

 

[heretic888]

if there is all kinds of formally known titles going around why does bussey get so much bad rep for changing his name as hatsumi has?

I have never heard of anyone giving Mr. Bussey a "bad rep" for changing the name of his organization.

then if this indeed the case... bujinkan should not be considered ninjutsu either?

Ninjutsu is only part of Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. That's no secret.

 

[Bester]

Sorry, man. Never used the "karma system" before. :asian:

Use the Karma Luke!

:rofl:

 

[Bester]

Thanks! But, where's my positive reputation point?!?! Somebody help! My reputation is plummetting! Where's BESTER when you need him?!?! Ahhhhh!!!!

I've been busy. I found this interesting little cartoon. It seems to define a few people here. To the rest, who have been level headed and open minded, please enjoy a laugh on me.

To the rest, well....

 

[Don Roley]

got me thinking after i read this post...
if there is all kinds of formally known titles going around why does bussey get so much bad rep for changing his name as hatsumi has? then if this indeed the case... bujinkan should not be considered ninjutsu either?:idunno:

paece

Let me try to deal with this before it erupts into a flame war. Heretic basically said what I will, but let me expand.

I agree that if you have a Bujinkan rank that does not neccesarily mean you know anything about ninjutsu. Togakure ryu ninjutsu is taught in the Bujinkan, among other arts. Most people deal with Koto ryu, Takagi Yohshin ryu, Kukishinden ryu, etc, much more than they deal with the ninjutsu aspects.

However, you can study the kata of the Togakure ryu. Many instructors have not been taught them, but there are ones that have and in turn teach it to others.

It has been like this for years. Many people (like Bussey) do not seem to have ever encountered the Togakure ryu techniques, but got the old title of "Ninpo Taijutsu" (in itself a bit different from "ninjutsu") on their certificates. The new title of "Budo Taijutsu" is much more inclusive.

So yes, you can study ninjutsu in the Bujinkan, but not everyone who has trained in the Bujinkan has ever even been near a ninjutsu technique.

 

[Kalifallen]

Hm, I can understand saying Bussey didn't teach ninjutsu in RBWI even though he learn ninjutsu. But I don't understand how you can say Bussey doesn't know ninjutsu because he just knows the basics or something.
"He does not seem to have ever learned Togakure ryu ninjutsu kata and probably spent his time learning the basics of Koto ryu, Kukishinden ryu, etc which is normal before going onto the more specialized ninjutsu kata. " quoted, Don Roley. (That's a statement, right?)
I mean he did go to Japan and learn from Hatsumi and the other instructors. Doesn't that mean he knows ninjutsu?

Besides, I believe if you learned from someone who knows the art of traditional ninjutsu then turn it into a modern or hybrid art (like how Bussey did). Then it still is ninjutsu because it has a link to the roots of the art. Even though it has been updated and changed.
Though I can understand your opinion. I mean, how can you call something something if it doesn't repusent the art?
Though that is the reason why you add on the term modern or hybrid so that it is better defined.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I mean he did go to Japan and learn from Hatsumi and the other instructors. Doesn't that mean he knows ninjutsu?

Not unless Hatsumi sensei taught him ninjutsu. Besides, I hear he trained mostly with Nagato sensei.

 

[Kalifallen]

So Nagato doesn't know ninjutsu? Only Hatsumi?
That sounds weird.....

 

[Don Roley]

Besides, I believe if you learned from someone who knows the art of traditional ninjutsu then turn it into a modern or hybrid art (like how Bussey did). Then it still is ninjutsu because it has a link to the roots of the art. Even though it has been updated and changed.

To kind of expand on what Nimravus said, it is kind of like me trying to open up a boxing gym.

Did you know that Hatsumi studied boxing as a youth? Not many people do. But just because he studied it, and I have studied with him, does that mean I know the first thing about boxing? I do not think so. And I think I would know if I did.

It is the same way with Bussey. As Nimravus points out, there seems to be no mention of him learning the very specialized skills of Togakure ryu ninjutsu. If he had stayed in Japan for years and gotten down the things like Shinden Fudo ryu and Gyokko ryu, then maybe he would have been introduced to actual ninjutsu.

But even when talking about the Bujinkan as a whole, you have to take into account that Bussey distanced himself from the Bujinkan and mainly fell back on his Korean background for what he does. It is a mixed martial art, and not Bujinkan anymore. There may be a few wrist locks, etc from the Bujinkan thrown in, but viewed as a whole it is not what the Bujinkan does.

So just like how Hatsumi has learned boxing but does not teach it and therefore I cannot make claims of knowing boxing, Bussey has learned Bujinkan but does not claim to teach it and so his students can't say that they learned Bujinkan and/or ninjutsu.

I hope that made sense. I have not yet had my morning coffee.