What is "American Ninjutsu"

[heretic888]

Perhaps is it because some truth was within the post whether one admits it or not?

Or, perhaps you were presenting the point-of-view of your school and trying to pass it off as applying to all American ninjutsu.

First Statement: "*Neo-Ninjitsu ryu ha trace their "roots" to the Sun Tzu era and specificly to Tzu's "Art of War. To a Neo, this is the beginning of the evolution of the moniker "Ninjitsu";"

First off, none of the groups being represented here are a "ryuha".

Secondly, the "roots" of all the arts covered here are either in the Takamatsu-den or other modern martial arts schools. None of these guys just cracked open Sun Tzu one day, and decided to make up a martial art based on it. They learned their stuff from other, contemporary sources.

Of course, what is more than likely is that they are using a superficial translation of Sun Tzu to fabricate some false claim of authority. Which, frankly, is what seems to be going on here. But, the catcher is that this claim for authority is retroactive --- i.e., Sun Tzu "wisdom" is applied as a "source" for the art after the art has already been created from other sources.

Ta ta.

 

[sojobow]

according to the charter this would not be false. it all depends on what is claimed. if your hanshi claims to do things as done in japan... which he does... then he should belong in the jn section. the ones "currently" (this means there can be additions)accepted are ones claiming to do things for the american culture.

*note* thanks for pulling for me!

Another blatantly false statement: .......... if your hanshi claims to do things as done in japan... which he does... then he should belong in the jn section. the ones .......". Remember, I train daily and know what is said or not said. I am physically in the theatre in which you claim some knowledge of verbal and or physical truths. You are not. There is no record of our being or doing anything "as done in japan" that I am aware of. As I stated before, your type of statements do nothing to assist us in assisting Kaith. An yes, according to the charter (which is not written or codified in any stoneworks), quite a few of the "this's" would not be false. However, as stated, my contention is that the charter is itself flawed such that anyone using it will temperarily be justified in their juxtapositions until the charter is correct/amended. At that time, any current blatantly false statements have no use. And again, we are pulling for your success here. Continuation of 2nd, 3rd, 4th...hand opinions do nothing towards that success.

Hope the little one is well.

 

[sojobow]

Valid concerns, and one which we can hopefully address as appropriate. My understanding is that the X-Kans do study "modern" weapons, and adapt the older techniques for use against their modern equivilent.....I don't see a vast difference in the end-result, just how you get there.

Well said, however, if the highest ranking member of the X-Kans specifically says that Ninjutsu is the study of how the Ninja accomplished their accomplishments, this definition would exclude the study of anything not directly associated with the Ninja. If the current practice includes anything not covered in the time period and locations of the living Ninja, then those practices are not by definition - Ninjutsu but are then associated with some modern hybrid. I don't want to infer that these extra-curricular activities are good or bad - only that they are not any type of classical japanese artform.

The end result is not in question. The question is differentiating Ninjutsu and Neo.

 

[Don Roley]

if the highest ranking member of the X-Kans specifically says that Ninjutsu is the study of how the Ninja accomplished their accomplishments, this definition would exclude the study of anything not directly associated with the Ninja.

I asked you to provide an exact quote for this and give the source before, I am asking it again because I do not beleive you are giving an honest account.

 

[sojobow]

I asked you to provide an exact quote for this and give the source before, I am asking it again because I do not beleive you are giving an honest account.

I've already presented this information. I have not seen your request so I had no reason to provide it to you. A few of your school members even responded that the Book reference may have been incorrect and they provided what they thought was the correct Hatsumi Sensei Book. For your files, I will provide it again for the benefit of other readers of this thread since they should know what Hatsumi's own definition of Ninjutsu is. One would think his own students would already know this. Give me a few minutes to relocate it again. As Gov. Arnold said: "I'll be bock."

 

[sojobow]

I asked you to provide an exact quote for this and give the source before, I am asking it again because I do not beleive you are giving an honest account.

I'm back. Tried to use the quote function correctly this time.

Here is the exact quote, per your request. I also took the liberty to use the quote injected into a search engine and found another source which I will provide since, it seems, that Hatsumi Sensei and I are not to be believed. I added the bold typefaces and not the text.

The Quote:

"As the passage of time continued to unfold the fabric of Japan’s history, the ninja and their ways of accomplishment, known as Ninjutsu, were always present behind the scenes of all the eras to ensure the survival and independence of their families and lands. In the regions of Iga and Koga, Ninjutsu became a special skill, refined and perfected by over seventy families, each with their own unique methods, motivations, and ideals."

Thus, according to the above, Ninjutsu is the study of the ways of accomplishments of the Ninja. To put it another way: "how the Ninja did what they did" - bad English and all.

The Source:

Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi: The Historical Ninja
Secondary Source: Bujinkan South Africa: http://www.bujinkan.co.za/H1.html

While reviewing the History of Ninjutsu webpage, I also hope that readers will also note the following quote taken directly from the page. Although I was given at least 20 negative red points as well as a name change to "Bonehead," here is the highest ranking member of the Bujinkan expressing the same statements as inherited from his own teacher as I have inherited from mine:

"Among the ancient ninjutsu documents that I inherited from my teacher are several scrolls that tell of Chinese ex-patriots who fled their native land to seek sanctuary in the islands of Japan. Chinese warriors, scholars, and monks alike made the journey to find new lives in the wilderness of Ise and Kii south of the capitals in Nara and then Kyoto. Taoist sages like Gamon, Garyu, Kain, and Unryu, and generals from T’ang China such as Cho Gyokko, Ikai, and Cho Busho brought with them the knowledge that had accumulated over the centuries in their native land. Military strategies, religious philosophies, folklore, cultural concepts, medical practices, and a generally wide scope of perspective that blended the wisdom of China with that of India, Tibet, Eastern Europe, and south-east Asia were their gifts to their newly-found followers in Japan. Remote and far flung from the Emperor’s court in the capital, the cultural ancestors of the ninja lived their lives as naturalists and mystics, while the main-stream of society became increasingly structured, ranked, stylised, and eventually tightly controlled."

So it seems that my multiple sources thus far are Dr. Hatsumi, Dr. Hatsumi's Teacher, my Hanshi. Everything I have presented to this Forum have like sources.

Thus, to belabor my point regarding the "root" portion of the Charter for this section:

""Although its roots are founded in rich Japanese tradition, history, and culture, American Ninjutsu has evolved into a unique marital art. ...." (Kaith Rustaz)

I maintain that this statement is incorrect as proven by Dr. Hatsumi's statement above and should be corrected to state that the "roots are founded in rich Chinese tradition, history, and culture...."

Also, this would remove the constraint of American Ninjutsu (Modern Ninjitsu) having schools that have to "qualify" utilizing some "Japanese" legitimizations. I would also believe that anyone in the United States Military and anyone outside of Japan would be welcomed here - and qualify to enter their school in this section - as long as that entity believes and practices the philosohies related to Spirit, Mind and Body. Spirit, Mind and Body should be the only pre-requisits as a school of Modern Ninjitsu (or whatever the Administration decides to label this section/subsection).

Just my own opinion.

 

[sojobow]

........ But, the catcher is that this claim for authority is retroactive --- i.e., Sun Tzu "wisdom" is applied as a "source" for the art after the art has already been created from other sources. .Ta ta.

Although there were many "Sun Tzu's; Sun Wu's" etc, this statement I find extremely interesting. Please be so kind as to further elaborate on this statement. Especially the portion "the art after the art has already been created from other sources." Hopefully, your reply will not be considered off - topic. It is too interesting a concept and needs a response. thanx.

 

[Don Roley]

"As the passage of time continued to unfold the fabric of Japan’s history, the ninja and their ways of accomplishment, known as Ninjutsu, were always present behind the scenes of all the eras to ensure the survival and independence of their families and lands. In the regions of Iga and Koga, Ninjutsu became a special skill, refined and perfected by over seventy families, each with their own unique methods, motivations, and ideals."

Thus, according to the above, Ninjutsu is the study of the ways of accomplishments of the Ninja. To put it another way: "how the Ninja did what they did" - bad English and all.

Nope. The correct assesment of the section you quoted is that what they did was called ninjutsu. Nothing you quoted says what you are trying to get people to believe.

And where do I start with your twisting of the Chinese angle....

 

[heretic888]

Although there were many "Sun Tzu's; Sun Wu's" etc, this statement I find extremely interesting. Please be so kind as to further elaborate on this statement. Especially the portion "the art after the art has already been created from other sources." Hopefully, your reply will not be considered off - topic. It is too interesting a concept and needs a response. thanx.

What's to elaborate??

Most of the "neo" groups weren't inspired by the Art of War to create their own distinctive style of "ninjutsu". They simply studied contemporary martial arts available today, and based their own style off of that.

Retroactively projecting the Art of War into your style's founding doesn't change that.

 

[heretic888]

Nope. The correct assesment of the section you quoted is that what they did was called ninjutsu. Nothing you quoted says what you are trying to get people to believe.

And where do I start with your twisting of the Chinese angle....

Not to mention, the source cited by sojobow was actually "ghostwritten" by Stephen Hayes.

 

[Enson]

Mod. Note.
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-MT Moderator-

 

[Bujingodai]

I would have to say I agree with Heretic, I can't say that anything I or any other indie was due to reading the art of war.

This thread is getting pretty confusing.

I think it pretty safe that most of the American Ninjutsu founders based their principle training beliefs on those that they had learned or were inspired by the Japanese systems. For some reason or another didn't like the way it was being run, how it was being taught or some other reason broke off to do it themselves. Orrr trained in a form of self defence they saw as being closely related to the philisophical/physical training Ninja ideals and called it Ninjutsu. Its late I'm tired so I am sorry if that sounded very scatterbrained. Don I am sure you'll correct me LOL.

 

[tshadowchaser]

These are my thoughts on this matter. I have taken a long time to figure out what I wanted to say , so this is only MHO on the matter.
If a person studied with the kans and can prove so , but broke away to start his own system based upon such teachings he should be able to call his system "Whaterver" Ninjutsu.
If the person has made up a system based on what he has only read, seen in movies, or heard was taught then that person should call what he teaches something else.
Claiming that you teach something without ever haveing studied it is wrong. KNowing that something exsists and useing that name to promote yourslef is wrong. Teaching something you THINK resembles something else and useing their name is wrong
My thoughts only

 

[Don Roley]

If a person studied with the kans and can prove so , but broke away to start his own system based upon such teachings he should be able to call his system "Whaterver" Ninjutsu.

Ah, but how long would they have to study under a teacher in the kans and/or what level would they have to reach to qualify? Are we talking about someone like Stephen Hayes- who studied in the Bujinkan for years and reached tenth dan, or are we talking about someone who has been to a single seminar by a low ranked Bujinkan instructor? Where do we draw the line?

I have known people who have done the bare minimum to try to justify their use of the ninjutsu name. One group was started by a guy that originally claimed to study under a bogus "Koga" system. After he started his system he found out that there is no legitimate Koga ryu in North America- so he took a total of two seminars with someone claiming to teach Bujinkan. When it was proved that this guy was merely using the name Bujinkan (after a lot of screaming and charges of a cover up by Hatsumi) this guy joins the Genbukan for about a year before getting out. Mind you, his joining a legitimate system that is found in Japan was a full two decades after he started his own system of modern ninjutsu. His is not an isolated case with many people taking video black belt courses to justify using the name. Do they count?

And what about the people that study under a person who starts their own martial art? Do they count too? As you can see, this is getting complicated, but these questions will come up. Toshindo really is not ninjutsu and uses a different name. Same with Bussey's RBWI or Severe's Art of Combat. So, if someone gets a video black belt from Hayes, can they be counted as legitimate if they start their own Ameircan ninjutsu style? These people do not bother to show up to Japan to train with people who are the head of ninjutsu orginizations, but instead seem to do the bare minimum to justify the use of the name.

If we are going to qualify Hayes (who most of us feel is qualified to do what he did) but not the guy who took a single seminar with the local Bujinkan dojo, we had better be able to say why and point to some objective standard.

Oh yeah, this is getting complicated. We are not talking about definitions, but rather standards. And we need to choose who sets them and justify them. And we know that whatever we choose, there will be those that whine and complain at being left out.

I think there needs to be a section like this where people can talk about how their style of ninjutsu uses nunchaku like Rick Tew does and not get grief from the guys in Japan. It is a matter of fact, not opinion, that the ninja did not use nunchaku and no one in Japan teaching ninjutsu uses them. But whether a modern style using them is in the spirit of ninjutsu or not is purely opinion.

I guess what I am trying to say is that the problems we seem to be facing is by setting a type of exclusivity about this section, instead of opening up to more points of view. We already have a section where we can talk about things done in the way of Japan. So if we have a section where there are no requirements or set definitions/ standards of who is qualified to start their own style or not, then the guys from the kans have nothing to complain about people being misled. That is why I voted for the term "ninja concepts" becasue I felt that as long as we were clear that we were talking about what people felt (i.e. concepts) then there would be less of a problem that trying to determine who was and not a legitimate authority on ninjutsu.

Sorry to go on like this.

 

[still learning]

Hello, I am not sure what you all are trying to say, a little loss here? What is "American Ninjutsu"? Who ever started this has there interpretations of what it means, and can make it anyway they want it to fit for themselves. What is a true ninja? It is liking sayin," what is true karate"? Everthing envolves as time past. I think you are all right in your way of looking at it,no two people will see it the same, isn't this true for more things in life? Real Ninjutsu? What is it today,japanese way,american way, or my way? It is how you see it? All are correct. What is American? All or parts of our hertiage. Can be mix of everything. American Ninjutsu is just words, with many definitions, and each one of you will have it's own meaning...true? Define REAL? Is there one answer?.......Seems like some of you have there own feelings and express it with all your heart!..........still a little loss....

Japanese Ninjutsu
American Ninjutsu
My Ninjutsu

which one is correct to use? Why can't we use all or any? it.s our choice? ( In free America) An american car made with japanese parts..What is it?
Aloha

 

[jibran]

Do you want to know what I find funny?
Hayes, though he is the only one with legitimate Bujinkan training; does not call his American art by the "Ninjutsu" name but the ones without verifiable training use it (the name).

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I was planning to stay away from this forum, but...

If a person studied with the kans and can prove so , but broke away to start his own system based upon such teachings he should be able to call his system "Whaterver" Ninjutsu.

That's assuming he did learn NINJUTSU while in any of the -kans, as opposed to taijutsu and bukiwaza.

Claiming that you teach something without ever haveing studied it is wrong. KNowing that something exsists and useing that name to promote yourslef is wrong. Teaching something you THINK resembles something else and useing their name is wrong

:cheers:

 

[Enson]

Do you want to know what I find funny?
Hayes, though he is the only one with legitimate Bujinkan training; does not call his American art by the "Ninjutsu" name but the ones without verifiable training use it (the name).

i thought hayes said something like "21rst century applications of ninjutsu." i might be wrong but i read that somewhere.

although everyone makes a good point... i have to agree with "still learning" on this one. why does a simple internet forum have to be so politically correct. why can't someone that obviously disagrees with whatever system just stay away? i don't think "jkd" should be a real style... but if the practicioners want to have a forum... so be it. i'm not saying not to question things... but... does it really make a difference to you? you want to impress someone with all your knowledge... place yourself apart in your training and in what you teach. not jump on every practicioner of the style you disagree with. that to me is silly and immature.

the trad. folk wanted us out of jma section... they said as long as we were out of their area we could talk about our styles in freedom... after obvious segregation that was hammered on to everyone outside of their circle of beliefs... we finally got the permission to move. now... those that do not study... buj, gen, jen, kling whatever... are not in the jma section... we still get hammered. weird:idunno: . what one must understand is that the styles practiced here are not trying to be the buj. why compare what is being done? if the practicioners thought the buj was superior... they would pay the buj fee and sign a couple of monthly payment plan papers and state how they have the only real ninjutsu. is that what its come to? now we are being told ninjutsu should not be even mentioned when it comes to our arts. more segregation? i think so! :angry:

so where is the middle ground? american ninjutsu is something that is done in america. why is that so hard for people to accept. they state the obvious saying "thats not the way its done in japan, or thats not japanese ninjutsu what you guys are doing"... who cares? not me! i for one am not trying to be a buj practicioner or any other style. i just wanted a "friendly discussion about the martial arts". if politics is taught more than ethics... thats a shame.
here is an article by sensei...
http://www.totalwarrior.com/Rick_Tew_s_Ninjitsu/Total_Warrior_Magazine/Tradition_its_History/tradition_its_history.html
may clear things up for some.

peace

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

what one must understand is that the styles practiced here are not trying to be the buj.

Maybe so, but WHY oh WHY use the "n-word" at all?? To prove WHAT point???

 

[Flatlander]

Maybe so, but WHY oh WHY use the "n-word" at all?? To prove WHAT point???

Perhaps so that the people who study these arts know where the sub forum is located.