What is "American Ninjutsu"
- Thread starter Bob Hubbard
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Nimravus said:
I disagree. If you look at Kaiths post, the very first paragraph describes what falls under the term "AN".
Here is his first paragraph above.
In the final paragraph, he states this.
That being said, in effect Bussey did learn from a Japanese instructor, but created his own way of teaching. An American teaching HIS blend of a Japanese art.
Mike
Bujingodai
Black Belt
True Bussey did train with Hatsumi, he did make it to 4th dan. Though that has been explained to me as not being a "good" 4th dan it was still a ranking given by the Kan. He no longer claims to teach Ninjutsu, so sort of a moot point. If the contention too is that what you are learning is not Ninjutsu but BBT then why all this fuss. When I was a Bujinkan member it was being advertised as Ninjutsu, so call it what it is.
If the independents are being shuffled off to a seperate forum as to not offend the legit Japanese practitioners, then do not concern yourself with the fallacy that we wish to chat about here. Why push to move us to only follow it here and make more rules for it.
I am pretty happy to chat with the wannabes then. You'd also be suprised as to how many Kan members could care less what org you are from and more concerned with whether you feel happy about what you are doing. At the very least at least the wannabes are open minded and willing to train and share without the politics
If the independents are being shuffled off to a seperate forum as to not offend the legit Japanese practitioners, then do not concern yourself with the fallacy that we wish to chat about here. Why push to move us to only follow it here and make more rules for it.
I am pretty happy to chat with the wannabes then. You'd also be suprised as to how many Kan members could care less what org you are from and more concerned with whether you feel happy about what you are doing. At the very least at least the wannabes are open minded and willing to train and share without the politics
OP
OP
People, a few more minor points. I've got a migraine, so this won't be my normal "feel good" style.
1- A name was needed. I used the one suggested by the moderator.
2 - A definition was needed. I used the one suggested by the moderator.
3- A delination of accepted content was needed. Again, I used the one suggested by the moderator.
All -3- items can be reworded at a later time, provided that it can be done in a civil manner. If enough traffic is generated, I have no problem spinning off seperate forums for Hayes, Tew, etc. I would have set up seperate forums for each of the X-Kans however my understanding is that at least 1 of those groups prefers that you don't.
American Ninjutsu was selected over the other possible names as a starting point. It may change, it may not.
Now, Stop the sandbox pissing immediately or I'll toss -ALL- the damned ninja forums. You people are currently generating around 95% of the complaints and reports we are getting. This crap ends. Now.
1- A name was needed. I used the one suggested by the moderator.
2 - A definition was needed. I used the one suggested by the moderator.
3- A delination of accepted content was needed. Again, I used the one suggested by the moderator.
All -3- items can be reworded at a later time, provided that it can be done in a civil manner. If enough traffic is generated, I have no problem spinning off seperate forums for Hayes, Tew, etc. I would have set up seperate forums for each of the X-Kans however my understanding is that at least 1 of those groups prefers that you don't.
American Ninjutsu was selected over the other possible names as a starting point. It may change, it may not.
Now, Stop the sandbox pissing immediately or I'll toss -ALL- the damned ninja forums. You people are currently generating around 95% of the complaints and reports we are getting. This crap ends. Now.
Kaith, good way to end your post. I agree with you. A call was put out for for ideas and I think I gave you some. People whining about their guys lack of credintials or excess thereof is not condusive to moving this dsicussion forward.
I actually read your post and caught the part that said it's a working model. I posted some ideas. Twirling a vacuum cleaner around by an above mentioned Ninjer Soke is on the Internet. Posting facts is not fraud busting, unless the facts bust a fraud. Sorry about that.
I don't think The Bujinkan is ninjutsu either. It consists of nine schools, six samurai and three, wait for it, ninja ryuha. That the Bujinkan is normally considered ninjutsu would be semantically incorrect. However, I think all agree that it is the Source of all the off-shoots, whether through trained students, "trained students" or inspiration for the wanna-bes.
I think if the Non-Bujinkan types spent some time defining who they are they could really make some headway into being accepted. It is this huge overarching tendancy amongst them to vast tracts of hyperbole that really gets the bile up on people who train in the other three traditions. You're forcing us to beleive your made up stories about Ninja Shaolin warrior gods? Really? Wow! I never knew...
As for being traditional, I don't believe the Bujinkan is traditional either. It is an accretion of nine koryu or old schools. Those are Traditional. Is the word Tradition the right one? How do we define Tradition? Is folding Sensei's hakima traditional after a class in light-saber jutsu or pistol disarms? Is bowing and scraping Traditional? So, perhaps before we define Ninjutsu we should get a good working definition of Traditional and the other words they want to use to define their arts and businesses. American should be a pretty easy one. What other words so we need? Weapons? Ninja? Ninjutsu, obviously. Verifiable? What's wrong with being an unverifiable Ninja-type school? Think the guys in Corranado have any propblems not being verified. Langley probably doesn't care where the skills come from. Anyone else want to offer up some words for intelligent discussion and definition?
Newt Gingrich oncee said, " A room full of ordinary people could out-think a genius." If the adults could come to your thread here Kaith we could figure some of this out. I have seen little of what I asked for in the last line of my first post on this subject. I hold out hope.
I actually read your post and caught the part that said it's a working model. I posted some ideas. Twirling a vacuum cleaner around by an above mentioned Ninjer Soke is on the Internet. Posting facts is not fraud busting, unless the facts bust a fraud. Sorry about that.
I don't think The Bujinkan is ninjutsu either. It consists of nine schools, six samurai and three, wait for it, ninja ryuha. That the Bujinkan is normally considered ninjutsu would be semantically incorrect. However, I think all agree that it is the Source of all the off-shoots, whether through trained students, "trained students" or inspiration for the wanna-bes.
I think if the Non-Bujinkan types spent some time defining who they are they could really make some headway into being accepted. It is this huge overarching tendancy amongst them to vast tracts of hyperbole that really gets the bile up on people who train in the other three traditions. You're forcing us to beleive your made up stories about Ninja Shaolin warrior gods? Really? Wow! I never knew...
As for being traditional, I don't believe the Bujinkan is traditional either. It is an accretion of nine koryu or old schools. Those are Traditional. Is the word Tradition the right one? How do we define Tradition? Is folding Sensei's hakima traditional after a class in light-saber jutsu or pistol disarms? Is bowing and scraping Traditional? So, perhaps before we define Ninjutsu we should get a good working definition of Traditional and the other words they want to use to define their arts and businesses. American should be a pretty easy one. What other words so we need? Weapons? Ninja? Ninjutsu, obviously. Verifiable? What's wrong with being an unverifiable Ninja-type school? Think the guys in Corranado have any propblems not being verified. Langley probably doesn't care where the skills come from. Anyone else want to offer up some words for intelligent discussion and definition?
Newt Gingrich oncee said, " A room full of ordinary people could out-think a genius." If the adults could come to your thread here Kaith we could figure some of this out. I have seen little of what I asked for in the last line of my first post on this subject. I hold out hope.
Kaith,
I think it is great the way it is. Let the Japanese art practitioners figure out what they want to do. I don't think anyone else that considers themselves American Ninjutsu is making the fuss. Why don't we leave it as is and see what happens. That way you and the administators can see where and who the real fuss is coming from.
This is already a big enough change obviously for some (don't know why). Leave it alone and see what's up.
I think it is great the way it is. Let the Japanese art practitioners figure out what they want to do. I don't think anyone else that considers themselves American Ninjutsu is making the fuss. Why don't we leave it as is and see what happens. That way you and the administators can see where and who the real fuss is coming from.
This is already a big enough change obviously for some (don't know why). Leave it alone and see what's up.
Satt
Black Belt
On that last note, I just wanted to say I love ALL of you VERY much!!! 
I am honored to be one of SKH's students and I am honored to be able to discuss the differences that make us who we are. EVERYONE has a place here and we should appreciate what Kaith has set up for us. I respect ALL you fellow ninjutsu practitioners and I hope you have found some fullfillment no matter who has trained you. I respect all of them too especially since they could all kick my butt. LOL. Anyway, Kaith I hope we aren't the reason you are taking a vacation. Have fun anyway. I'll take some good points please...Thanx!!!
artyon:
I am honored to be one of SKH's students and I am honored to be able to discuss the differences that make us who we are. EVERYONE has a place here and we should appreciate what Kaith has set up for us. I respect ALL you fellow ninjutsu practitioners and I hope you have found some fullfillment no matter who has trained you. I respect all of them too especially since they could all kick my butt. LOL. Anyway, Kaith I hope we aren't the reason you are taking a vacation. Have fun anyway. I'll take some good points please...Thanx!!!artyon:
heretic888
Senior Master
I know this is a tad off-topic, but since it was mentioend...
I don't believe this is true for two principal reasons:
1) Any dichotomy between "samurai" and "ninja" is, well, silly. The groups people identify as "ninja" (the Iga-shu and Koga-shu) were (usually) the samurai of their respective provinces.
2) The "six samurai/three ninja" equation is not very accurate, either. Gyokko ryu, Koto ryu, and Gikan ryu all have overt connections to the "ninja".
See the "Traditional Ninjutsu" forum for more details on this. It has been discussed at length previously.
Laterz.
Moko said:
I don't believe this is true for two principal reasons:
1) Any dichotomy between "samurai" and "ninja" is, well, silly. The groups people identify as "ninja" (the Iga-shu and Koga-shu) were (usually) the samurai of their respective provinces.
2) The "six samurai/three ninja" equation is not very accurate, either. Gyokko ryu, Koto ryu, and Gikan ryu all have overt connections to the "ninja".
See the "Traditional Ninjutsu" forum for more details on this. It has been discussed at length previously.
Laterz.
Enjoy yourselves. And don't get hurt. The Japanese Buyu need figure nothing out in regards to credibility. That is the realm of the Fraud ninja ryu and the Authentic Koga ryuha and with one exception the American experience.
It's only Soke's movements that are uniquely unattainable.
I thought this thread was a brilliant idea by Kaith to define the essense of "American Ninjutsu" and the current maisma that is your "history" and your venal Sokes. This would have gone a long way to defining What "America Ninjutsu" is. Perhaps in a few years with more mature people we can explore this together in intelligent discourse. Or perhaps not.
Robert
PS Enson, you spelled infinite wrong.
It's only Soke's movements that are uniquely unattainable.
I thought this thread was a brilliant idea by Kaith to define the essense of "American Ninjutsu" and the current maisma that is your "history" and your venal Sokes. This would have gone a long way to defining What "America Ninjutsu" is. Perhaps in a few years with more mature people we can explore this together in intelligent discourse. Or perhaps not.
Robert
PS Enson, you spelled infinite wrong.
KyleShort
Green Belt
Checking people's spelling in their posts is a little childish, especially when you spell words like 'miasma' incorrectly
I hope this forum generates what the mods hoped it would. I would hate to see it shut down (and the JN forum also) because I love reading, and occasionally participating, in these threads. I happen to loathe the term 'American Ninjutsu' for the same reason I hate Tae Kwan Do dojangs advertising themselves as Karate...but that doesn't matter as long as everyone is having fun and exchanging good information.
I hope this forum generates what the mods hoped it would. I would hate to see it shut down (and the JN forum also) because I love reading, and occasionally participating, in these threads. I happen to loathe the term 'American Ninjutsu' for the same reason I hate Tae Kwan Do dojangs advertising themselves as Karate...but that doesn't matter as long as everyone is having fun and exchanging good information.
heretic888
Senior Master
What's wrong with 'Neo-Ninjutsu'?? :uhyeah:
Shizen Shigoku
Purple Belt
I am a Bujinkan member, I practice Bujinkan Dojo Budo Taijutsu which includes authentic ninjutsu.
I do not practice (officially, or formerly) as part of an American Ninjitsu / Neo-Ninja / Hybrid MA / MMA / Etc. dojo.
However, I am an American. I do practice ninjutsu as part of the art-style that I study. I also incorporate principles of the above mentioned AN / N-N / HMA/ MMA styles that have evolved out of our country's exposure to Japanese ninjutsu and its influence on the world.
Am I allowed to post here?
I sense that some of us are trying to make enemies out of members of our "rival" MA organizations / styles. (re: gmunoz posts - btw, you don't have to have a separate reply for each paragraph you write. That takes up a lot of space ).
We're all budoka here. We are not enemies. If we become enemies, we may battle eachother like the honorable (or not) warriors that we are (or may in fact not be).
Share information; please be honest with eachother and with yourselves.
Conflicts seem to arise often because people cannot agree on what is or is not real when it comes to discussing aspects of these arts. Fraud-busting and the like (re: Nimravus' posts) occur because people are blatently using terms incorectly, or are otherwise lying or misleading to the public - even accidentally. As long as people understand exactly what it is that they are doing and have a frame of reference based on what is factually known then they can make honest decisions with themselves. And carry on merrily.
<sigh>
Just wanted to say, let's not be afraid to talk to one another - regardless of style - we're not sharing secret ninja knowledge or anything, just talking about our training experiences as martial artists.
You may decide among yourselves if you want to have American Ninjitsu separate from general Neo-Ninjitsu. If you're already drawing lines in the sand, might as well have a lot of lines, right?
I do not practice (officially, or formerly) as part of an American Ninjitsu / Neo-Ninja / Hybrid MA / MMA / Etc. dojo.
However, I am an American. I do practice ninjutsu as part of the art-style that I study. I also incorporate principles of the above mentioned AN / N-N / HMA/ MMA styles that have evolved out of our country's exposure to Japanese ninjutsu and its influence on the world.
Am I allowed to post here?
I sense that some of us are trying to make enemies out of members of our "rival" MA organizations / styles. (re: gmunoz posts - btw, you don't have to have a separate reply for each paragraph you write. That takes up a lot of space
). We're all budoka here. We are not enemies. If we become enemies, we may battle eachother like the honorable (or not) warriors that we are (or may in fact not be).
Share information; please be honest with eachother and with yourselves.
Conflicts seem to arise often because people cannot agree on what is or is not real when it comes to discussing aspects of these arts. Fraud-busting and the like (re: Nimravus' posts) occur because people are blatently using terms incorectly, or are otherwise lying or misleading to the public - even accidentally. As long as people understand exactly what it is that they are doing and have a frame of reference based on what is factually known then they can make honest decisions with themselves. And carry on merrily.
<sigh>
Just wanted to say, let's not be afraid to talk to one another - regardless of style - we're not sharing secret ninja knowledge or anything, just talking about our training experiences as martial artists.
You may decide among yourselves if you want to have American Ninjitsu separate from general Neo-Ninjitsu. If you're already drawing lines in the sand, might as well have a lot of lines, right?
Shizen Shigoku,Shizen Shigoku said:I(re: gmunoz posts - btw, you don't have to have a separate reply for each paragraph you write. That takes up a lot of space
Thanx for the chuckle. I know my posts take up space, but how then am I supposed to increase my belt ranking on MT? I need that ego trip!
I'll try to limit my posts from now on.
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