What is "American Ninjutsu"

[Seig]

Bester, your disagreement with AN forum isn't welcomed here. If you don't have anything positive to say and are here just to make sny remarks or cause problems, that belongs some other place. Some people just can't help themselves but be stupid can they?

If I studied any form of nijutsu, I might be insulted with Bester's jest. However, the tone of your response is not anything positive. Telling someone they are not welcome in a forum because you disagree with them is not the way we do things here at MT. At this point, instead of suspending either of you for violation of the sniping policy, I am calling offsetting fouls. Take this as a friendly unofficial warning.

 

[gmunoz]

If I studied any form of nijutsu, I might be insulted with Bester's jest. However, the tone of your response is not anything positive. Telling someone they are not welcome in a forum because you disagree with them is not the way we do things here at MT. At this point, instead of suspending either of you for violation of the sniping policy, I am calling offsetting fouls. Take this as a friendly unofficial warning.

Seig, with all do respect, suspend me if you must. But why is it that someone can just come into a forum that is running smoothly and people are getting along and permitted to behave himself this way? We are attempting to build this forum as a positive way to interact about Martial arts (after all isn't this what MT vision statement is?). What is happening isn't conducive to further growth and it will never become "friendly discussion of the martial arts" in this forum if the naysayers are allowed to do this. Disagreement is one thing and I have no problem with someone not agreeing. But for gosh sakes, respect us and we'll respect you.

I've been trying to tell the many that I come in contact with to visit MT - that there is a safe place now. Should I ask them NOT to come around because things haven't changed? Please advise.

 

[sojobow]

At this point, instead of suspending either of you for violation of the sniping policy, I am calling offsetting fouls. Take this as a friendly unofficial warning.

I was bounced for two weeks and still have no idea what a "sniping policy" is. I've read the link supplied by enson and still can't find a "sniping policy." If someone can cut&paste something called "Sniping Policy," I'd really appreciate it.

 

[sojobow]

The movies were called "American Ninja".
This is the "American Ninja" forum.
Therefore it fits.

Correction: American "Ninjutsu" forum and not American "Ninja." There is a big difference. The second one never existed. The first one is Kraith's invention to start us on the right track.

 

[Enson]

To Enson; why are we not allowed to post in the "American Ninjer" forum if we do traditional (Read verifiable and non-fraudulent) Ninjutsu? I note with interest that you as a non-tradtional type still post questions in the other side of the house. Is this disparity your lack of knowledge and your teacher's lack showing through or is it you WANT to be hanging out with us. I'm really curious. In fact if anyone scrolls down there one sees Enson asking tons of questions. Seems to me the first source for any student with questions would be a person's teacher. I personnally think the meanest thing for us to do would be to leave you in the company of Genin Andrews, Gmunoz and the rest of your little cabal of yes ninjers. Where would you get new info from? Robert

moko/robert... as you might see i have started many threads since the time i joined martial talk. not for any specific answers but to generate dialogue on mt... so youngins like yourself would have a place to post. you might also take notice on the dates of every thread. not many recent questions have been asked on your side of the fence by myself. maybe a passing mod. can confirm this for me. your continueing dead end arguement has been going on long before you found this forum on your yahoo search engine.
if a traditionalist would post here... without obvious agendas (such as yourself) we would have no problem with it. now the real question is why would you take the time to "troll" our side of the fence if you are so fulfilled on the traditional side? grass is greener maybe?:idunno: your obvious insecurities are oozing.

I personnally think the meanest thing for us to do would be to leave you in the company of Genin Andrews, Gmunoz and the rest of your little cabal of yes ninjers.

i personally think you should do it. i encourage it with the upmost vigor. please? i hold andrew, gmunoz, and the other "yes ninjers". to the highest esteem. they are good people and should be respected. i would stand by them anyday then have to be in an organization where racism and elitism is practiced by so many. if that is what traditional ninjutsu is about i'm glad i study "an". maybe michael pearce should get on again and scold the "trolls" for making the trad. ninjers look bad?

 

[sojobow]

Lets try this:

Take one of the American Ninjutsu instructors at a time and define their training and the modifacations that they have made ove the years tomake it something diffrent from what they originaly learned. Im sure we already have one thread devoted to Mr. Hayes so lets see what the others have done and why they can/should/what to be AN

Then what do we do about all the Ninjitsu schools out there that decided to drop the word Ninjitsu/Ninjutsu but teach Ninjitsu none the less to a certain degree and don't want to be included in these arguements? Why not try this: Only have a Ninjutsu forum for those schools that teach 100% Ninjutsu or 100% Ninjitsu? No mixing of any other artform is allowed. No Samurai, Kenjutsu, Kenpo, Kung Fu. If its not 100%, it doesn't belong in either forum. I'd like to see who then qualifies. Think maybe Kaith got it right when he mentions that maybe its time to just drop ALL Ninjutsu/Ninjitsu Forums. No one seems to know what it is anyway.

 

[RRouuselot]

I am not really sure what an “American Ninja” is to be honest.
Years ago in the 1980’s the Ninja Boom hit the US movie seen and it seemed overnight that all the “modern karate” and some “TKD” teachers were all of a sudden “Ninja”. They all went from white gi to black gi with a hood and some tabi…..
What cracks me up is the guys that do nunchaku, sai, and tonfa and try and tell me that those are “authentic Ninja weapons”… …they are actually Okinawan. That’s kind of like saying the crossbow is an authentic American Indian weapon.

 

[Seig]

Seig, with all do respect, suspend me if you must.

Despite my reputation, I'd rather not.

But why is it that someone can just come into a forum that is running smoothly and people are getting along and permitted to behave himself this way?

Again, I saw it as a jest. If you did not see it this way, the proper thing to do was to report the post and not come back with an insult.

We are attempting to build this forum as a positive way to interact about Martial arts (after all isn't this what MT vision statement is?).

It is, and your goal is laudable. I fervantly hope to see you succeed.

What is happening isn't conducive to further growth and it will never become "friendly discussion of the martial arts" in this forum if the naysayers are allowed to do this.

The example has to start at home. To say the Ninjutsu forums have been a hot bed of controversy would be an understatement. I have not seen much "discussion"; I have, however, seen an immense amount of cyber dueling. Educate, don't argue.

Disagreement is one thing and I have no problem with someone not agreeing. But for gosh sakes, respect us and we'll respect you.

I 100% agree with you. But again, the example must start with the members of the forum.

I've been trying to tell the many that I come in contact with to visit MT - that there is a safe place now. Should I ask them NOT to come around because things haven't changed? Please advise.

The only people that can make this forum safe for those of you studying this western ninjustsu or American or whatever you like to call yourselves, is you. When you engage in debate without seeing an assassin behind every post, things will get better. If I see a level of professionalism from the regular posters of this forum that is not being met by the visitors or then see deliberate sabotage, then I can take action. As it stands now, I can only react to the fires as they flare. Bob has gone a long way to give you guys a forum and he would like to see it succeed. I will work with you, but you have to meet me half way.
Seig

 

[Seig]

I was bounced for two weeks and still have no idea what a "sniping policy" is. I've read the link supplied by enson and still can't find a "sniping policy." If someone can cut&paste something called "Sniping Policy," I'd really appreciate it.

The Sniping Policy

Effective 9/21/04

Any continuation of the constant and/or subtle sniping will see not only the thread locked but the perpetrator(s) immediately suspended, without warning.

Found Here http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=314

For the record your suspension was for two weeks because it was the second time you were suspended.

 

[Bester]

I am not really sure what an “American Ninja” is to be honest.
Years ago in the 1980’s the Ninja Boom hit the US movie seen and it seemed overnight that all the “modern karate” and some “TKD” teachers were all of a sudden “Ninja”. They all went from white gi to black gi with a hood and some tabi…..
What cracks me up is the guys that do nunchaku, sai, and tonfa and try and tell me that those are “authentic Ninja weapons”… …they are actually Okinawan. That’s kind of like saying the crossbow is an authentic American Indian weapon.

"American Ninja" - Someone who studies borrowed ideas from traditional combat tested Japanese arts, mixed in some other arts techniques to fill in the gaps that their own lack of complete training has caused them to mix. Stir in a health dose of contempt for all things traditional, and an abject fear of questioning by those who may just know more than them. Shake on a discussion forum for 30 posts, pour. Top with a sour cherry.

 

[RRouuselot]

"American Ninja" - Someone who studies borrowed ideas from traditional combat tested Japanese arts, mixed in some other arts techniques to fill in the gaps that their own lack of complete training has caused them to mix. Stir in a health dose of contempt for all things traditional, and an abject fear of questioning by those who may just know more than them. Shake on a discussion forum for 30 posts, pour. Top with a sour cherry.

That is pricless :rofl:
I was thinking maybe "top with a sour grape".......

 

[Bester]

Ok, joke that some will get, and others simply be pissed about aside.


My problem with this forum is it seems to cater only to a select, elitist few. You can not ask certain questions because that is "bashing". Other questions when asked you are told to "go search", rudely. Anyone who has any real traditional training or experience is told to "Go Away".

How does this censorship help?

There are enough quality martial arts instructors excluded by this forum as included.

What is American Ninjutsu?
You limit the scope to 3 people. 2 with questionable backgrounds, though we are not allowed to ask those questions without moderator abuse of power and tag teaming.
What about all those others who lie just outside the line?
If we have American Ninjutsu, do we have English Ninjutsu? African Ninjutsu? etc?

"Stop being a TROLL!!!" is all I hear.
Well, I am asking questions. If that is trolling, then shut the damn board down already.

If the world insists that the art you study is crap, and everywhere you go you hear the same comments about its origins being fraudulent, maybe, just maybe, you might want to take the fingers out of your ears and listen?

I ask questions. I make comments. You can react, or respond.
Why is it that whenever I ask questions in here, the moderator and his tag team partner there get defensive, react negatively and keep ordering me to leave?

I have questions on Hayes. This is where you are supposed to ask them. Why am I being instructed to post them in the wrong forum?

I have questions on Tew. This is where you are supposed to ask them. Why am I being instructed not only not post them, but to leave unless I am a student of his?

Why all the fear of simple questions?
Why the inability to respond to them politely?
Why the accusations of agendas, trolling, etc?
Why is the scope of this forum so narrowly defined?

I will probable not be around to see any replies. I'm sure I'll be seeing a vacation shortly for daring to ask questions in this forum.

 

[gmunoz]

Despite my reputation, I'd rather not.Again, I saw it as a jest. If you did not see it this way, the proper thing to do was to report the post and not come back with an insult.It is, and your goal is laudable. I fervantly hope to see you succeed. The example has to start at home. To say the Ninjutsu forums have been a hot bed of controversy would be an understatement. I have not seen much "discussion"; I have, however, seen an immense amount of cyber dueling. Educate, don't argue. I 100% agree with you. But again, the example must start with the members of the forum.
The only people that can make this forum safe for those of you studying this western ninjustsu or American or whatever you like to call yourselves, is you. When you engage in debate without seeing an assassin behind every post, things will get better. If I see a level of professionalism from the regular posters of this forum that is not being met by the visitors or then see deliberate sabotage, then I can take action. As it stands now, I can only react to the fires as they flare. Bob has gone a long way to give you guys a forum and he would like to see it succeed. I will work with you, but you have to meet me half way.
Seig

Good enough. I will report any and all suspicious posts from traditionalists as bad posts and pray to God someone does something about it. I sure hope you keep your end of the bargain.

 

[Bester]

Can we please get back to the topic here?

 

[Moko]

Here Comes Krystal Nacht as sponsored by the "American Ninjer" wanna-bes. What a giggle.

Enson, Thanks for your wonderful attempt to educate a younin(sic) like me. While the sentiment may be true your facts are grossly incorrect. This forum has been instigated not to research your 'style' but to support and validate your 'style'.

All of your little arguments to date are subjective. Everyone posting in here is subjected to a two-part questioning process; Does this person train in a fraudulent art as support by our little cabal or do they train in a verifiable system; and Are they saying nice things about us or asking questions? A negative answer to both parts of the questions and the you let slip your intellectual chihuahuas of sniping and dispersions. Truly fearsome.

Instead any attempt to quantify they various skill levels of the various wanna-be sokes goes down in a flurry of posts calling for a martial cleansing. Nice. Brown is your favourite shirt colour?

Not there is anything wrong with this NOT being a place where Ninjutsu is discussed, there is nothing wrong with this being a comfort zone for you. It's OK to have a blankie. But if this is the unworded aim of this "American Ninjutsu" ( And Snowjob take note of how the American Ninjers types spell the name of HamandCheeses "art") forum then your mission statement or vision at the beginning of it should be changed, Enson.

I do think that it is incorrect and you have misled Kaith with your agenda for this forum. I have attempted to start an intellectual discussion of the various level of claims of the myriad of ninjer Sokey-Dokeys out there but am met with yapping of the upmost(sic) ineffectiness.

And now one of the Chihuahua brothers wants to report every post. Oh Gawd that's hilarious. Let me guess, leibensraum? uh huh.

Re-check your own agenda Enson then come back when you can be more subjective about this whole thing. You are too close to it to be objective. Nor would I go about shaking your little finger at people and saying they have an agenda.

I am an ignorant man. There's tons I don't know and would love to. I have a buddy who's a robotics prof. Damn. Cool. I am utterly ignorant of robotics. The definition of ignorant is " 1 having or showing a lack of knowledge or of education in things in general. 2 uninformed about or unaware of a specific subject 3 lacking social training." The Penguin English dictionary.

Now flip on over to the Cross-stepping thread. There you are asking about cross-stepping. Then pages of uses and how it is a valid technique in many arts, because, well it is. And yet you go on to argue for pages with all the other people there how he, Enson, doesn't think it's valid as it's not in his system. No agenda there right?

Personally I think your little sensei-boy will come out OK if we do a public ranking on his claims. I think he has some training years ago in Budo, what would now be called dated or Jurriasic training by us with "real agendas" bwahahaha. He would certainly beat out types like Ferbes and Dux and Duncan in turn his claim is not as strong as Hayes shihan or possibly Bussey. Bottom of the list would be ninja clowns like Ashida Kim, those guys in Australia and buddy who trains in the "swampest places". Would it come out that Tew's, style is a fraudulent style of ninjutsu, sure. You already now this Enson but refuse to believe it. His style of dance is your comfort zone. This forum is not about growth, or learning, it's about what feels good to you. It feels good to tell the guys who do not train in what you want to train in that they are wrong. Good for you. Seems like sort of a closed mind to me.

Carry on as if you were normal.

If anyone else wants to start thread in the Traditional section whereby we can discuss the various scoring points for the frauds and maybe set up a group of objective critiera with which to measure them all by, I would fully support it. I have put some thought into it ealrier on in this thread, thinking it was called for however this is the wrong place for objective intellectual intercourse.

 

[Bester]

Well said Moko. Well said indeed.


Now, gmuñoz we can go back to discussing the parameters for this area, those that have been excluded, and those that have been somehow granted "legitimacy" OR we can go back to your personal vendetta against me, and anyone who does not wish to accept things without question.

I thought this thread was to discuss the charter for this section, not to play out you and your tag-team partners personal issues and problems.

 

[heretic888]

Oye vey, guys. Just calm down, okay??

No need to make things so personal.

 

[RRouuselot]

Oye vey, guys. Just calm down, okay??

No need to make things so personal.

Granted this thread has gone off topic and gotten somewhat personal but I think there are some valid issues and personalities that need to be addressed. I asked someone in another thread a simple question about how they trained at home and was immediately pounced on in tag team by two members of this thread. It wasn’t so much that they got on my case (anyone that knows me on here knows someone is always on my case about something around here) but the fact that such a simple question drew such intense fire. I would hate to see what would happen if I asked what color his guy is……I suppose I would receive “negative dings” until the end of time.

Moving on……..

So please explain it do a dumb karate guy like me…….how is “American Ninja” stuff different from plain ol’ run of the mill Japanese Ninja stuff.
I have seen ninja training here in Japan, as a matter of fact I have a friend of over 20 years that is now training in Ninjutsu in Japan (nidan I think) as well as one other “newer” friend doing the same.
I have also seen Rick Tew’s website and watched the sample training videos he has placed on there.
So feel free to help me understand…….I am all ears.

 

[RRouuselot]

All this is from Rick Tew’s website:

POINTS OF REALITY
Too often in the martial arts, students learn self-defense that is unrealistic and possibly detrimental to the defender. When it comes to practicality, fight with facts, don't be fooled by your training.
1)Most fights end up on the ground.
Prepare by improving your grappling skills.
2)There are no rules and no judges in combat.
If it works, use it, and don't stop until it does.
3)Kicks above the waist are unrealistic.
It is better to be safe than sorry.
4)How you train is how you will fight.
If it is not contact you will be surprised.
5)Point sparring is not realistic for true combat.
Pull your punches and pull your chances.
6)Most people punch to the face or head.
Get used to hooks and crosses, wild and fast.
7)Attackers don't hold their punch in the air.
Learn to control your opponent, not dance around a frozen one.
8)Everything is forgotten in a fight.
All defenses will be natural reactions from years of practice.
9)Punches and kicks can hurt you too.
The attacker might also be prepared, do not underestimate an opponent.
10)Most punches and kicks are off target, thus useless.
Don't waste energy, focus on primary striking areas.

1) This is some PR the Gracies came up with years ago. I have yet to see any stats on it to prove it one way or the other. From my own personal experiences and from seeing other fights I would say that figure is false.
2) No s****, now tell us something we don’t know.
3) Funny I saw Rick Tew do not one but damn near all of his kicks to the head on his training videos. Specifically tape #2 & #4....especially #4!!!! In video #4 the kicks looked like they came straight out of a Tae Kwan Do Class 101 manual, mostly to the head and many high spinning back kicks, with one or two Muay Thai knee strikes thrown in and some hand movements that can be seen in ½ dozen different MA.
4) 4,5,6,7…..common sense.
8) I beg to differ.
9) still not very enlightening.
10) Most people swing in a fit of rage….maybe that is a contributing factor.

So would you say Rick Tew is a good representation of what American Ninjutsu is?

 

[gmunoz]

Granted this thread has gone off topic and gotten somewhat personal but I think there are some valid issues and personalities that need to be addressed. I asked someone in another thread a simple question about how they trained at home and was immediately pounced on in tag team by two members of this thread. It wasn’t so much that they got on my case (anyone that knows me on here knows someone is always on my case about something around here) but the fact that such a simple question drew such intense fire. I would hate to see what would happen if I asked what color his guy is……I suppose I would receive “negative dings” until the end of time.

Moving on……..

So please explain it do a dumb karate guy like me…….how is “American Ninja” stuff different from plain ol’ run of the mill Japanese Ninja stuff.
I have seen ninja training here in Japan, as a matter of fact I have a friend of over 20 years that is now training in Ninjutsu in Japan (nidan I think) as well as one other “newer” friend doing the same.
I have also seen Rick Tew’s website and watched the sample training videos he has placed on there.
So feel free to help me understand…….I am all ears.

The only real difference intended for this forum was to stop the negative posts against anyone not being in X-kan. So, Kaith approved an forum stating that this was for those 3 ( for now) styles claiming to have an American founder having legitimate ninjutsu training, of which all 3 have been verified whether or not anyone says they're good or not, ranked high enough or not. These do not have Japanese founders, but American founders. The charter description explains this. Again more schools showing an American founder with legitimate ninjutsu training can qualify. It all goes to what their claims are. Do they claim to teach as in Japan or not?