What IS a Ninja?

[Cryozombie]

So i supose that a tanegashima was a wisard or warlock magic stick. And people saw it as a magic stick that sounded like thunder and voila! a flying bird went down. Well i see that our backgrounds are verry diferent. So in the ashikaga shogunate's period in history the word ninja already existed. "People who aren't idiot's" please don't insult me. One of many tora no maki in the museum of koga. If those books are not recomended then what should be or is a true sourse of authentic ninja knowledge. You can see for youre selves straight ninja swords in those museum displays. God... If a warrior needed a sword right away anything would do. God ... Well to me mr. Hayes has been a great influence in my knowledge. Great experiences and many happiness from his teachings.And no i'm not a heretic i have a strong believe in God.Unheard in japan and talked in the internet? Did i said something like there's this ninjutsu ryu or some other invented name; Like the Takagure dojo of haru or the makato clan of kinjo? Experience tells me that when someone is against someone his friends sudenly rise up against the up coming threat. Such behavior is expected. If i was wrong i apologise but if not you can all use you're psychology on me. Hmmm reminds me of the art of war. Don't tell me that that ancient book is also not to be read. So then what is a ninja acording to you?

???

 

[Don Roley]

When ever you say "Wrong" Eliminate that word and write your own knowledge please. If not read and READ some more.

Boy, you really seem to think I owe you something. Guess what, you are wrong again.

Let me be clear, I think I have already done you a great service. The first part of a the knowledge cycle is conscious incompetence. We know that we do not know. That is why you won't find me in an airline cockpit. The danger is when we think we know, but do not. You thought you knew, I told you that you did not, now you are free to make better use of your time.

The thing is, for every incorrect sentence you write it would probably take about a paragraph to explain why you are wrong and spell out the truth in little words that you could understand. And considering the long, rather strange, posts that you make that would take more time than I am willing to put in. Especially since you do not seem to be the most eager to admit your error or lack of knowledge and we would get into a debate instead of you just accepting the facts and learning from them. I feel like I am dealing with Bruce Calkins again.

Here is an example of what I am talking about from my piece on the Koga ryu.

A young Fujita had sought adventure by running away and joining some Yamabushi on their pilgrimage. This may sound strange, but the Yamabushi preached a religion where they would exercise and perform religious austerities in holy places. This allowed them to store up on holy energy that they would convey onto others as they walked on their pilgrimages in exchange for donations. An indispensable part of their service was a display of their holy powers to those who were considering giving donations. Like tent side revivalist meetings these miracles tended to be flashy and impressive. Walking on hot coals, running up ladders made of swords and sticking oneself with many needles were among the many devices used by some of the practitioners. Also like some of the revivalist meetings in America, some or the practitioners were better at being flashy than holy. But it was a great show. In short, for a young Japanese boy at the time it was the closest equivalent to running away to join the circus.

Now, out of all that the only thing you will find in Fujita's biography or autobiography is the reference to him running off to be with the Yamabushi. All the rest were from other sources. The typical, educated Japanese would already know this type of thing. Since the target audience was well educated Japanese, the biography or Fujita felt no more need to mention all the rest of the stuff than I would feel in telling who won the battle at the Alamo.

To understand a lot of ninjutsu history, you can't go straight to the ninjutsu stuff. You have to understand all the other stuff that the sources in Japanese are all built on and consider to be common knowledge. You might note that the source Heretic888 quoted at you was not a ninjutsu source per se. But it is obvious he knows his stuff far better than you ever will. The truth is sometimes more difficult to explain than a something unburdoned by the need to stick to facts. Hence it takes more of my time to write a correction than it would be for you to write more incorrect knowledge. Our problem is solved if you merely sit, listen and learn from all the people here who know more than you. We are glad to answer questions for the most part, but first you have to prove that you want to learn instead of impress us.

So if you want to know more about the ninja and their history, you need to do better research and not demand people lay things out on a sliver platter for you. If you want to know the reality of the ninja, wait a while and maybe I will come out with that book I keep talking about. But as things stand, I want to stop the spread of bad information like yours and my purpose is not to make easily availible information for folks like Sojobow and yourself.

 

[Don Roley]

Well bottom line is that my first training lessons in 1988 were in togakure ryu. From 1988 till 1991. I was train in intonjutsu. true fact is that today if hatsumi is not teaching togakure,kumogakure or gyokkoshin one can not say that is training in ninjutsu; simply some form of budo. Actually just the other day i learned to tie a belt. The training was always with a black t-shirt with a nin simbol and a black karate pant. There was few wooded or paded weapons. We trained sometimes with sharp knives and most training sesions were outdoors. So what is a correct practice. Yes there was a lot of taijutsu. Always went to bed in pain and sometimes i slept in class when in college.

Please try to get your stories straight.

In this thread you state all of the following.

Hi ,i'm a beginner. Can anybody tell me the difference betwen Ninjutsu and Ninjitsu?

Thanks. I'm just starting in the martial arts. I'm just learning how to tie the belt, bowing, warm-ups, basic postures, rolls, ect...

I started this i guess like many. By Mr. Hayes books on my own since where i live ninjutsu it's very ilegall. I wrote to Mr. Hayes in 1997 and then he was sending me this newsletter called the Musubi till 1999.

That entire thread is of great interest. Do you realize you started off trying to say you were training under a fifth dan, and then swotched your story to a second dan? And now you are trying to say you were training way back in 1988.

Yeah, I am glad you mentioned our past encounter. I had forgotten about you and did a search of your past posts. It is real interesting that you have tried to make it sound like you know something about the ancient texts of ninjutsu in the Koga museum when in this thread you don't even know what Sakki, the Bansenshukai or the Ninpiden is.

 

[Teppan]

When i started posting i feelt very impress by all the knowledge that was written in here. When someone writes a question instead of answering some of you guys just wait and wait till someone else writes and idea; and instead of correcting it you just go ahead pretend you guys know everything and blam! this that the other. Hey i just wrote my answer to the guy that started this threat : What is a ninja? Sudenly you wrote all that; Hey you started this. How you think that i was going to react. Of course i've always known what the bansenshukai was. Wanted to make sure who knew what? can't find that of 5th dan. His instructor was a 5th dan not him. Why confuse. In all of youre training what have you learned from the wisdom of the toda family? Or O'sensei Takamatsu's Kofuku no Shiori... Yeah way back in the 1980's.Well you don't seem to like me been here. Once you said post in the spanish forums or latin forums. i'm just not up to it today. You said what heretic888 quoted at me was not a ninjutsu sourse per se.(yeah he is youre friend) Yeah he knows his stuff ;Someone who reads the wicca?The tanegashima been a flintlock! Ashigaru - tanegashima- tanegashima - ashigaru... Is there a direct reference by me to say ikusa shinobi. that comes from japanese military history. And no i don't think ill ever learn anything from you or your book what so ever. i'm no gonna bother with you anymore, it is pointles; for what ever i write there's a direct critic. after viewing the past posts you really think i was gona exchange ideas with someone who has an answer to me intead of the answering the original post : What is a ninja? I expresed in my words and experinces what to me was a ninja. Why you didn't do the same? No mr.roley is just waiting for the answers. Why me? Man just drop it. I'll stop waisting my time with you and youre friends if that is what you want. take care people...

 

[Don Roley]

When i started posting i feelt very impress by all the knowledge that was written in here. When someone writes a question instead of answering some of you guys just wait and wait till someone else writes and idea; and instead of correcting it you just go ahead pretend you guys know everything and blam! this that the other. Hey i just wrote my answer to the guy that started this threat : What is a ninja? Sudenly you wrote all that; Hey you started this. How you think that i was going to react. Of course i've always known what the bansenshukai was. Wanted to make sure who knew what? can't find that of 5th dan. His instructor was a 5th dan not him. Why confuse. In all of youre training what have you learned from the wisdom of the toda family? Or O'sensei Takamatsu's Kofuku no Shiori... Yeah way back in the 1980's.Well you don't seem to like me been here. Once you said post in the spanish forums or latin forums. i'm just not up to it today. You said what heretic888 quoted at me was not a ninjutsu sourse per se.(yeah he is youre friend) Yeah he knows his stuff ;Someone who reads the wicca?The tanegashima been a flintlock! Ashigaru - tanegashima- tanegashima - ashigaru... Is there a direct reference by me to say ikusa shinobi. that comes from japanese military history. And no i don't think ill ever learn anything from you or your book what so ever. i'm no gonna bother with you anymore, it is pointles; for what ever i write there's a direct critic. after viewing the past posts you really think i was gona exchange ideas with someone who has an answer to me intead of the answering the original post : What is a ninja? I expresed in my words and experinces what to me was a ninja. Why you didn't do the same? No mr.roley is just waiting for the answers. Why me? Man just drop it. I'll stop waisting my time with you and youre friends if that is what you want. take care people...

Uh, yeah..... :uhyeah:

 

[Teppan]

........................


1980's = Togakure ryu ninjutsu(taijutsu,nin-gu,inton and seishin...)

1990's = Bujinkan ninjutsu(togakure ryu ninjutsu,gyokushin ryu ninjutsu, kumogakure ryu ninjutsu)

2000's = Bujinkan budo taijutsu(gyokko ryu koshijutsu,kuki shinden ryu happo hikenjutsu,shinden fudo ryu dakentaijutsu, koto ryu koppojutsu, gikan ryu koppo taijutsu and takagi yoshin ryu jutaijutsu)

...Uh, yeah:uhyeah:

 

[Teppan]

Please try to get your stories straight.

In this thread you state all of the following.







That entire thread is of great interest. Do you realize you started off trying to say you were training under a fifth dan, and then swotched your story to a second dan? And now you are trying to say you were training way back in 1988.






Of course i started in the begining of the 1980's with Mr. Hayes books. In there is the bansenchukai explained volume by volume. I repeated that :just the other day i learned to tie a belt that we trained with black t-shirts and black karate pants that where i lived ninpo is very illegal. Ofcourse i'm a biginner in this budo taijutsu art. I've never lied; simply didn't tell other facts that noone asked me. Cause hatsumi himself said: bujinkan budo taijutsu is not ninjutsu.Mr. hayes also said to-shin-do is not ninjutsu but a modern application. Please refer to hatsumis books : "Secrets of the samurai" and "The way of the ninja" same author different views. Now i think that is why some of you don't like me posting, cause some of you think that budo taijutsu is ninjutsu. When Mr. hayes went to japan and came back he started teaching what he learned in japan and he asked specificaly to learn togakure ryu. Ofcourse when he went back hatsumi was teaching something else and people thought that he was incorrect. I was a member of the nine gates institute and yes i received in the mail a news letter called the "Musubi" wich means knot. The fact is that mr.hayes went to japan 40 years ago and many don't like that either. As i said before if you are not training in togakure ryu, kumogakure ryu and gyokushin ryu you are not training in ninjutsu. So why post in a ninjutsu friendly discussion forum when youre backgrounds are in bujutsu or budo...:samurai: :ninja: just look at the cartoons are they the same. you guys :deadhorse . And thanks for the computer virus that one of you sended me...................................LATER...................:ticked:

 

[bydand]

........................


1980's = Togakure ryu ninjutsu(taijutsu,nin-gu,inton and seishin...)

1990's = Bujinkan ninjutsu(togakure ryu ninjutsu,gyokushin ryu ninjutsu, kumogakure ryu ninjutsu)

2000's = Bujinkan budo taijutsu(gyokko ryu koshijutsu,kuki shinden ryu happo hikenjutsu,shinden fudo ryu dakentaijutsu, koto ryu koppojutsu, gikan ryu koppo taijutsu and takagi yoshin ryu jutaijutsu)

...Uh, yeah:uhyeah:

Just looked up a couple of older books I had bought years ago, and while printed in late 80"s lists the ones you have showing up in the 2000's. The only difference I see is my list doesn't have Kuki... and you have listed "gikan ryu koppo taijutsu" while mine is "gikan ryu koppojutsu"

Could just be different way of saying the same thing because I do not understand the Japanese language.

 

[Teppan]

Just looked up a couple of older books I had bought years ago, and while printed in late 80"s lists the ones you have showing up in the 2000's. The only difference I see is my list doesn't have Kuki... and you have listed "gikan ryu koppo taijutsu" while mine is "gikan ryu koppojutsu"

Could just be different way of saying the same thing because I do not understand the Japanese language.

Yes i think it's the same. The japanese caracters for both are the same. When you go to www.bujinkan.com you'll notice the caracter for tai and for jutsu. Right there in hatsumi's picture.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Teppan you have to understand that Don is one of the few people who have researched the history of the Bujinkan. Another such individual would be Paul Richardson. There are more but not many of them are as vocal as Don or Paul. You have stated that you started learning from Hayes books and are just now learning from an instructor. Understand that the Japanese language and communication skills is complex for many of us to understand. Therefore when Stephen Hayes wrote his books he was interpreting what he thought was correct. Soke's art is highly misunderstood in many regards because of this. Your perceptions based on your early readings are not what the mainstream Bujinkan follows as based on the teaching's of Soke. We have many, many people who go regularly to Japan now and quite a few who actually live there. (many people on this board have been to Japan to train at the Hombu dojo) These individuals (those that live in Japan and go regularly) have been able to open up the truth about Budo Taijutsu. Individual's like Shihan Mark Lithgow, Shihan Bill Masse, Shihan Mike Pierce, Shihan Phil Legare, Sensei Mark O'Brien, Sensei Don Roley and many more have been able to pass on the true teachings. I would, like you try and learn more than preach. In this way we can become more knowledgeable and better practitioners of Budo Taijutsu.

 

[Don Roley]

Of course i started in the begining of the 1980's with Mr. Hayes books. In there is the bansenchukai explained volume by volume. I repeated that :just the other day i learned to tie a belt that we trained with black t-shirts and black karate pants that where i lived ninpo is very illegal. Ofcourse i'm a biginner in this budo taijutsu art. I've never lied; simply didn't tell other facts that noone asked me. Cause hatsumi himself said: bujinkan budo taijutsu is not ninjutsu.Mr. hayes also said to-shin-do is not ninjutsu but a modern application. Please refer to hatsumis books : "Secrets of the samurai" and "The way of the ninja" same author different views. Now i think that is why some of you don't like me posting, cause some of you think that budo taijutsu is ninjutsu. When Mr. hayes went to japan and came back he started teaching what he learned in japan and he asked specificaly to learn togakure ryu. Ofcourse when he went back hatsumi was teaching something else and people thought that he was incorrect. I was a member of the nine gates institute and yes i received in the mail a news letter called the "Musubi" wich means knot. The fact is that mr.hayes went to japan 40 years ago and many don't like that either. As i said before if you are not training in togakure ryu, kumogakure ryu and gyokushin ryu you are not training in ninjutsu. So why post in a ninjutsu friendly discussion forum when youre backgrounds are in bujutsu or budo...:samurai: :ninja: just look at the cartoons are they the same. you guys :deadhorse . And thanks for the computer virus that one of you sended me...................................LATER...................:ticked:

You know, there are so many inaccuracies in the above I do not know where to start in correcting them. So let us just stick with the facts.

You can't read Japanese and only about six months ago you were asking if Ron Duncan and the Koga ryu were legit and asking how to tie a belt. Hence, all your efforts have not been as well spent as someone who knows what they are doing.

You were not a student until last year. Grabbing some book that says "ninjutsu" on the cover and playing with the stuff about hiding is not practicing ninjutsu. It is the live action version of Dungeons and Dragons.


If you abandon all your desires to be taken as anything more than a rank begginer, then you stand a chance of learning something here. But based on past experiences, I would not bet on you being able to just admit you are wrong and learn from your mistakes. I expect more arguing from you. And as much as I dislike it, I will have to point out just how wrong you are so that others are not led astray by what you write.

 

[Kreth]

Of course i started in the begining of the 1980's with Mr. Hayes books.

and

As i said before if you are not training in togakure ryu, kumogakure ryu and gyokushin ryu you are not training in ninjutsu. So why post in a ninjutsu friendly discussion forum when youre backgrounds are in bujutsu or budo...

It does seem rather strange that someone who was training in ninjutsu 20-odd years ago would have made this post less than a year ago. :idunno:

 

[nighthawk_9]

Hello to everyone. My name is John Rodriguez. I'm 47 years old and a great friend of joseph who is 38. (teppan) I instructed 8 or 10 guys back there in Puerto Rico by 1987 or 1988. I live in New Jersey i was one of those guys that whent to all of the festivals and work shops in Ohio back in the 80's. I have a nice house down there in Puerto Rico. On summers i went down there it's a very nice place. Teppan was one of the most stuborn students that i had down there yet one of the most skilled. I usually don't write in the net. The reason that i'm writing to you people is that the computer that joseph used was a computer from a local library. I think it was very disrespectful of someone sending him a virus via his e-mail. The federal baureau of investigation is looking in to it as we speak. I told Joseph to let it go so he won't be posting in here anymore. This is my first, only and last time i will write in here. Thanks for the brief moment.

 

[bydand]

What a load.

 

[saru1968]

What a load.

of ?

 

[shesulsa]

Hello to everyone. My name is John Rodriguez. I'm 47 years old and a great friend of joseph who is 38. (teppan) I instructed 8 or 10 guys back there in Puerto Rico by 1987 or 1988. I live in New Jersey i was one of those guys that whent to all of the festivals and work shops in Ohio back in the 80's. I have a nice house down there in Puerto Rico. On summers i went down there it's a very nice place. Teppan was one of the most stuborn students that i had down there yet one of the most skilled. I usually don't write in the net. The reason that i'm writing to you people is that the computer that joseph used was a computer from a local library. I think it was very disrespectful of someone sending him a virus via his e-mail. The federal baureau of investigation is looking in to it as we speak. I told Joseph to let it go so he won't be posting in here anymore. This is my first, only and last time i will write in here. Thanks for the brief moment.

First of all, your IP address traces to Puerto Rico meaning you lied about your location in your registration profile.

Second, this site does not cause viruses on computers - this is slanderous and we don't appreciate it. If you don't like this site, then close your account and leave, but do not accuse MartialTalk of spreading viruses. Any further accusations can be discussed with Bob Hubbard directly.

 

[Don Roley]

First of all, your IP address traces to Puerto Rico meaning you lied about your location in your registration profile.

When will they learn? When person "A" is getting slamed because of silly statements and the like and screen name "B" shows up to defend him, it sets off all sorts of alarms.

And I am sure that "Teppan" will try to say that "John" was merely visiting his home in Puerto Rico when he posted, but gave NJ because that is where he lives most of the time.

But as someone who lives in Japan and gets back to America every few years, I can tell you that where ever I am is where my orientation is. So when "John" tried saying,

I instructed 8 or 10 guys back there in Puerto Rico

and

I have a nice house down there in Puerto Rico.

it is clear that he was trying to get us to think he was not in Puerto Rico.

Not to mention that "John's" account contradicts much of what Teppan used to try to get us to believe. That is the problem with lying, you have to work to keep your story straight. And the guys that do not have the brains to impress others with honest labor are not the ones with enough grey matter to stick to a consistant story.

On one hand, you really have to pity guys like this. They have to lead pretty pathetic lives if impressing a lot of people on an internet forum with their posturing has any sort of attraction. But on the other, the damage they do to the information base kind of makes it hard to have pity on them.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

It is interesting what lengths losers will go to to make themselves feel like big people. 6 accounts found, banned. Local FBI office called. Much laughter on the part of the agents I spoke with. But, please contact them. One of the agents still owes me coffee from our last meeting.

As to viruses, read this:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42063
Was posted last time some loser accused this site of spreading them. There is no proof, period.

Anyway, back to talk about guys in masks, smoke bombs and sneaking around in black PJs while kicking alot of ***.

 

[Don Roley]

It is interesting what lengths losers will go to to make themselves feel like big people. 6 accounts found, banned.

6?

Man, there are some big losers out there.

Maybe you can just cut off all the posts in this thread by the banned accounts and those responding to them and move it to the horror story section. I would love to hear more, but don't want a thread hijacked by these losers.

 

[thardey]

So I am looking at this from an extremely western perspective.

The only martial arts I do are western-based. However, some recent situations have made me curious about far-eastern culture and thinking, and something about this discussion seems like a place to understand the philosophy. I guess it's the samurai/shinobi comparison - how some people over-simplify it by saying they were opposites, while others say that shinobi/ninja were a special branch within the saumurai. I guess my western mindset has a hard time with separating the "class/caste" of samurai from the "job" of soldier. I also have a hard time reconciling the concept of "Bushido" with the purported methods of the "ninja".

So, I think that my understanding of this culture is hindered until I can start from the right mindset. So, if I can summarize what I have learned from this forum, with all respect, could you help straighten out some of the "non-eastern" way of thinking?

So, here's my ignorant speculation, please help me figure this out.

First, "shinobi" seems to be the most respectful term for this group of people. Is it disrespectful to use the term "ninja"?

Second, in competitive situations, I have found the value of first allowing people to underestimate me (football, sparring, debating, etc), until they think that I am not a threat to them. (Sometimes allowing them to look down on me for months.) Then, when I surprise them with some skill or technique that they didn't think I was capable of, they start wondering what else I can do. Before I know it, they imagine that I have almost supernatural ability, because their own imagination runs amok. People have been told on more than one occasion that I can "Do anything". Which of course I can't. But I don't tell my competitors that.

It seems that the public vew of shinobi is like that. Either people dismiss them as nothing more than theives and assassins, or they think they can jump over 10ft walls.
Is it likely that the shinobi realized the value of underestimation that I have, and purposely set out to spread different stories to mess with their enemies minds, while making their skill highly coveted by their allies?

Wouldn't it be easy to tell people that "no, I'm not anything special -- I'm just a merchant" and then let someone see you do a magic trick and dissappear. They will spread your reputation faster than you ever could.

-But again, I don't know if that kind of thinking even has a place in the eastern mindset.- I'm from the northwest states, and that kind of thinking is relatively cultural. I went to southern Cal, for college, and they had no idea what I was doing. (BTW, it worked really well there.)

Third, if the shinobi were trying to gather information, it would make sense to appear harmless -- a farmer, a merchant, a gardener, a musician, etc. so that people will keep their guard down and share information freeley. If that's the case, a working-class person wouldn't carry either a katana or anything distincly "ninja", but a general, working class waikizashi, right? (That's assuming that the working class carried waikizashi.)

Then, if I were a shinobi, I would dress as a merchant, (even if I was a samurai) drink some saki at the local pub, and sit around and tell legends about these crazy ninja-types, while gathering information. Thus the legend will be planted, watered and nurtured, and my mission would be accomplished.

I don't know, does it make sense? Is that even part of the Japanese way of thinking?

With all respect for a totally foreign culture. :asian:


-T