What Good are Forms?

[TSDTexan]

I was stating an opinion. I wasn't trying to convince anyone. I've been down that road before. Karate is kata, kata is karate. They are inseparable. In my opinion. You may someday come to that realization yourself. Or not.

the absence of kata is the absence of authentic karate. Kata is the seed, the blueprint and the foundation of traditional Okinawan karate.

if a school only taught kumite and kihon then they have abandoned the tactics, strategy, body conditioning and gross motor coding needed for muscle memory.

Without kata you have no record from which to create promise kumite (yakusoku kumite) commonly called 1 steps. without 1 steps you only have free sparring (jiyu kumite) whichs looks like poorly executed kickboxing.

Without kata, karate looses its grappling intelligence... devolving into just a standup striking sport. The tactical knowhow of the takedowns, sweeps and throws and when/where/how of their application is lost... to the detriment of the art.

which is such a watering down of the art to the degree, that it stopped being the art and has become an imitation. Karate in name only.

 

[TSDTexan]

Personally, I see karate as a combination of kihon, kata, and kumite, and I have trouble seeing it as karate training without all three bring present. You could train to strike like Lyoto Machida without doing kata, sure, but in my mind I wouldn't call that fight training "training in Shotokan karate."

Likewise, I also struggle with the assertion that "karate is kata" because I think it throws kumite (and kihon) by the wayside. If you just did Shotokan's forms in a park like non-combative Tai Chi groups, is that still really Shotokan karate? To me, I'm not sure it is.

They (the Machidas) still teach the shotokan forms in their karate dojos.

 

[Mitlov]

They (the Machidas) still teach the shotokan forms in their karate dojos.

I didn't mean to suggest otherwise. I've pointed out the same thing in other threads. I meant that if somebody emulated Machida's striking style without training with kihon or kata, I wouldn't call that hypothetical training "doing karate."

Edit: that said, I don't think that the kata has to be the primary focus to be "karate," or "real karate," or "authentic karate."

 

[TSDTexan]

I didn't mean to suggest otherwise. I've pointed out the same thing in other threads. I meant that if somebody emulated Machida's striking style without training with kihon or kata, I wouldn't call that hypothetical training "doing karate."

agreed.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

if a school only taught kumite and kihon then they have abandoned the tactics, strategy, body conditioning and gross motor coding needed for muscle memory.

But does it necessarily follow that if they don't do kata, they only do what's left in a school that does kata? Could they not use other methods in place of kata?

 

[Mitlov]

But does it necessarily follow that if they don't do kata, they only do what's left in a school that does kata? Could they not use other methods in place of kata?

Absolutely they could. I personally wouldn't call it "karate" without forms, but that doesn't make it worse.

Like how I don't think ice cream can be ice cream without dairy, but it can still be a great dessert. See: sorbet.

 

[TSDTexan]

But does it necessarily follow that if they don't do kata, they only do what's left in a school that does kata? Could they not use other methods in place of kata?

well, if they threw out the kata, then they never knew what it was.

it would be like throwing out a pc and server mainframe and buying a box of pencils and notebooks... without ever learning what the computers did.

You could say that kata is the logic and coherence of the art. Both the operating system and the soul of it.

kata solo practice was paired with partner drills that came directly from the kata. what we call one steps.
two sides of a coin.

kata trains the body how to maintain proper structure while attacking and defending.

kata conditions the body. Both in how to breathe while fighting, and receive impacts (more in NahaTe traditions like gojo or Uechi than the other two like ShuriTe or TomiriTe)

Bunkai is the analysis of kata to distill or unpack the strategy and tactics of a series of paterned movements

i dont have the time right now, class is in 30 minutes, but i will follow this up with you later.
(i promise)

 

[Gerry Seymour]

well, if they threw out the kata, then they never knew what it was.

it would be like throwing out a pc and server mainframe and buying a box of pencils and notebooks... without ever learning what the computers did.

You could say that kata is the logic and coherence of the art. Both the operating system and the soul of it.

kata solo practice was paired with partner drills that came directly from the kata. what we call one steps.
two sides of a coin.

kata trains the body how to maintain proper structure while attacking and defending.

kata conditions the body. Both in how to breathe while fighting, and receive impacts (more in NahaTe traditions like gojo or Uechi than the other two like ShuriTe or TomiriTe)

Bunkai is the analysis of kata to distill or unpack the strategy and tactics of a series of paterned movements

i dont have the time right now, class is in 30 minutes, but i will follow this up with you later.
(i promise)

I appreciate you trying to explain your view. I can't see my way to understanding it quite yet. But again, I think part of the problem I have is that I see the end result as the art. So, if someone can deliver the same skills and lessons (including the non-fighting lessons) with different methods, then I'd consider it the same art. But it sounds like changing the methods makes it no longer the same art to you, so you're defining the art at least in part by the training methods, rather than the result.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

If you like to use side kick, spin back fist combo, but this combo is not in any form that you have learned, what will you do?

Will you add this combo into one of your forms?

 

[TSDTexan]

I appreciate you trying to explain your view. I can't see my way to understanding it quite yet. But again, I think part of the problem I have is that I see the end result as the art. So, if someone can deliver the same skills and lessons (including the non-fighting lessons) with different methods, then I'd consider it the same art. But it sounds like changing the methods makes it no longer the same art to you, so you're defining the art at least in part by the training methods, rather than the result.

yeah.... the method is bound up within kata. more to come soon.

 

[pdg]

If you like to use side kick, spin back fist combo, but this combo is not in any form that you have learned, what will you do?

Will you add this combo into one of your forms?

There's no need to add it if it's not there.

In this instance, it's not about restricting yourself to only the combos present in the forms, it's more about them giving you the moves and transitions to combine as you will.

 

[Mitlov]

There's no need to add it if it's not there.

In this instance, it's not about restricting yourself to only the combos present in the forms, it's more about them giving you the moves and transitions to combine as you will.

But at least in Shotokan, it's not just that we lacked this exact combination from kata, it's that even the components of it aren't in kata. Skipping front leg side kick? I'm not sure if that's in any kata. Same with spinning backfist. You can drill them in kihon (basics), in the air and in pads. You can utilize body control and power generation principles you learned in the katas. But I really really don't see kata as encyclopedias of everything the art has to offer.

Let me put it this way. Kyokushin is one form of "real karate," right? And the axe kick is one of the signature kicks of kyokushin, right? Yet that technique doesn't appear in Kyokushin kata at all, does it? This isn't a problem if you just view kata as one of several training tools in the art. This is really hard to explain, though, if you view the forms as the sum total of what the art has to offer.

 

[Mitlov]

well, if they threw out the kata, then they never knew what it was.

it would be like throwing out a pc and server mainframe and buying a box of pencils and notebooks... without ever learning what the computers did.

You could say that kata is the logic and coherence of the art. Both the operating system and the soul of it.

kata solo practice was paired with partner drills that came directly from the kata. what we call one steps.
two sides of a coin.

kata trains the body how to maintain proper structure while attacking and defending.

kata conditions the body. Both in how to breathe while fighting, and receive impacts (more in NahaTe traditions like gojo or Uechi than the other two like ShuriTe or TomiriTe)

Bunkai is the analysis of kata to distill or unpack the strategy and tactics of a series of paterned movements

i dont have the time right now, class is in 30 minutes, but i will follow this up with you later.
(i promise)

No, it's like replacing a Linux server with a Windows server or vice versa, not like replacing a server with pen and paper. Because while kata is one way to "train the body how to maintain proper structure while attacking and defending," it's not vastly objectively more effective than all other methods of accomplishing that same task.

 

[skribs]

But at least in Shotokan, it's not just that we lacked this exact combination from kata, it's that even the components of it aren't in kata. Skipping front leg side kick? I'm not sure if that's in any kata. Same with spinning backfist. You can drill them in kihon (basics), in the air and in pads. You can utilize body control and power generation principles you learned in the katas. But I really really don't see kata as encyclopedias of everything the art has to offer.

Let me put it this way. Kyokushin is one form of "real karate," right? And the axe kick is one of the signature kicks of kyokushin, right? Yet that technique doesn't appear in Kyokushin kata at all, does it? This isn't a problem if you just view kata as one of several training tools in the art. This is really hard to explain, though, if you view the forms as the sum total of what the art has to offer.

That's the same thing with Taekwondo. I know the forms up through Pyongwon (4th dan form) and there a lot of kicks we learn at the intermediate belts that haven't shown up yet. There's a ton of footwork that isn't there either. If you watch someone do KKW forms and WT sparring, it would be like watching someone practice shooting hoops in basketball and then going up to bat in a baseball game.

 

[TSDTexan]

I appreciate you trying to explain your view. I can't see my way to understanding it quite yet. But again, I think part of the problem I have is that I see the end result as the art. So, if someone can deliver the same skills and lessons (including the non-fighting lessons) with different methods, then I'd consider it the same art. But it sounds like changing the methods makes it no longer the same art to you, so you're defining the art at least in part by the training methods, rather than the result.

well take a look at Iain Abernethy, as he is analyzing (bunkai) the TSD form called Kong Sang Koon, aka Shotokan's Kusanku.

He lays out the rationale for the movements.

This is a 3rd dan(or higher) tsd form, in Chuck's fighting art [which blends bjj and tsd.] it is a 3rd dan form.

There is a lot being unpacked. But there is cohesive system here. Now, typically the bunkai isn't fully disclosed so openly, this fast.

Usually a good amount of time is spent mastering the movements of the form.(solo form) and the student breaks the movements into chunks, and create partner drills (one step sparring) with progressive escalating resistance.

but the honto bunkai... or canonical/official analysis and meaning of a 3rd dan form would be typically disclosed at 5th or perhaps even 6th.

Part of the problem is too many people were rushed through to instructor grades and sent out to plant schools before ever receiving the deeper things of blackbelt forms... so stuff gets lost and falls out of the curriculum.
(mainly talking about WW2 and Korean war era US Serviceman geting 18 month BBs, znd being sent back stateside to open dojos, and perpetuate the art.

eventually, people have a shallow understanding of a form at best.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

This form has recorded the side kick, spin back fist combo at 0.18 - 0.20. My concern is if you have never seen this form, how will you even know that side kick, spin back fist combo even exist?

If flying side kick is not in your form, do you think one day you will just figure it out all by yourself?

Who's responsibility is it to record valuable information in a form for the future generation?

 

[TSDTexan]

No, it's like replacing a Linux server with a Windows server or vice versa, not like replacing a server with pen and paper. Because while kata is one way to "train the body how to maintain proper structure while attacking and defending," it's not vastly objectively more effective than all other methods of accomplishing that same task.

well that is just one of the many things that kata practice produces. But i never said kata is "more effective a method" then something else.

its simply an example of something that kata utilization provides, among many.

I should dig out that thread on why forms have an impact on speed and hardwireing motor skill neural pathways.

 

[Mitlov]

This form has recorded the side kick, spin back fist combo at 0.18 - 0.20. My concern is if you have never seen this form, how will you even know that side kick, spin back fist combo even exist?

...

If flying side kick is not in your form, do you think one day you will just figure it out all by yourself?

Who's responsibility is it to record valuable information in a form for the future generation?

Is this a real question? Same way that fencers and boxers transmit combinations from decade to decade down the line without having kata...through continuous lineages of coaching and competition.

 

[Mitlov]

well take a look at Iain Abernethy, as he is analyzing (bunkai) the TSD form called Kong Sang Koon, aka Shotokan's Kusanku.

He lays out the rationale for the movements.

This is a 3rd dan(or higher) tsd form, in Chuck's fighting art [which blends bjj and tsd.] it is a 3rd dan form.

There is a lot being unpacked. But there is cohesive system here. Now, typically the bunkai isn't fully disclosed so openly, this fast.

Usually a good amount of time is spent mastering the movements of the form.(solo form) and the student breaks the movements into chunks, and create partner drills (one step sparring) with progressive escalating resistance.

but the honto bunkai... or canonical/official analysis and meaning of a 3rd dan form would be typically disclosed at 5th or perhaps even 6th.

Part of the problem is too many people were rushed through to instructor grades and sent out to plant schools before ever receiving the deeper things of blackbelt forms... so stuff gets lost and falls out of the curriculum.
(mainly talking about WW2 and Korean war era US Serviceman geting 18 month BBs, znd being sent back stateside to open dojos, and perpetuate the art.

eventually, people have a shallow understanding of a form at best.

Not sure whether I should:

(1) be pedantic and point out that Kusanku is the Okinanwan name and it's called Kanku Dai in Shotokan, or

(2) point out that it's not a true Chuck Norris bunkai if no bears were round-kicked

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Is this a real question? Same way that fencers and boxers transmit combinations from decade to decade down the line without having kata...through continuous lineages of coaching and competition.

If all the MA techniques (such as fencing skill and boxing skill) are recorded in the form, it's easier to pass that information from one generation down to the next generation.

For example, you can teach 24 different throws as throw 1, throw 2, … throw 24. You can also teach a throwing form that contain all 24 throws.

The following form (I created it) records 24 different throws.

​

The following form (also I created it) records 13 different posture training. The order is not important. The content is important. By using this form, students can easily remember all 13 postures.